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MMC - 10/08 Chariot
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
MMC - 10/08 Chariot // Work in Progress
Post by Finis // Oct 10, 2008, 6:46pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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This will be an Egyptian war chariot.
I haven't done any TS'ing in a while. I won't be able to spend much time on this due to real world demands but I have to do something fun.
I couldn't find any plans or blueprints for them but there were some descriptions and photos on the web.
Crits and suggestions welcome.
From my brief research:
Egyptian war chariots carried a driver and a fighter. Usually the fighter was an archer who also had a few short spears. The chariot corps consisted primarily of wealthy volunteers. The government would provide the horses and 5 helpers and the volunteer had to pay the helpers and other expenses. I'm not sure if he had to buy the chariot which cost a small fortune. Some infantry were assigned to the chariots in battle. They defended while turning around, finished off enemies wounded in a charge, and tried to attack enemy chariots while they turned. Most foot soldiers had bronze tipped spears and wooden hide covered shields. Some had swords. They didn't have armor.
Egyptian war chariots where light and built for speed. Enemies like Hittites used heavy ones designed to smash into infantry. The Egyptian ones were were mostly anti-chariot chariots. The archers launched volleys of arrows against enemy chariots. They would charge through infantry but the Egyptian's goal was to fire arrows at them along the way.
Wealthy civilians had chariots too. It was a symbol of wealth. Theirs were usually single person rigs with 4 spokes vs. 6 on a war chariot.
They were mostly wood. Later ones had metal parts for structural reinforcement and as sleeves or bearings vs wear. The 6 spokes were made of 6 V's which were glued together. The information I read said the spokes were attached to the hub by wrapping with wet cow intestines which hardened when dry. Why didn't they use glue? Without a good photo or illustration I'm not sure how that worked. They had replaceable wooden "tires" that were lashed to the wheels with straps that went through slots so the straps didn't touch the ground.
The horses wore saddle-like pads and the yoke was attached to them.
Here is a wheel I made tonight. It needs the slots and wrappings. |
Post by Finis // Oct 11, 2008, 10:52am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Here is a mock up I made to get the chariot and the main parts scaled so its size seems reasonable.
I think people back were not as big as now so the generals are 5.5 feet tall. The horses are 6.5 feet tall at the top of their heads. I think quarter horses are taller than that but who knows what breed the Egyptians had.
The simple scene I plan to make won't have people or horses. Good since I won't have time to model my own.
The structure of a chariot remains a mystery to me except the description in my (1956 paper) encyclopedia says that the wheels turned on the axles and the pole is connected to the axle. I'll make up my own structure for it. I saw references to wood being bent after boiling so I'll use bent poles as needed. |
Post by Finis // Oct 11, 2008, 6:45pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Some structure.
From what I could see in pictures the axle is round on its whole legnth. Since it doesn't turn I would think just the parts where the wheels are would be round. The rest of it looks like bent round poles in pictures. |
Post by Finis // Oct 12, 2008, 6:36pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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It now has more flat sided objects. I used an axle that is square under the floor area since I couldn't devise a structure using round parts that looked sturdy. A picture of King Tut's chariot shows a beveled edge for the floor. A photo of a civilian chariot shows a woven mat floor. Pictures of Roman chariots often show wooden floors but they were heavy. Descriptions of them note parts that are wrapped or bound together with strips or cord.
Since I'm inventing my own structure for this one I'll use a wooden floor and joinery with pegs. I think I'll make the "wall" a thick woven mat since, although covered with gold, King Tut's looks like that.
You crit's and suggestions are welcome.
o Any ideas about how to model or texture things wrapped with tape or cord?
(Like where the top rail connects to the vertical central post.)
o Any suggestions for how the yoke, or horn-like thing that attaches to the horses, might be connected to the pole?
Software: trueSpace 5 with texture work in Paint Shop Pro. |
Post by Finis // Oct 13, 2008, 5:39pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Floor boards, a new thicker yoke, and the screen added.
The screen was more difficult than I thought it would be. It needs to fit the hand rail and the rail below it while having a slight curve around its middle.
After trying several things I swept a thin rectangle to the edge of the hand rail and added a few edges. Then I added a layer of SDS. It took a while but I eventually fit the shape to the rails by point editing the control mesh.
The weave bump map is an altered version of a brick texture. The texture was stretched around the edges of the screen while it was a SDS object. I extracted the final mesh and found that the cylindrical projection worked fine. |
Post by Breech Block // Oct 14, 2008, 12:10am
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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This is turning out to be an excellent model and a very informative thread. Well done and keep up the good work. |
Post by Nez // Oct 14, 2008, 1:56am
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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Agreed, looks very nice, glad to see someone still using tS5 too - my work is now a mix of 5 and 7.6 depending on which PC I'm on...
This reminds me a lot of a TV programme I saw where they attempted to build a lightweight chariot using 'traditional' methods and materials - I think they were basing it on Ancient Celts rather than Egyptians, but quite similar in form and size. It was probably a Time Team episode, or something similar.... My recollection is that they went with a floor woven from fabric strips in that instance to provide a degree of 'suspension' for the rider, but I'm not entirely certain as it was some years back. It strikes me that most of your research sounds reasonable for techniques - I would imagine nicely formed 'carpentry' joints and bindings like you described - not sure how prevalent glue was that far back and it certainly would be a lot less effective than modern adhesives and would therefore only be used in certain applications I would think. Not too sure about how to model the bindings etc - I'd probably try using a small cuboid and sweeping it round the poles and then applying SDS to turn it into a 'rope'. As the scales would probably be awkward, i'd probably duplicate all the relevant components I'd be working with first and scale them up by a factor of ten first (just by altering the size in the object properties box), and scale back down again at the end....
If it's not going to be held up by horses in your final view, I'm curious as to how you intend to 'present' the chariot? Sitting in a shed waiting to be used, lying derelict/abandoned on a battlefield...?
Nice work, interested to see how it carries on. |
Post by Finis // Oct 14, 2008, 5:25am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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@ Breech Block - Thanks. This has turned out better than I thought. I've been spending more time on it than I should.
@ Nez - I'll try the "cuboid sweep". Thanks. I used TS 5 for familiarity. I have TS 7.6 but I'll wait on learning workspace until I see a more complete tool set and functional character animation. The description I read said that the spokes were made of glued parts. That's a high force area so that must have been awesome glue. If so then why wasn't it used often? If not why use it there?
I planned an after a battle picture or old battle field picture with overturned, burned, and broken (more modeling for the MMC!) chariots. That, possible animation, and that the MMC is about modeling, are why I'm modeling every part.
I might go for an exploded view construction diagram type thing with a finished item inset picture for the MMC and make an art picture later. |
Post by Nez // Oct 14, 2008, 6:09am
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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Don't know about the glue business, seems a bit odd, but may relate to whether elements/joints were subject to compression, tension, shear forces/stresses etc - come situations may have been more suitable than others...
I know what you mean about using tS5 for familiarity - I have started using the Model side of 7.6 (on my work pc and mother's pc!) and am still using tS5 at home (which can't run 7.6). The model side at least benefits from the familiarity as it's very similar to tS5, just with a few nice extras to take advantage of (fillets and chafers, arrays, bend/taper tools, light-emitting materials in LW, visible area lights and HDRI being the main ones!)
I can't use workspace yet (my work PC doesn't like it) and am in no hurry to anyway - I'm more than happy with the model side improvements I can benefit from in 7.6 (plus workspace sounds like a lot of hassle!) - if you can get a machine to run it, you might enjoy some of those new features too! HDRI is definitely cool - I used to use IBLs a lot for my lighting but HDRI gives comparable results but a lot quicker for the most part (so far).... |
Post by Finis // Oct 15, 2008, 6:36pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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I wrapped some cord around a joint and made cord ties to hold the screen. I sweept a circle around to model the cords.
After making these I remembered that Nez said to sweep a cube and then apply SDS. I tried sweeping a square into a loop shape, applying SDS, and then editing the control mesh to fit it to the screen and poles. That is easier. I'll use these cords since they are already made.
I had a frustrating time trying to boolean a hole in the screen for the cords to go through. When I tried to subtract the drill object the result was like a reverse intersection instead of subtraction. It was like a boolean add but minus the part where both objects were ... where the hole should have been.
After seeing that boolean add did what subtract should do I reversed all the normals. The booleans worked normally. No holes for the production piece yet.
I found pictures and descriptions of ancient Egyptian tools and woodworking. They had many tools and could saw, drill holes, chisel, and make joints.
http://www.terraflex.co.il/ad/egypt/trades/carpenters.htm
http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/trade/explore/woodwork.html
I might make a scene of a carpenter's shop where chariots are being made. That could show off all my modeling while also being an interesting scene. I'm spending too much time on this though so that will have to be simple. |
Post by theuns // Oct 15, 2008, 10:58pm
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theuns
Total Posts: 519
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wow, finis, very nice detail there :)
how did you do the ropes? sequential sweeps? |
Post by spacekdet // Oct 16, 2008, 6:55am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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Nice modeling but that brick pattern doesn't do it justice.
I'm thinking something along these lines (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=basketweave&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) might suit it better. |
Post by Weevil // Oct 16, 2008, 8:40am
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Weevil
Total Posts: 534
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oooohh. That's nice. Good detail you've got on there....
Unfortunately though...I may have to agree with spacedekt...it kinda looks like you're using floor tiles at the moment for it to me! But then...I'm a funny person |
Post by Finis // Oct 16, 2008, 9:41am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Thanks everyone.
@Theuns - Yes the cords are sweeps of a circle. I might make different ones using Nez's sweep + SDS method since that makes the cords adjustable.
@ Spacekdet & Weevil - It is a floor tile. I'll find an appropriate weave texture. Thanks for the search link.
The screen is supposed to be a woven mat of light but arrow resistant material. I'm thinking woven thin strips of wood, reeds, or twigs so a basket texture will be right. I like the pattern of the bricks I have there now and the colors work well with the rest of it but ... it doesn't look like a weave. |
Post by Finis // Oct 18, 2008, 5:56pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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The modeling of all 127 parts is done. Now for texturing.
1 axle, 1 front foot rail, 1 rear foot rail, 1 spine, 1 pole, 2 large pegs, 21 wheel parts x 2, 5 planks, 3 axle pins, 3 yoke parts, 1 screen, 24 screen cords, 8 screen rings, 1 rail, 8 rail cords, 1 post, 4 post cords, 20 dowels
I modeled each part and booleaned holes and slots for the pegs, dowels, pins, and parts to connect. There are a couple of dowels in slots under the front foot rail that hold the lower screen cords.
Many of the objects are sweeps or lathe items made from an 2D profile. The spine under the floor is the final surface from a SDS item plus booleans and some vertex editing. The cords began as a 2D profile which I lathed into a circle of about 8 segments. I applied SDS and edited the control mesh to fit the parts they hold. The earlier cords I made with sweeps had ends and spiraled around poles but it was too difficult to fit them well.
I'll post assembly views later. Remember that I invented this design since I found no details about their real construction. So this resembles a real chariot but is not likely to be how they were really built.
I'm using the procedural wood textures where I can. Hopefully for all the wood. That works very well for small parts but not for bent shapes. I need the grain to follow the curves. Maybe I'll make a large flat surface textured with the procedural wood, render to file, and make a seamless texture from that. I could use that on the long curved pieces. |
Post by Finis // Oct 18, 2008, 6:25pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Here are some detail pictures.
The procedural wood worked for the spokes, hub parts, and floor.
The wooden tires are held on by straps that go through slots. The straps were probably raw hide, or the cow intestines mentioned in articles, applied while wet. I made a V groove in the wheel and a matching feature on the inner curve of the tire to keep it from slipping to the side. Now I see that unless the tires were assembled in place on the wheels they couldn't be put on the wheels with my design.
I don't know what the gray disks in the hub assemblies are. They are shown in pictures of chariots. I was going to make a copper bearing on the axle but I don't want to do more modeling right now.
Egyptians had copper, which is soft, and bronze which is hard but brittle. Articles said that later chariots had metal bearings and reinforcements. I thought the axle bearing would be copper since it would have to be very round. I don't think they could have cast a bronze part with that precision nor shaped and smoothed it. |
Post by Finis // Oct 19, 2008, 7:02pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Here are some weaves for the screen.
Which screen do you recommend? A - The brick pattern I used earlier, or B,C,D, or E shown here?
I've also finished the textures since these pictures. The front foot rail is now the same wood as the pole and the truncated cones on the hubs are the same as the wheels. |
Post by Georg // Oct 20, 2008, 3:53am
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Georg
Total Posts: 270
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Very nice work, Finis, good eye for detail. I would go for D or E. E looks like a simple but strong weave that may have been used in these type of chariots. The problem with E is that is a larger pattern so that it is clearly a texture when you look at the rounded edges, This is not so obvious with D, because it is a bit more irregular.
I would suggest to change your lighting for your final renders because now it seems to float on its surface.
Georg |
Post by Steinie // Oct 20, 2008, 3:58am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I like "D" the best for a rustic weave.
The white rope looks a little too clean. Did this chariot
come straight from the Showroom Floor?
Really nice details and modeling. |
Post by Weevil // Oct 20, 2008, 11:31am
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Weevil
Total Posts: 534
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I'm gonna go for D too...
And graphically, that' very smooth well done |
Post by Breech Block // Oct 20, 2008, 3:53pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Very impressive work finis. As for the textures, IMO 'D' looks the most realistic for a working chariot or, if I were aiming to model a more ceremonial version, then I would choose 'E' as to me it looks like a more expensive material.
Good luck when it comes down to the voting. |
Post by Finis // Oct 20, 2008, 6:44pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Here is my entry for the October 2008 Monthly Modeling Challenge. |
Post by Nez // Oct 20, 2008, 10:27pm
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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I like the final 'reveal' and all the effort that's gone into the fine detail, a very interesting project. It's perhaps a bit 'clean' but it clearly is straight from the 'showroom'! |
Post by Burnart // Oct 21, 2008, 11:32am
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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This is real nice work Finis. :banana::banana: Bananas for you. |
Post by Breech Block // Oct 21, 2008, 4:09pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Great job Finis. I also like how you have maximised the use of your model by showing it in its various construction stages in your final render. |
Post by Finis // May 13, 2009, 2:41pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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I'm going to do two things with my chariot:
1. Sell it.
I'm going to improve the mesh quality and sell it on some of those web sites that sell models. What are some good ones? 3dFrog has one right?
Mesh pics later. Suggestions on improving the mesh will be appreciated.
How much do think it is worth? (127 parts, believable construction, holes and cuts modeled to receive connected parts. Review this thread for details.)
2. Animate it.
This is for fun. I'm going to try to make an assembly animation for the chariot.
Parts will move into their assembled configurations. They will appear, appear and move, or move from off camera.
This will be on model side. I might use TS 5 if needed.
Some preliminary work was troublesome. The bands on the wheels stretch to about the length of the spokes when I set a key frame. They are SDS objects and I tried it after extracting the final mesh too.
I might try it in TS 5. I'm not going to fight bugs to do the animation.
I have little free time so both projects will be slow and sporadic. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 13, 2009, 4:06pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I think that's a good idea Finis. We all need to start monetizing our trueSpace work -- it's good for us and good for trueSpace. BTW, make sure it has a nice UV map and that you show the how the UV map and texture line up, that should help it sell. |
Post by Finis // May 13, 2009, 5:15pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Thanks Jack.
Any suggestions for a free or ultra cheap UV mapper?
How would I show the map to texture line up? |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 13, 2009, 5:25pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Ultimate Unwrap 3D is the best cheap option. But Headus UVLayout is worth the money in the quality of maps it produces and the time it will save you.
To show how the textures and UVs line us you would export your UV map and overlay it over the texture in your paint program.
A lot of people can model things, but it's UV mapping that stops many from making professionally usable models.
Edit:
For free options for UV mapping (if you need better than the trueSpace UV editor) would be Blender and Roadkill. |
Post by nigec // May 13, 2009, 10:44pm
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nigec
Total Posts: 314
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I use LithUnwrap for most of my things, most recent, the Daimler bike frame.. it imports/exports cob files no problem, imports back into TS in the same scale and position which is useful! |
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