More hair please

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More hair please // Feature suggestions

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Post by splinters // Apr 2, 2008, 2:55am

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A big request this, and I am not sure how such things fit into the future of tS, but I would dearly like to see more hair features. We have, at the moment, the very basic features but I would like to see controls for crimp, wave, frizz etc as well as clumping and hair guides. I just cannot use it as it is and it is the only reason (at the moment) I am dabbling with Carrara.

If the hair could be converted to geometry that tS could use I would be happy but I don't really want to compose my scenes or render in Carrara...:(

Post by Burnart // Apr 2, 2008, 11:20am

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Gets my vote.


(BTW.... just how long has Poser had hair as well as a fabric sim capabilities? 5 or 6 years? I really thought tS would have them by now.)

Post by splinters // Apr 2, 2008, 12:21pm

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Hair, in it's basic form, seems to be becoming a staple of all rounders lately. Animation master has had it for years and I am not against paying for a plug in either but there simply isn't a choice with tS. I made this image with the old alpha hair plug in but it is very limited and took time and a lot of poly's. I could have made something far better in no time with Carrara (sorry, but it is true!).


I just can't bring it back into tS so it is pretty useless unless I move over to Carrara for modelling and rendering too. I wonder if there will ever be a standard hair format for interchange between programs like there is for mocap and poly/mesh geometry....

Post by jamesmc // Apr 2, 2008, 1:15pm

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(in my best British Parliament voice)

Hair! Hair!

Post by transient // Apr 2, 2008, 2:31pm

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I just can't bring it back into tS so it is pretty useless unless I move over to Carrara for modelling and rendering too.

You might want to consider your options a bit more thoroughly. There's been a miniature version of the recent user revolt here going on at the carrara and hex forums.

The issue is, of course, bugs; and the future direction of the software (Daz makes all it's money from content sales, not software, so basically the software is being designed to sell more content).

It's a situation that's becoming all too familiar lately, except in the open source scene which has been delivering on all fronts lately. Weird.

Post by Burnart // Apr 2, 2008, 6:18pm

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.... There's been a miniature version of the recent user revolt here going on at the carrara and hex forums.

The issue is, of course, bugs; and the future direction of the software (Daz makes all it's money from content sales, not software,.....

It's a situation that's becoming all too familiar lately, except in the open source scene ....

Its catch 22s everywhere. If only Blender had a nicer interface! If only DAZ wasn't driven by content sales. If only updates for tS would address the modelside. (ie new features - I know its not going to happen). Since tS 7 came out I've spent remarkably little time on the workspace side apart from some modelling tasks.

The anim tools seem great and I like the new bones structure but without something like Motion Studio and/or JointMaster to manipulate figures I find it very difficult to do much with it. The lack of tools such as dynamic hair (remember the thread!) just emphasise the usability issues. On top of everything lately I feel I'm battling the software to do what I want - as divorced from battling my ignorance.

Post by transient // Apr 2, 2008, 7:49pm

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There's definitely no perfect answer to what software someone should use. I just like how the blender foundation goes about it's business - if they slay the interface dragon, watch out.


I also think the animation tools in workspace are coming along very well, especially with clintonman's constraints. Unfortunately, messiah costs about the same as tS and has a top-notch renderer as well, so it's going to be hard to sell it on that basis alone. Still, very nice potential there.


I will also put up my hand for better hair tools in tS, for what it's worth. We still have no idea whether there's any point discussing render-related issues beyond 7.6.

Post by Emmanuel // Apr 2, 2008, 9:44pm

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Its catch 22s everywhere. If only Blender had a nicer interface! If only DAZ wasn't driven by content sales. If only updates for tS would address the modelside. (ie new features - I know its not going to happen). Since tS 7 came out I've spent remarkably little time on the workspace side apart from some modelling tasks.

The anim tools seem great and I like the new bones structure but without something like Motion Studio and/or JointMaster to manipulate figures I find it very difficult to do much with it. The lack of tools such as dynamic hair (remember the thread!) just emphasise the usability issues. On top of everything lately I feel I'm battling the software to do what I want - as divorced from battling my ignorance.


Wize words Burnart.
Although I belive Workspace bones, dynamics and animation are all designed for real-time environments and thus not adapted to Splinter needs, the lack of joins control via sliders in a 2D panel is a problem for everyone.

Now, regarding hair : Splinter and I, like the other beta testers, have been testing the new Workspace hair tool for some months. We reported the bugs and some of us gave our opinion on the interface/workflow.
It appeared to me quite early that the tools and workflow for hair was not what I was looking for. But I am not a software engineer, nor a developper, and my comments are limited to "I like the way hair is managed in this softare / I don' like the way it works in that other one", so I guess it did not helped Caligari developpers very much :o
Caligari's approach was interesting though, and I wondered if I could get used to its new -hairbrush style- workflow after some time.
But the fact is that trueSpace's hair, just like the rest of Workspace tools, are being ignored because Workspace is not finished and since we work in Modeler they are still one Bridge too far.
As a result, I am still using the old Hair plugin that is more reliable that trueSpace's Hair when rendered with V-Ray from Modeler :)
It has all I need : a preview window, most common settings, and generates a polygonal model I can animate with the ClothMotion plugin...
See below.

Since we have a plateform that works for illustration -the Modeler- and an other one that works for real-time -Workspace-, I beg Caligari/Microsoft to keep both software in their respective role.
Modeler is known as "old" and that does not push sales. This is the unique reason why development under that interface is stopped.
But it is not a "bad" tool. Many trueSpace professional users are making a living from it. Any improvement and new functionality will be greately appreciated by the fans.
There was no market for a better hair plugin because no 3rd party developper was ready to invest 2 months of his time (let's say US$ 5000) into a tool that only 10 people only would buy for $250. That's this simple ; we always come down to the materialist thing :p

Question for Splinter -and everyone- : how much are you willing to spend for a true hair plugin that works with Lightworks, V-Ray and 3delight ?

Post by transient // Apr 2, 2008, 10:32pm

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I can't seem to find hair.tsx anywhere, and the link from the old forums is dead. Is there any chance of uploading it here?


I also agree with keeping the original modeler for illustrators. It's got a lot going for it as is.

Post by splinters // Apr 2, 2008, 11:22pm

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You might want to consider your options a bit more thoroughly. There's been a miniature version of the recent user revolt here going on at the carrara and hex forums.


Not an option at all transient, just a piece of software I got for £38 that has amazingly easy and effective hair i wish tS had.

I certainly have not invested my work into it...just dabbling.


Edit, here is the tsx.

Post by splinters // Apr 2, 2008, 11:32pm

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Emmanuel, I would pay a reasonable amount depending on what features it had. Bear in mind I got Carrara Pro 6 for £38 and it has excellent hair but I cannot use it in tS (not geometry).

Hair.tsx is ok but it has no clumping, wave, brush, guides etc. I can use it for clumps of grass and fur but not styled hair. I am not even asking for dynamic hair in the first instance; just hair I can style, colour, cut and groom.


For me to pay, say $100, for a plug-in, it would need to be much better than either carrara or hair.tsx functions.

I wonder what dribble will bring to the table, even though I realise it will only be a rendering process and nothing we can groom.

Post by transient // Apr 2, 2008, 11:52pm

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Not an option at all transient, just a piece of software I got for £38 that has amazingly easy and effective hair i wish tS had.

I certainly have not invested my work into it...just dabbling.


The hair in Carrara 6 is excellent, I guess I was just trying make the point that the grass isn't necessarily greener as far as annoyances go.


Hopefully, Caligari have seen the good work the Carrara guys have done and will try to beat them.


Thanks a lot for the plug-in.:)

Post by Emmanuel // Apr 3, 2008, 12:01am

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I wonder what dribble will bring to the table, even though I realise it will only be a rendering process and nothing we can groom.


A fur shader, that gives a realistic look of short hair like marmot fur is what Dribble will probably offer... and it is exactly what I need :)


Hair we can groom is a different thing.

First, I have noticed that even the most advanced toolset hardly reproduce the reality.

And second, I belive that grooming introduces a workflow modeler/animators are not used to : hairdressing :p My brother in law is an hairdresser. He tried to teach me some rules for better use of workspace hair and I realized he was better than me in that trueSpace tool use !

Post by splinters // Apr 3, 2008, 8:32am

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All i want is something like this. No grooming, apart from cutting some areas away, and a few slider tweaks to get frizz and wave etc. If I spent longer I could get much better results. Below is simple sphere with clumping of hair via slider.

Post by Burnart // Apr 3, 2008, 11:39am

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Splinters is that the Carrara hair? Damn that looks like fun. - I have to admit I've been holding out looking at Carrara too deeply yet as I want to finish a tS anim I'm working on, thankfully nothing requires hair!

Post by splinters // Apr 3, 2008, 12:22pm

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Yup, Carrara 6 Pro hair. It is excellent as a built in feature. I am not trying to promote this program over tS; just using a real program example of what I think tS hair could be...:o


I should also point out that I never like Carrara from the first version. I had 5 pro on my PC since I got it free with 3D world; never used it. I picked up 6 pro for very little recently after seeing that youtube video of dynamic hair. As I play with the program it appeals to me more and more but I remain focussed on using tS as all of my assets are made in tS alone. As I said before, if tS had this kind of hair, I would uninstall Carrara and wouldn't miss it.


I just wish you could somehow export the hair as geometry back into tS. There is no real (easy) way of 'matching up' two different scenes in different programs in order to composite later

Post by Steinie // Apr 3, 2008, 12:41pm

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I too have bought Carrara 6 Pro but haven't installed it yet. The hair examples you are showing are nice and I hope Caligari looks at them as an example of how they can take hair in TS 7.51 to the next level.


Maybe we'll get them to do it if I can convince Caligari "maps" in certain parts of the world are made from animal hair. ;)

Post by jayr // Apr 7, 2008, 1:02pm

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Better Hair sim is deffinatly something TS needs and in theory shouldn't be to far away. The physics in 7.51 are amazing and the videos in the captains blog show that TS could handle interactive hair ( think in clumps not individual strands), what we need is a shader to bring it all together.

I've recently had a go on Sasquatch on Lightwave and the way it deal with hair and fur is great, newer versions do animation too, we need sometinhg like that.

To answer Emmanuel's question, i think i'd pay about £100-150 for an amazing hair plugin, but it would have to be Amazing!

Post by Burnart // Apr 7, 2008, 1:41pm

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I have a real mental block when it comes to US$100 - that seems to be my cut off point for software. I've picked up Carrara Pro and Hexagon this year theoretically $700 worth but I actually paid about $100. I'd never have paid the full price on either of them. The price is the thing. When I bought into tS it was on a massive discount update from the free version of tS 3 to 6.6. Cost more than $100 but I am willing to pay more only for my core software.

Post by transient // Apr 7, 2008, 4:53pm

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Better Hair sim is deffinatly something TS needs and in theory shouldn't be to far away.


A tS developer said in another thread that dynamic hair wasn't possible with the current system. Shortly afterwards Carrara came out with it's impressive tech, so maybe this will change things for trueSpace, which is often compared (somewhat unfairly) with Carrara - particularly by snaky ex-users.;)

Post by jayr // Apr 7, 2008, 10:44pm

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A tS developer said in another thread that dynamic hair wasn't possible with the current system. Shortly afterwards Carrara came out with it's impressive tech, so maybe this will change things for trueSpace, which is often compared (somewhat unfairly) with Carrara - particularly by snaky ex-users.;)


I took that to mean 'the curren hair system' not TS in general

Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 8, 2008, 12:04am

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Well... we can already fake dynamic hair with the current hair implementation using vertex shaders like Parva demonstrated with his wavy grass example.

It'll be interesting to see what the new cloth physics bring to the table regarding hair. What's amazing is that the cloth physics work in real-time as you can see in the videos, which means that an eventual hair solution could likely be real-time as well. How cool would that be? Real-time dynamic hair?? :D

Post by jayr // Apr 8, 2008, 12:12am

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where's the wavy grass example?

Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 8, 2008, 12:18am

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This thread here:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5211

Parva also posted a video tutorial in the thread to show how to set the grass up.

Post by parva // Apr 8, 2008, 9:47am

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no hair there I used the same texture as for grass :D


but's realtime ^^

11976

11977

42k polygons


yeah yeah, the wave motion is simple I know *g*

Post by jayr // Apr 8, 2008, 10:11am

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is that one realtime? how are you doing this? is it the hairstyling tools or a code you're using?

Post by parva // Apr 8, 2008, 10:21am

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yes realtime,
yes done with the current hair toolset,
yes I used a custom vertex shader for the animation (a simple but fast one).

Post by splinters // Apr 8, 2008, 10:52am

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It is indeed excellent Parva, but your knowledge of using the LE, scripts and shaders is bordering on legendary.


Now I can comb hair and color and style it (as an artist) if I get the grooming tools. I can do it with Carrara easily. I don't doubt you can get similar results with tS (with enough effort and head scratching). I am just asking for a similar grooming toolset to Carrara...and perhaps some of their shaders...:D


And if it could do this;


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EFLQIUrLENc


I would be very happy indeed.

Post by jayr // Apr 8, 2008, 11:35am

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thats really good, wouldn't have expected that kind of quality in Carrara but i've hardly used it.

looking at the realtime cloth fx in TS i really am hoping for something great like that.

any chance you could do a 'Hair Effects' scripting tutorial parva?

Post by Burnart // Apr 8, 2008, 1:09pm

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Parva I have no comprehension of how you could possibly achieve this look in tS 7.5 - how about a brief tute for dummys?
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