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Layered Texture Crash
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Layered Texture Crash // Bugs
Post by MadMouse // Jul 28, 2006, 9:03am
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Hi Guys,
Could someone test this for me and see if they are getting the same results:-
1). TS7 in the modeller in wireframe view, set up a basic scene with a simple primitive in the middle. Lightworks renderer, any simple light set up.
2). Make a layered texture with an environmental Map shader as the base texture and a Caligari Phong as the top layer. (all settings are unimportant)
3). Paint the texture to the primitive. All should be fine...
4). Now turn on HDRI, the image and settings are unimportant.
5). Paint the texture to the primitive again.
6). If you get the same results as me then the texture will not appear on the primitive.
7). Now click on render and TS7 will either render nothing or crash without warning.
This happens with different combinations of layered shaders but mostly with the Environmental Map shader involved.
This is most annoying as I regularly use this combination of shaders in conjunction with transparency maps to simulate worn metal, and is preventing me from rendering my warehouse mech in TS7 without altering how it looks.:mad: :mad: :mad:
Thanks in advance
Steve |
Post by splinters // Jul 28, 2006, 1:09pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Sorry Steve, worked OK for me...:o
If you want to email a section of your mech or the texture I can test it for you. |
Post by Steinie // Jul 28, 2006, 1:54pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Steve,
I also tried your recreate but no crash. Line 6 of your instructions, the texture did not appear on my object too. Splinters did your's appear on line 6?
I reversed the layers and changed settings but no crash. Worked on this for about half an hour but everything looked ok. |
Post by splinters // Jul 28, 2006, 1:55pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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yes, texture appeared on mine. You guys got Nvidia cards? |
Post by MadMouse // Jul 28, 2006, 11:25pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Sorry Steve, worked OK for me...
If you want to email a section of your mech or the texture I can test it for you. Thanks for trying Paul. It doesn't need to be a part of my mech to cause the crash just the right combination of shaders.
I also tried your recreate but no crash. Line 6 of your instructions, the texture did not appear on my object too. But it rendered ok yes?? Did you render it more than once as I've found it doesn't always crash on the first attempt??
You guys got Nvidia cards? Well I have,(GeForce6600GT) and it did cross my mind that this was the problem. I understand that TS7 has some issues with Nvidia cards but I thought this was due to old drivers and I'm running the latest forceware ones.
Thanks for trying guys. There are ways round this now I know what the problem is, but I shouldn't have to work around something as simple as this should I??:(
Steve |
Post by splinters // Jul 29, 2006, 12:31am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Well I have,(GeForce6600GT) and it did cross my mind that this was the problem. I understand that TS7 has some issues with Nvidia cards but I thought this was due to old drivers and I'm running the latest forceware ones.
Steve
I was under the impression that the latest Forceware drivers have thrown some older problems back up...:confused: |
Post by TomG // Jul 29, 2006, 1:53am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Yes, 93.31 and 93.33 (the beta when last I looked) cause some problems - and the problems are with the Modeler view, and it happens in tS6.6 too.
So now there were drivers that worked up to a certain version number, then a set of version numbers that won't work with tS7, then a set of versions that do (which is where I am, version 84.21), then a newer set that break things again, but different things this time (and things in tS6.6), which are the 93.31 and above.
It's the ones that introduce the new control panel, those cause varying degrees of problems. For some they just cause some flickering - for me, they cause whole objects to disappear out of the view, they do flicker in and out but in such a way that they often vanish and stay vanished.
I am not aware of any tS7 specific problems those drivers cause. The earlier set that caused problems only caused problems with tS7, but these latest cause me the same problem in both tS6.6 and tS7.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by MadMouse // Jul 30, 2006, 4:23am
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Well to be honest I dont know much about the technical side of PC's, all I know is:- It Should work.....It don't work..... and its P***ing me OFF!!!:mad: |
Post by chrisj // Jul 30, 2006, 4:35am
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chrisj
Total Posts: 239
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I too have problems with my nvidia card and TS7, not to mention some games such as Call of Duty2. PC is only a month or so old, so I expect I've got the latest drivers. I've got a 7900 GTX, and I oten find than grouped objects are invisible, or they are not rendered. If I ungroup the objects, things improve. I also find the card hangs, and I have to reboot. The card is blisteringly fast, when it works well, but I get frustrated a bit with TS7. Are there any improvements to be made in version 7.5?
Chris |
Post by splinters // Jul 30, 2006, 4:46am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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The card is blisteringly fast, when it works well, but I get frustrated a bit with TS7. Are there any improvements to be made in version 7.5?
Chris
Nvidia apparently conceded that it was something in their drivers casuing the problem (long thread about this elsewhere) and whatever it was they seem to have reintroduced it in the latest ones. Therefore, I guess Caligari can do nothing about it for 7.5.
I have an Ati Radeon 9800 Pro and it runs in player very fast...I have not had one single graphics card related problem since I started testing over two years ago...Nividia owners however... |
Post by Délé // Jul 30, 2006, 4:56am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Yeah, I'm pretty fed up with Nvidia too. They've got good cards but what use are they if they can't write stable drivers. I'm still stuck at 78.01 myself. I only get some minor screen freezes which can be dealt with by adjusting the window quickly. The problems in every update since 78.01 are unacceptable so I refuse to update until they release something stable. My next card will be ATI again. |
Post by Steinie // Jul 30, 2006, 7:13am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I'm not following this thread right. So it has been established that OTHER people with Nvidia cards are ALSO crashing? (after doing Madmouses's test) I have not read that in anyone elses post here. So based on that information I'm not convinced. What version drivers are the other Nvidia people using if they are not crashing/locking up? I think if there was more usefull information it could help Madmouse. My details of my system are for everyone to see, and I have an ATI card and do not crash. Please everyone with Nvidia cards recreate his test and report if you crashed too. This would help everyone.
We know there are problems but lets confirm them. This could easily be a bad memory chip or something else. Lets be sure. |
Post by MadMouse // Jul 30, 2006, 1:46pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Yes please, If you have an Nvidia card could you please try my test and post the results. As Steinie said this would be most useful.
(P.S. Does C4D have issues with Nvidia:rolleyes: ) |
Post by trueBlue // Jul 30, 2006, 3:36pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Okay here is my results. This is a rendered scene that did not produce a crash. Note that my signature has my system details. Not sure if I am doing this right, I have never done a layered texture. Maybe more step by step instructions would be helpful. :( <---Newbie
Update: Oooops, after rendering this same scene a few more times, it crashed. Then I recreated the same scene and got these errors posted below. |
Post by Shike // Jul 30, 2006, 3:48pm
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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Crap! For me it crashes.. when repainting after switching to HDRI I get fatal error.
I'm using Forceware 84.21
Now to find out how to reset trueSpace7 since I can't start it without crash after that error. :mad:
Hm, deleting the trueSpace7\tS\default.ctx file (or in my cowardly state...renaming it)
seem to solve the problem. Now ts7 starts again. Pfew :D
Is that the file where ts7 autosaves the latest scene? Then I'm thinking about creating a batscript that restores a clean one every time I start ts7 because the autosave is just causing problems :rolleyes:
Oh, and I'm never going to use layered materials again ;) |
Post by Shike // Jul 30, 2006, 4:09pm
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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Feeling brave/stupid I decided to test again (now when I have a backup of the ctx file)
This time it crash to desktop on step 5.
But at least ts7 started without problem after that.
Still, from TomG's post I get a feeling that I wont update the Forceware for a while. Hm, I've always believed that NVIDIA was better than ATI at making drivers....might have to reconsider now :rolleyes: |
Post by trueBlue // Jul 30, 2006, 7:09pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Yes please, If you have an Nvidia card could you please try my test and post the results. As Steinie said this would be most useful.
(P.S. Does C4D have issues with Nvidia:rolleyes: )
Madmouse: Maybe it would be more helpful if you posted an example scene that could be tested by other users. |
Post by MadMouse // Jul 31, 2006, 1:03am
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Maybe it would be more helpful if you posted an example scene that could be tested by other users. Here's that test scene. just load it up, turn on HDRI and click render. You should either get no render or TS will just crash. (unless you get the same errors as trueBlue did)
Now to find out how to reset trueSpace7 since I can't start it without crash after that error. YIKES!!! Sorry Lars:o
Oh, and I'm never going to use layered materials again But thats like saying I'm never driving my car again because I broke down... You just get the man that sold you the car to fix it... HINT HINT;) |
Post by splinters // Jul 31, 2006, 1:47am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Well, what do you know. My TS crashed, however-I had to assign a different HDRI as I do not have the one you used. Certainly seems to rule out Nvidia drivers alone here.
Mind you, it did not crash first time, second time I tried to render I got an error message. All subsequents attempts, TS7 just closed with no warnings.
I will pass it on to developers if they do not already know. |
Post by Steinie // Jul 31, 2006, 3:02am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Thank you all for giving this a second look. |
Post by GraySho // Jul 31, 2006, 7:12am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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On my machine it didn't render at all at first try, the second time I hit the render scene button, ts shut down without a warning.
Athlon64 3200, 1GB RAM, ATI Radeon X600 256MB PCIe.
Edit: Looks like it's the environment map shader that's causing the problems, just tried to create a new scene with layered textures myself. Did render fine until I chose the evironment map shader for the second layer.
BTW, doesn't really make sense to use environment map shader and hdri at the same time. Maybe these two reflection methods do interfere in some way that causes ts to crash. |
Post by Shike // Jul 31, 2006, 7:48pm
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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YIKES!!! Sorry Lars:o
He,he, no problem :D ...my heart stopped for a short while but started again when I found the ctx solution ;)
BTW, doesn't really make sense to use environment map shader and hdri at the same time. Maybe these two reflection methods do interfere in some way that causes ts to crash.
I have a feeling that you're right about that...HDRI's biggest benefit is the nice reflections.
I wonder if MadMouse would have choosen that method if he had created the Mech in ts7 with HDRI in mind....and considering how extremely complex his mech is (many parts and materials he would have to change) i feel truly sorry for him. (and for me since I was looking foward to see his mech again:( ) |
Post by MadMouse // Jul 31, 2006, 10:02pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Well, what do you know. My TS crashed Ah Ha!!! Not just an Nvidia problem (not sure if that good news or bad) but at least its not just me going mad. Thanks very much Paul and everyone else who has tried this.
BTW, doesn't really make sense to use environment map shader and hdri at the same time. I know what you mean but In TS6 (which is where my Mech first came to life) it was the best combination I could come up with to get the look of partly worn metal.
I wonder if MadMouse would have choosen that method if he had created the Mech in ts7 with HDRI in mind That would be a big NO then :D
....and considering how extremely complex his mech is (many parts and materials he would have to change) It not as bad as it could be. I didnt use this technique on all parts of the Mech just the sections with bare worn metal so I should be able to sort it.
Thanks again guys
Steve |
Post by Bobbins // Jul 31, 2006, 10:06pm
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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MadMouse: Just use the scene Material List in tS7 to do a replace/global replace of the offending materials. Should only take you minutes to change them all. |
Post by MadMouse // Jul 31, 2006, 10:10pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Interesting.... I'll give it a try when I get back to the project. Thanks :D |
Post by splinters // Jul 31, 2006, 11:50pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I have little or no experience of the environment map you use but how is it different from HDRI?
What I mean is, does it simulate the effects of an environment on a material (in other words-exactly what HDRI does)?
In this case wouldn't it be competing with the HDRI effect anyway-that might explain the crash.
Again, I have bever used it so I don't really know. Steve, you obviously have your reasons for using it...:o |
Post by MadMouse // Aug 1, 2006, 1:45am
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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I believe your spot on Paul. Enviromental map is a way of faking real world reflections before TS had HDRI so yes this could well be why the two clash. I originally used enviro's because I was using TS6 but now I've got 7 it looks like i'll have to change the textures to get my render to work. Oh well only 187 textures but thankfully only some use enviromental maps so it shouldnt take to long......... Sigh..........:( |
Post by chrisj // Aug 4, 2006, 5:55am
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chrisj
Total Posts: 239
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just upgraded my nvidia drivers to 91.31. already a marked improvement in loaded scenes to the modeller, and the link with the player (not that I use it much). time will tell if it's an impovement. lots of tests to do with 7.1 and other applications. hopefully will get back with some sort of report.
chris |
Post by MadMouse // Aug 4, 2006, 8:25am
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Thanks Chris, lets me know how you get on. |
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