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IK Lock bleedthrough
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IK Lock bleedthrough // Bugs
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 18, 2008, 10:43am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Oh dear I have found another gremlin.
Make a biped rig, full lock at top of back, in my case out of interest rotation locks on upper arms. Make the hands so they can rotate around their own axis(twist).
Now slap 1 IK handle on the waist. we are not going to use it but set it to fK.
into dynapose and manually set top back full lock on. If you like set the upper arm lock on one arm. Now grab opposite hand bone (IE on the fly IK) and keep wiggling around the hand bone axis(twist). Note the opposite arm.. It sometimes slowly rises up ignoring full top of spine lock, AND its upper arm lock!!yay levitation.
Everything is bleeding through 2 locks.
Ok now delete the waist IK Handle that hasn't even been used.
Do the same experiment you did before.. the bleed through has completely vanished, rock solid!!??????????????????????????????????????????
Oh well
IK |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 18, 2008, 10:47am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Interesting find IK. :jumpy:
What were the settings for the waist handle? This sounds like a key finding and could be the source of much of the lock problems. The handles have settings to override locks, maybe those settings aren't working properly? |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 18, 2008, 11:46am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Read your reply Jack so try to get more info
Ok recreated the prob. Slightly different outcome, but same overall bleed.
Strangely this time the IK handle appears to have no bearing on outcome with or without an IK handle at waist (that isn't used) I tried handle in full ik and full FK this time appeared to have no impact good or bad on the bleed of locks. incidently I did not associate the IK handle with ANY locks(if thats important?)
The problem appears to be with having a combination of rotation locks on opposite arms (with a full lock in between).
Ok I will enclose two pics
Pic 1 the waist IK setting (ik/fk slider appears of no consequence) As I say first time deleting the waist IK eradicated lock bleed absolutely rock solid. this time the bleed continued after IK Handle deleted?
Try with handle first then delete it.
Pic2 the locks as I have them set to show problem. OK I describe the pic as we look at it. Ignore the mess of extra locks (origonal intention was to make full fk only rig for experiment)
As we look at pic right arm has rotation lock on for lower arm. (if this is turned off and the upper arm rotation lock put on the same bleed occurs)
Full lock between arms turned on.
Upper Arm on left of pic has rotation lock on.
Set right mouse to rotate around xy (I have vague feeling you might need to setup the twist limits for hand on right of pic, can't remember if scene saved b4 or after they were set)and grab hand bone on right of pic, repeatedly/continually rotate back and forth around the bone's axis and watch other arm, might have to try a few times strength of effect varies from a full 45% arm rotation at opposite shoulder, to minor wiggle.
scene file too big I will post with link on shared folder(for 1 week) Have a play see what you think?
PS ignore the semi unweighted model he's version A of about 15 further refined dudes :D
Scene File (1 week only running out of space)
http://www.4shared.com/file/59540993/6ed52fcd/LockBleedSceen.html
IK |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 18, 2008, 2:06pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Thanks IK, I'll upload the scene to the beta forums for the devs to test. I think we're making serious progress here. Huge thanks for all your hard work! :banana: |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 18, 2008, 8:55pm
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Jack couple of things that occurred to me this morning (Guess I was thinking about rigging in my sleep :o)
I omitted to mention that if the arm that is having the wrist rotated has the rotation locks removed... the bleed through stops completely. So am wondering if its something to do with a combo of 2 rotation locks ( although there is a full lock in between).
Having followed the other thread along with Rich, EJim, Wiz, Stem etc I note in that thread you mention the concept of lock "brackets". Hmm wondering if this has any bearing on my example.
EDIT... I knew there was another thing I dreamt about lol
This is a very long shot, and extremely unlikely, but just to document and eliminate. Is it possible that the rough/almost non existant weight painting has any bearing. IE if verts are not well assigned to the correct joint is it possible they can almost bypass the locking mechanism. Doubt it but worth eliminating.
Am also baffled why the first time I deleted the IK waist handle it was an instant and 100% fix, but the same setup with an identical IK waist handle, had no effect one way or the other, very odd.
IK |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 18, 2008, 10:30pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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If you look at the videos that came with the manual, the first lock (closest to the handle) sets the beginning point of a locked set of joints while the next active lock sets the end point of the locked set of joints. So if you set two rotation locks, everything between the two locks is locked, but the joints before and after the two locks would be unlocked.
Also locks can be set to have on/off states for when the handle is used to move the skeleton. This is done by turning the locks on or off while the handle is selected. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 19, 2008, 4:00am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Yeh I know about the auto setting of locks for IK handles.
So what happens when 3 consecutive joints each have a lock. Should all 3 be locked, I always assumed so.
IK |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 19, 2008, 6:06am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Not sure, sounds like that could cause problems. Better would be to lock just the first joint you want locked, or the first and last joints for the range you want locked. |
Post by Stem // Aug 19, 2008, 10:14pm
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Hi Jack,
If you look at the videos that came with the manual,
With ref to video~ chapter 8/ tS57_CE03_Locks.wmv. At the end of the vid it shows the rig being given a lock on each hand, the locks are then enabled and the head is moved about showing the hands keep in place/locked, and yes they do. But if a little extra time had been taken to actually key_frame such a movement and then playback then it would of been seen the hands moving around.
So as example:
loaded rigged tank girl and placed full locks on hands and enabled the locks (see pic) I then moved the head and made key_frames, the resulting anim is attached (with her hands moving around). |
Post by Stem // Aug 20, 2008, 9:10am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Hello again,
I am adding to my last post,
I wanted to simplify as much as possible to try and see what is happening, so, I placed 3 bones with 2 default joint limits and then one lock at one end, the first pic shows the simple setup. I then set the lock and keyframed. I then moved the free end to one extreme limit and keyframed, then moved the free end to the other extreme limt and again keyframed. That worked correctly, and there was no movement at the locked end.
Now, I see that (in a simple way) as how the arm of a rig moves, and could be seen as the locked end as the chest and the free (movable) end as the hand,.. so that is OK.
I then removed the lock and placed it at the other end, I enabled the lock and repeated what I had done above (but of course, moving the unlocked end),.. so basically, locking the hand and allowing the chest to move.
On playback, ALL the bones spin around, the lock is completely ignored.
I then expanded on that. I placed a link of bones 5 long (in a V shape from left to right~ second pic) with 3 joints (I made the joints fully free to move in all directions). I then placed a lock on each end and enabled the locks. I then moved the center (middle) joint around and keyframed in various positions, on playback only one locked end (left) remained locked, the other end (right) moved.
Could this be explained? or is this part of the bug?
Please note, I did not add any IK/FK |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 22, 2008, 8:58pm
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Stem here is the seed of a theory I start to wonder about.
As I understand it in TS the full title of lock is actually IK Lock. I wonder if we are all trying to use what is an IK lock but for FK. Perhaps this is adding to the problem. It would explain most of the problem you highlight, apart from the fact the first example did work?
IK
Scratches head (again) |
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