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Reflectance:Environment shader not working??
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Reflectance:Environment shader not working?? // Bugs
Post by e-graffiti // Apr 29, 2006, 11:22am
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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I cannot seem to get the "Environment" reflectance shader to work in tS7.1 . I set up a couple of simple scenes with 3-4 objects in tS7, applied the environment shader in the reflectance channel and no reflectance! I setup the same scene in ts6.6 and got the reflectance of the other objects in the scene using the environment shader as expected. Is it broken or am I not using it properly? :confused: |
Post by GraySho // Apr 29, 2006, 3:08pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Works fine here. Make sure you have "Raytracing" enabled (That icon with the 3 balls). |
Post by e-graffiti // Apr 29, 2006, 4:03pm
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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I do have raytracing enabled. Can you make sure that you are chosing "Environment" and not "Evironment Map". Environment Map shader works fine but "environment" is not working for me. BTW your signature says tS6.6, but I assume you are trying this in tS7.1 as this is the version I am having the problem with. |
Post by stan // Apr 29, 2006, 4:42pm
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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my ts7.1 enviroment shader doesn't seem to do what it did in ts6.6 |
Post by GraySho // Apr 29, 2006, 11:52pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Sorry, environment shader doesn't work here either. I didn't even know about that shader (or never really had use for it). I have trueSpace 7.1, but still prefer to work with 6.6. |
Post by e-graffiti // Apr 30, 2006, 10:52am
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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The "environment" shader is good to use for "faked" raytraced reflections. It does a good job of producing realistic reflections and is faster than doing the reflections via raytracing. It is good to use when time conservation is important and/or when you dont need accurate ray traced reflections. It appears to be broken in ts 7.1 and I hope Caligari fixes this bug. |
Post by TomG // May 1, 2006, 4:26am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi all,
Done some tests, it appears the problem is NOT the environment shader. BTW this is now the HDRI lighting effect primarily, so to function as before (reflected background image only), set the Lighting intensity to 0. Maybe Samples to 0 too, though I think lighting intensity is enough.
As to the problem here, the bug is with the raytrace flag I think. If you set the raytrace flag in the right hand panel, it does not work. You can click it on and off and it makes no difference.
You will need to use the old toolbar to set this, found on the right of the Model screen (usually minimized by default). You can use the icon to enable and disable raytracing and it works.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by e-graffiti // May 1, 2006, 9:21am
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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TomG, your message is a little confusing. First you say raytracing will not make a difference as it does not work. Then you say disable raytracing to make it work :confused: Anyhow I tried disabling raytracing,and the GI settings you recommended and this did not help, still no object reflections in object that uses environment shader. In previous versions of ts GI did not even work with Environment shaders, either one of the environment shaders as the GI relied on raytraced reflections which is the exact "opposite" of the environment shader.
BTW I am not sure how HDRI can replace Environment shader as they have different functions. According to Caligari tsAG manual, Environment is all bitmapped reflectance of "objects" in scene and really has nothing to do with HDRI from what I understand.
Also that raytracing button (the new button with the 3 balls) needs to "change state" when clicked as I cant tell from looking at the button if it is enabled or disabled. :confused: |
Post by TomG // May 1, 2006, 10:07am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Raytracing will make a difference and does work - what doesnt work is the checkbox to enable and disable it in the right hand library stack. The icon on the toolbar still works though.
Lots of things happening here. May need to revisit this with more info in a bit, as in a rush at the moment :)
HDRI has two parts. One is the lighting. The other is the reflections. Note that this reflection function is what Global Environment used to do, but now HDRI does it.
If you use an image in the Global Env setting, and turn the lighting to 0, then you get what used to be Global Env in tS6.6 and earlier. The Environment shader still does not work - but the regular reflective shaders will work just fine, so in a sense no need for the environment shader. Previously the Global Env was not reflected properly in the mirror shader etc (that I recall - like I say, in a rush!)
If you give it light parameters, then it will use that as a light source also. With a regular image, reflections and lighting have a regular dynamic range of course.
WIth an HDRI image, you can also turn the lighting off and have it act just as reflection, or leave it on and have lighting and reflection. Here the high dynamic range comes into play and the response to light and dark is different than in a regular image thanks to the extra info contained in high dynamic range images.
More later! So far the Env shader does still seem not to work, as well as the raytrace flag.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by e-graffiti // May 1, 2006, 10:30am
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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When you get more time take a look at this, no need to rush. HDRI/GI and raytracing are really seperate things as Environment shader DOES NOT WORK WITH GI in previous version of ts and RAYTRACING was not even calculated in previous version of ts because the reflections are bitmapped and NOT raytraced so enable or disable did not effect the ability of the bitmap being created to produce the reflections of the environment shaded object. That was a mouth full ;) . Adding GI and raytracing to this conversation is apples and not oranges. Try it yourself in PREVIOUS version of ts to understand what is supposed to happen when you enable the Environment shader. When you look into this more you will also find that the "ENVIRONMENT MAP" shader works fine in ts7 producing bitmapped reflections but "ENVIRONMENT" shader does not work at all! |
Post by stan // May 1, 2006, 10:56am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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same scene in ts6.6 and 7.1 |
Post by e-graffiti // May 1, 2006, 11:16am
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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Stan, thanks for the picture post as it shows how Environment shader does not need raytracing to produce reflections in ts6.6. |
Post by TomG // May 1, 2006, 11:39am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Dont have anything except tS7.1 installed at the moment :)
Where does the Environment shader take the file to reflect from btw? I thought that was the Global Environment shader and that without one it had nothing to reflect. The Env Map shader works differently as the file to use as the environment is defined in the shader itself.
BTW on your comments about "DOES NOT WORK WITH GI " - there was no GI in previous versions of trueSpace. In fact there still isnt with tS7.1 unless you count Virtualight or V-Ray, but the Environment shader is a Lightworks shader. Not sure how GI came into it, the settings I mentioned were HDRI settings. HDRI and GI are very different. HDRI does not compute light bounces in a scene, while GI does. HDRI is simply a means of using an image that has more light and dark information in it than a conventional image, and using it to calculate lighting and reflection for a scene. Lightworks stops there, though in V-Ray you can add GI to that, which then bounces light around in the scene as well as the HDRI effects. The two combine nicely, but are not the same.
HDRI and the Global Environment are now one and the same. They are used to select a background image (High Dynamic, or regular) to use for reflections and for lighting. This may be why the shader no longer works as reflections from the Global Environment are now calculated by raytrace, as far as I know.
HTH!
Tom
Tom |
Post by e-graffiti // May 1, 2006, 3:24pm
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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Okay, tomG the "proper" term to use is "Global Environment" for pre-tS7. You are such a techie :o So every place I put GI change it to GE. But my points remain the same. Regarding where the Environment Shader gets the image, the shader creates it as explained in the tS manual :confused:
Now to stir your pot a little, depending on the author you read "radiosity" is considered a GI solution which tS has had for quite sometime. And certainly the combination of raytracing AND radiosity IS a GI solution, which tS has had for sometime now. I could not resist throwing that in :D
Thanks for recognizing the Environment shader issue. Hopefully it will be fixed! |
Post by TomG // May 1, 2006, 4:46pm
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Shows how much I have used that shader - I always treated all "environment" shaders as working from either an image they loaded, or from the global environment and never explored this one. Sorry for my confusion!
The issue was raised on the beta forums by a tester after you posted here, so that should get some response from developers and we can find out what is going on. I must admit I have no idea how this shader works technically (as in, when it generates the bitmap in the process, and how, especially since firing off a ray in the direction of the surface normal to find out what to put in the environment image sounds like tracing a ray to me!) so not sure why it would have stopped working. The developers will be able to say though. I'll be sure to pester them if no responses crop up.
This thread also uncovered the now apparently unrelated raytrace checkbox bug too. I'm waiting for a response on that as well :)
Yep, radiosity is considered as a subset of GI, if subset is the right term. Now who is being the techie ;)
More soon when we get some answers!
Thanks!
Tom |
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