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Ray/Mapped Spotlight Shadows

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Ray/Mapped Spotlight Shadows // Bugs

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Post by frank // Feb 4, 2006, 11:20am

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In trueSpace 7, when switching a spotlight from Ray to Mapped shadows, it immediately switches itself back to Ray.


This happens whether Vray or Lightworks is the currently enabled renderer.


It appears we can't use mapped shadows with spotlights.

Post by spacekdet // Feb 4, 2006, 11:39am

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"well you can call me Ray, and you can call me Ray-Ray, but you can't call me... mapped"
Weird... is the shadowcasting transparent? Try solid and see if it sticks.

Post by daybe // Feb 4, 2006, 12:02pm

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Yep, currently mapped shadows only work with omni's, goniometric lights and HDRI and only with lightworks. Vray is still in development so we will have to wait and see, In the mean time try area lights they seems to work alright with lightworks and Vray.

Post by frank // Feb 4, 2006, 12:02pm

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...but you can't call me... mapped"


:-)



I had solid shadows turned on but I switched to transparent shadows out of curiosity and that doesn't work either.


:-(



daybe: You'd think mapped shadows on spotlights would work w/ Lightworks in tS7.


As far as using area lights...well....there are some issues with that as well. Screengrabs forthcoming....

Post by frank // Feb 4, 2006, 12:12pm

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<< See attached screengrab. >>


I removed the spotlights and put in an Area Light...


As you can see, even with high-quality mapped shadows, for some reason it draws these chunky-looking aliased shadows. The shadows look better once the objects are closer to the floor but there are still artifacts.


I tried the following, to no avail:

- Map Size = 2048

- Switched to Raytraced shadows, which only increased the render time.

- Increased Min/Max subdiv. values



I reloaded the scene in trueSpace 6.6 (NOTE: Backup your scene before loading it into trueSpace 7, because even if you don't save it within 7 - it will still [apparently] save upon exiting. Once loaded in tS6 your materials and other things will be stripped.)

Post by spacekdet // Feb 6, 2006, 3:04pm

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Hi Frank
Try setting the Min Subdiv on the area light to a low value- 0.01
Set the max subdiv to 1.
In tests here, raytraced shadows looked better than mapped, even with numerically entered map sizes. If you want to stick with mapped shadows then crank that spinner up higher- 3000+
I had sharpness set to 1 - lower is softer in this case.
The larger the area is, the more virtual lights it will use- hence it will be brighter- but making it too large can also create artifacts- it's a matter of fine tuning the size and intensity to get a good effect. Make it too large and it starts casting multiple shadows. You can right click the slider to set intensity numerically.

Post by spacekdet // Feb 6, 2006, 3:50pm

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Upon further experimentation, I found that if I increase the shadowmap size past a certain point, NO shadows at all are rendered and there is no "generating shadowmap" delay- it just renders quickly with no shadowcasting. The maximum shadowmap size appears to be 4096. Shadows disappeared somewhere in the 3340 range. I'm not sure if this is just a quirk of my scene/ machine, but it was unexpected.
I'm attaching two screenshots, one with mapped and one with raytraced shadows.

Post by frank // Feb 6, 2006, 3:50pm

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Thanks, spacekdet!


Well, I still can't get it quite right with Area or Spot lights so I'm playing with omnis w/ attenuation set.


...funny thing now is that when selecting Render Method:Raytrace, after I render, it changes back to Render Method:Scanline. LOL!


No keyframes are set - it just changes.

Post by frank // Feb 6, 2006, 3:58pm

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We were posting at the same time there.


That disappearing-shadow thing is strange, Spacekdet. I know I usually put the size in computer-friendly numbers (512,1024,2048, etc....up to 4096)

...so I've never seen that. Wierd.


I'm doing some tests with omni lights right now (will post a pic shortly). They aren't giving me any trouble.


Thank you for checking into this, Spacekdet! After I render this test image, I'll play around some more with area light settings.

Post by frank // Feb 6, 2006, 4:50pm

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Here are some images with two omni lights - one set to mapped shadows, the other with shadow casting disabled.


As you can see, there are no shadow artifacts visible.



DOF Pro 2 filter applied to the last two images for fun.

Post by Alien // Feb 6, 2006, 5:13pm

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Where'd you get that DOF Pro 2 from? I found a DOF Pro, but not Pro 2, & it wasn't for tS, it was for Max. I checked out Digimation's site & it looks like they don't do anything for tS [at least, not any more].


<edit>

Nevermind, found it.:)

</edit>

Post by frank // Feb 7, 2006, 4:12am

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Hi Alien!


Here's the link to Richard Rosenman's DOF Pro 2:


http://www.richardrosenman.com/dofpro.htm


It's a Photoshop filter that works by using depth maps (actually you can use built-in gradient maps and other options). You can get a depth map by using a tSx that renders depth info (http://www.primitiveitch.com/php/catalog.php?uiKeySearch=piZBufferTool+1.1&), or you can use fog in the scene. I use the first method - tSx.


I really like the plugin. My only complaint is that it doesn't recognize TGA files (I prefer rendering frames as a TGA sequence with RLE so the files are perfect quality but still not massive) You have to use Bitmap (BMP) files for both the images and depth maps if you are doing an animation sequence. If you are doing a one-off image, you can use whatever Photoshop will open and the filter will be run on that active image (but the depth-map will have to be BMP).

Post by Alien // Feb 7, 2006, 4:47am

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Yeah, I found it not long after I asked the question. :o


I thought it would be some sort of tsx. I'm 1 of those guys who prefers to limit post processing outside of tS to cropping & resizing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising anyone who feels differently, it's just the way I want to do things.

Post by frank // Feb 7, 2006, 5:01am

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Alien: I thought it would be some sort of tsx. I'm 1 of those guys who prefers to limit post processing outside of tS to cropping & resizing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising anyone who feels differently, it's just the way I want to do things.


Alien: Have you played with trueSpace's built-in DOF? Also, if you are looking for another inside-trueSpace method, you can try the Yamaneko DOF shader. I believe the last time this was available it was sold with the Shader Pak.

Post by Alien // Feb 7, 2006, 5:18am

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Have you played with trueSpace's built-in DOF?

Not yet, it's on my list of things to try... when I actually have anything worth rendering. :o

Also, if you are looking for another inside-trueSpace method, you can try the Yamaneko DOF shader. I believe the last time this was available it was sold with the Shader Pak.I don't believe that's 1 of the Paks I bought, but I got the 4 main 1s - dePak, fxPak, rayPak, & aniPak. Maybe it was bundled in 1 of those. I haven't got any of them installed at the moment, but I'll look for it when I get round to installing them.


I really need to get started on modelling something! :o

Post by Bobbins // Feb 7, 2006, 6:50am

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To get back to the original problem.....


The fault with selecting mapped shadows and the setting returning to raytraced shadows with certain lights is a problem with the bridge. If you turn off the bridge and work only in the Model window, you can select and use mapped shadows with all supported lights correctly when rendering in LightWorks. Remember that turning off the bridge can cause other problems though - this is thoroughly discussed in Appendix A of the tS7 Artist's Guide.


As a side issue, if you select transparent shadows, then this forces raytraced shadows as only raytraced shadows support transparency. You might still see mapped shadows as being selected, but the transparency setting over-rides this and forces raytraced.

Post by frank // Feb 7, 2006, 6:56am

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Good information, Bobbins! Some of that is news to me, so I really appreciate it!

Post by seanr // Feb 13, 2006, 7:30am

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Yep, currently mapped shadows only work with omni's, goniometric lights and HDRI and only with lightworks. Vray is still in development so we will have to wait and see, In the mean time try area lights they seems to work alright with lightworks and Vray.Why in God's name did you guys break that? Mapped shadows used to work perfectly with spotlights. I used them all the time. Why couldn't you let them be set to mapped and then just force ray in Vray? Area lights kill the render time.

I want my mapped shadow back! Please quit breaking working (and needed) features. Vray isn't important enough to break half of lightworks in the process.

Post by daybe // Feb 13, 2006, 7:59am

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Hi Sean, I understand your frustration and this is important to me as well, but just to let you know this has been addressed, not sure when a patch will be available though but it has been corrected with the latest version of the beta I am currently working with.

Post by seanr // Feb 13, 2006, 8:03am

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THANK YOU. Please make sure it's in a free patch, though and not a paid upgrade (will 7.1 be a paid upgrade?).

Post by Bobbins // Feb 13, 2006, 11:02am

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Total Posts: 506
Sean,


Shadow mapped lights do work - just turn off the bridge and use them. They'll work perfectly with your spotlights in tS7.0 if you do that. They aren't broken. It's nothing to do with VRay. Shadow maps are there right now and you don't need to wait for a patch or worry about whether you'll have to pay any money.

Post by seanr // Feb 13, 2006, 11:08am

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How do I do that? What exactly is the bridge anyway?

Post by Bobbins // Feb 13, 2006, 11:25am

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Total Posts: 506
Well, you posted your reply while I was still typing mine......


Since you are not using the Player view at all, the easiest way is to just select the 'Full' layout which disables the bridge. This could well prevent the CPU spike you are seeing when ungluing objects you posted as well.


The bridge is the code that links the old tS architecture (the Model view) to the new tS architecture (the Player view).

Post by seanr // Feb 13, 2006, 11:50am

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OK. When in full mode, how do I get the panel on the right to reappear?

Post by Bobbins // Feb 13, 2006, 12:11pm

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Total Posts: 506
The 'panel on the right' - often called the 'stack' is a tS7 architecture feature, so by choosing the Full layout which come some way to emulating tS6 you forsake that. Changing layouts back to default will return the stack.
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