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Buildbranchproblem
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Buildbranchproblem // Bugs
Post by Tiles // Jun 30, 2007, 2:16am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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This time i have a branch problem. Note, the bone we are talking about here is the top hierarchical bone i have created first. Now i want to create a branch at it:
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem1.jpg
Alright. Let's select the joint above. http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem2.jpg
Now i click at the hip area. And get the branch at the bone above.
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem3.jpg
So let's select the joint below. Maybe with that we get out branch at the right position.
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem4.jpg
Umn ...
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem5.jpg
Surpriiise. You cannot add a branch to this bone anymore it seems :D
Here the rsscn file, 1 MB:
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/branchproblem.zip |
Post by jayr // Jun 30, 2007, 3:18am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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i found if you select the hip joint and then click so the joint is above it then you can just delete the joint in the abdomin and move the skeleton around till you get what you want, never seen this beore though, it's always split as expected for me, maybe a problem with the mirroring?
p.s. i'd have posted the scene file i made but don't know how |
Post by Tiles // Jun 30, 2007, 7:09am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Yup, that's the workaround. That you cannot add a branch to the top hierarchical bone is a bug in my opinion though :) |
Post by jayr // Jun 30, 2007, 11:16am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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funny, i did a rig for a hand with a similar structure and it spilt ok so i don't really know whats going on here. When i get round to fully rigging some characters i'll see if i get the same thing working from scratch. |
Post by RichLevy // Jun 30, 2007, 11:56am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I am not able to reproduce your problem, I can put a brach on the root with no problems. Are you sure you are doing it correctly? I have 2 pictures here. The first picture is the root joint in the crotch as you did, I than went up the spine to the top of the head, I did the 2 arms quickly than came back to the pelvic area.
At this point I started the left leg and went down there. The picture shows what the rig would look like at this point.
Doing the left leg and going down, the 2nd picture is what you would get.
Sorry if I am misunderstanding you. Just trying to make sure we are talking the same thing.
Rich |
Post by Emma // Jun 30, 2007, 12:20pm
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Emma
Total Posts: 344
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If you click the order shown in the picture you will get this result.
If you start with 1 at the right side you will get the 4/7/8 construct on the left side
So the branch split up depends on the direction order you created your joints.
The difference of creation is:
- branch from a joint works
- branch from middle of a bone, splits in two parts when you insert first joint (that is OK)
- destroys structure when you now add the second joint for the bone you jhust wanted to add |
Post by RichLevy // Jun 30, 2007, 12:48pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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If you click the order shown in the picture you will get this result.
If you start with 1 at the right side you will get the 4/7/8 construct on the left side
So the branch split up depends on the direction order you created your joints.
The difference of creation is:
- branch from a joint works
- branch from middle of a bone, splits in two parts when you insert first joint (that is OK)
- destroys structure when you now add the second joint for the bone you jhust wanted to add
I'm not sure if that is a fair test Emma. You are trying to turn the #7 joint into a branch joint without telling the program you are trying to make a straight connection from it Visually I see what you are trying to do, and I understand what you mean. That is unfortunately not the way TS works.
You could do it, but you would have to go into the LE and make the connections yourself (assuming you can still do it, you could early in the beta).
You can do what you want by going from #3 joint to #7 than up to #8...
Than come back to #4,, #5 and than #6. Every character animation package has some rules you need to follow in order to make things work. XSI, C4D, Messiah all need some basic rules (admittedly, they are a tad bit more flexible though :) ) TS has a few things you need to do in order to get clean, fast results.
Rich |
Post by Emma // Jun 30, 2007, 10:12pm
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Emma
Total Posts: 344
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:) thanks :)
Sorry, I was trying to be fair, but I wanted to be it as a user. And there you go stepwise as I described. The LE way is OK but still I wanted to find an easyer way as a user who is not yet trained with the LE.
So after following your steps I thought about it and redefined my procedure, not sure if it is OK or has other disadvantages. Still I'm really not the bones expert.
Seting the joints stepwise Í define as " you don't think and plan exactly ahead how you construct your skeleton, you just build it as you imagine it should look" not how it works in trueSpace.
So here comes into business what you and and jayr said, That is unfortunately not the way TS works what means I have to use trueSpace as it is, with it's tools
So if I run the "easy way" and set my joints stepwise I will run into the status shown to the left in the picture below. OK, now try to use the tools after the skeleton is a bit out of order:
- A select Shape skeleton
- B select the joint that is "wrong"
- C select Delete joint
and there it is skeleton is the way I was thinking it to be.
This was a learning process for me too and what I take from it as a user is if something seems to be buggy try to figure out if there is a tool that is needed in the workflow to correct whatever was going wrong before saying it is a bug:)
Anyway, please correct me if this will lead into another trap which I don't see ! |
Post by Tiles // Jun 30, 2007, 10:13pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Ah, what a nice confusion. That's why i have told that it is about the top hierarchical bone, have documented my problem with pictures, and have even attached my troublefile ;)
Hierarchically told, marking a joint to add a branch picks the bone behind. Which means the next closest bone downwards the hierarchy. But the top hierarchical bone has no such joint above its hierarchy when you add a branch at both joints . It's the top hierarchical object then. As you can see in this spaghetti shot (We really need a list display, this is soo confusing to look at) :
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/hierarchy.jpg
And so you cannot mark a joint any longer to add a branch to this bone. Because you need a joint which is hierarchical above to click at for marking where to go on. Clicking at the bone just splits it ...
Fortunately we can work around. Thanks for all the tips :) |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 1, 2007, 6:28am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Ok, for clarification I am trying to explain 2 different situations with 2 different people. The situation that Emma is describing is different than the situation that Tiles is describing.
Tiles is saying that it is not possible to add a branch to the first joint in a heirachy... I showed in my pictures on my first post in this thread that I can, that I do it all of the time.
The first picture is your rig... I changed the bone shape to diamonds to clarify what I am talking about.
See where your root bone is? It is heading down the leg (when you turn the bone shape to Diamond, the diamond root is a double diamond, it is easier to see where your root is than). In my second picture is the correct location of the root, this way when you do the branch from it you get 2 branches. This is the same technique you use when doing fingers on the hand, you would branch from the wrist joint... or doing 2 arms, you would branch from one of the chest joints.
I am including a scene file with your character and my rig in it. I did not do anything to it (no limits or IKHandles, sorry I have too many things to do today :) )
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 1, 2007, 6:33am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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:) thanks :)
Sorry, I was trying to be fair, but I wanted to be it as a user. And there you go stepwise as I described. The LE way is OK but still I wanted to find an easyer way as a user who is not yet trained with the LE.
So after following your steps I thought about it and redefined my procedure, not sure if it is OK or has other disadvantages. Still I'm really not the bones expert.
Seting the joints stepwise Í define as " you don't think and plan exactly ahead how you construct your skeleton, you just build it as you imagine it should look" not how it works in trueSpace.
So here comes into business what you and and jayr said, what means I have to use trueSpace as it is, with it's tools
So if I run the "easy way" and set my joints stepwise I will run into the status shown to the left in the picture below. OK, now try to use the tools after the skeleton is a bit out of order:
- A select Shape skeleton
- B select the joint that is "wrong"
- C select Delete joint
and there it is skeleton is the way I was thinking it to be.
This was a learning process for me too and what I take from it as a user is if something seems to be buggy try to figure out if there is a tool that is needed in the workflow to correct whatever was going wrong before saying it is a bug:)
Anyway, please correct me if this will lead into another trap which I don't see !
Hey Emma
All very valid points... give me some time to give you a thorough answer. Unfortunately right now this minute is not a good time because I have to run. I'll try to lay out the different things I have learned thru use of old TS bones and working with the beta developer's on the new bones. I guess some of these things are second nature for me now, but they are not for you guys yet...
I'll be back.
Rich |
Post by Tiles // Jul 1, 2007, 6:55am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Rich, you haven't added a branch to this bone. You simply picked the next bone below the hierarchy to add your branch here from what i can see at your screenshot. That's what i did in Shot 4 in my initial posting :p |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 1, 2007, 9:21am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Not true at all, I am using the Root Bone, but I am placing it in the pelvis where it belongs...
As you said to me in a previous post "I have documented my conclusion with pictures and attached proof of my findings with a scene file" :D Look at my file, than look at yours, put your "bone shape" in Diamond mode and than click on your root, and than click on mine. Each is in a different position. Each position on the mesh will have a different effect when you try to put a branch on it.
So your argument about the root not being able to be a branch point is incorrect, it can and does, if you want to change your argument to another point I am listening :)
I know that you do not want to hear, but that is the way the program works :) The root needs to be at the end (not entirely, you can add bones to it afterward) of a branch.
Think in terms of putting it on the spine and that will help you when you start to create limb library's. If you try to put the root on a limb I don't think you will be able to use it in the limb library. |
Post by Tiles // Jul 1, 2007, 10:02pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Rich, i think i understand you very well. I have more the feeling that i am unable to describe my problem clear enough. It's bout the top hierarchical bone. The bone that is always created first. The bone with the two tips, which i want to branch. Your solution looks like this:
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem7.jpg
The bone is just gone one upwards, not branched. But i am looking for this solution, having this bone branched:
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem8.jpg
And this shot is the proof that there is a way. Have found the solution while typing this ;)
My mainproblem is that there is no way to select a skeleton part to go on with adding a branch at the top hierarchical bone. It is simply impossible with just using the Build Skeleton button. Because, as told, you need to select a joint to go on, and it selects downwards the hierarchy then. The top bone is in front of the joints though, hierarchically . And so not selectable. We also cannot select it directly while the Build Skeleton Button is activated. This just splits the bone.
Emma told me a workaround. And you told me your workaround. Both needs to reshape the skeleton when i understand it correct. Even when it's just removing a joint then.
Now the solution i am stumbled across. A solution that really just adds a branch to this bone:
Leave the Build Skeleton Mode by activating Shape Skeleton Button:
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem9.jpg
Click at the bone to select it.
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem10.jpg
Then click Build Skeleton to reenter the build mode. (Sidenote: Buttonhighlightarmageddon again :D )
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem11.jpg
And now we can add a branch to the bone.
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/rigproblem12.jpg
Because we have selected the bone while being in shapeskeleton mode we have not split it while selecting it :)
That's what i was looking for: a way to select this top hierarchical bone :banana: |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 1, 2007, 10:57pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I would not call the branch/bone that is placed in the pelvis a bone (though that is what it is called in the LE). The way I am describing is the better way to do this because you stick with 1 consistent flow.
How would you rig a horse, a crab an octopus?. If you get in the practice of starting the rig/skeleton on a characters spine you will have less problems like this. The key in TS bones is to bury the root bone in a location where it will not effect FK movement. Grabbing it as part of an IK chain does not seem to be a problem, but putting it in the beginning of a limb puts it in an area where you might want to move it with the widget for FK movement.
Another thing to consider. At some point you are going to want to explore using the limb library, and as your rigs start to grow in complexity you will want to do this. If you save out all your arms, legs, hands, claws, feet, wings, fascial setups and spines. You will never have to worry about where your root is... did I put it on the right leg? did I put it on the left leg... you always have it on the spine.
Lesson... the root does not branch like the other bones... it adds a branch bone to do the split... look in the LE though, and you see a branch from the root.
Future consideration... what do you do if your character grows a third leg? What do you do if you want to make your character more anatomically correct?
You can try to shoe horn your approach into this, you can try to please your sense of ascetics to how you feel it should look based on what the other bones do... Will it give you a problem in the future? Does that matter for you?
Rich
[edit] In my nice little diagram I mislabeled the Limb, 2 is supposed to be Arm |
Post by Tiles // Jul 1, 2007, 11:09pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Thank you for your ongoing explanation. Makes some things clearer to me now. And i think you rescued me from going into a trap here. I understand better now why you don't wanted to split this bone. While i finally found a way to branch the rootbone, i see now that it might not be a good idea at all. And may give me trouble with future rigs. Especially when exporting to X this becomes a serious issue. Many thanks for your patience :) |
Post by transient // Jul 1, 2007, 11:24pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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{edit] I didn't understand the problem. This thread has cleared some things up for me too, thanks. |
Post by Tiles // Jul 1, 2007, 11:26pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Yup, this thread is an important one :) |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 1, 2007, 11:34pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I learned a couple of things also :D
As a side note.
If you want to use BVH motions with your rigs, whether they be your own, or ones you buy from someone like Mr.Bones. Get in the habit of having the same number of joints/bones in the spine, and name them the same. This way as you make your library's of limb rigs and rigs you only spend time once naming everything.
HTH
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 2, 2007, 2:51am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I've been reading thru this thread a couple of times... something kept gnawing at me. I know I had done something like this several times before, but frankly I do not know how this would work in another situation. As in transferring out to a game engine, or working with BVH files.
This is basically what Tiles and Emma did, though slightly differently. I deleted the joint below the Root, this does not effect the heirarchy and eliminates what Tiles was worried about. You can see in the LE this... I have no idea whether this would be a problem in the future. I have done it before on hand rigged characters and did not notice anything... but. I'll ask the developer if he can shed light on why this is like this and if it has any importance on anything (though I am thinking it is part of keeping the Root from being the end of the IK chain...).
Rich |
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