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Camera Lens!!
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Camera Lens!! // Feature suggestions
Post by prodigy // Nov 10, 2006, 10:34am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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2 Things i found important to improve...
1) Set the mm of the camera.. like 50mm its normal.. 200mm its teleobjective.. (Sorry my english) Teleobjetivo..
30mm its wide and loke 10 or less is eye fish...
This to set to the camera and not at eye... how wide or how far...
2) Lens on the render.. like Panoramic.. 360º ... Eyefish.. are very powerfull to the renders..
Best Regards..
VirtuaLight.. have very very nice.. lens ... Thats im talking about...
AND A PLUS!!! i allways think.. it must be GREaTT.. the posibility to Record a mouse move.. on the camera.. Like Push rec.. and you move the camera in real time with the mouse over the animaiton and record each Keyframe from the mouse movements.. And this is preaty way to make a handy camera effect..
Maybe a good script can be support that!
Best REgards.. |
Post by prodigy // Apr 21, 2007, 7:36am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Here is an example from VRAY Cameras.. Hope some day be supported on Ts Vray :)
Click here.. (http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150R1/examples_camera.htm) |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 21, 2007, 11:21am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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Oh, incredibly hard request. I've never seen any program or plugin even for professional photographic use that accurately does this for all cases.
Do you mean a 50mm lens for a 35mm SLR camera, a D-SLR camera, a 4/3 D-SLR camera, a P&S camera from any one of dozens of manufacturers using any number of different imaging chips, an Arri 35mm film camera in 1.18:1, 1.33:1, 1.36:1, 1.66:1, 1.85:1 or 2.35:1, a Sony 8mm camcorder, a Hitachi DV camcorder, a Canon HD camcorder or perhaps just a digital camcorder in 4:3, 16:9, 16:10, 1.33:1, 5:4 or 25:16? Maybe it was just SXGA at 5:4. Huh?
I think I've forgetten a few thousand other combinations of manufacturers, imaging technologies and delivery formats, but you get the idea. |
Post by Asem // Apr 21, 2007, 11:41am
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Asem
Total Posts: 255
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There will always be a lot of those but it would be nice and if and when Caligari decides to add this feature it would be nice to maybe have a vote on a certain amount of types and what those should be (maybe 5) and support a good amount of lens or at least the ones that was shown in the link. Caligari would always be able to add on to that list as time goes on would be nice though but for the time being I guess you can just trick the camera by placing a deformed mesh with glass material in front of the camera (actually saw software so this as an actual feature). |
Post by prodigy // Apr 21, 2007, 11:44am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Naaa bobbins.. why you think are so dificult??
Just a camera lens!! Eyefish.. or panoramic lens, that is no hard at all.. If Virtualight have it, why you say is a hard request??
and about 50mm. i dont need any camera lens of any model.. thats is not what im requesting... If is normal (50mm) no deformation and 200mm is teleobjective.. and 30 is a wideangle.. just a ts setting to get aprox a real camera setting on the ts cameras.. just that..
You can calibrate that with a single camera..
If i had time tomorrow i will make a test for you.. :) and you will see is not dificult at all... |
Post by prodigy // Apr 21, 2007, 12:19pm
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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And by the way.. i never talking about simulate any camera.. just the lens..
You can see vray have it.. Virtualight have it too..
Just the lens, not the simulation of any camera..
About the millimeters, maybe im must explain what is.. because many of you may dont understand what im talking about..
on a zoom?? like the ts camera simulation lens? you can zoom in to a object or zoom back from a object without changing the camera location. Thats thanks to the zoom lens..
About the lens you can find 4 types
1) Wideangle
2) Normal
3) Teleobjectives
4) Macro (im not gonna talk about this)
A Zoom is the combination of more than 2 diferent lens..
50mm is a normal lens.. and anything above 50mm is a teleobjective and any lens below 50mm is a wideangle.. very simple.. norma us just only 50mm
If i listen some day " i have a 50 ~ 200 mm lens" first that is a zoom, it means have a combination of normal lens but you can zoom in to a far object with the teleobjective lens.
or if i say i have a 40 ~150 another zoom lens, and you can change from a wideangle - normal and teleobjective
If i say i have a 45mm that is not a zoom just a 45mm wideangle lens..
anything below 30mm are called Eyefish lens. (panoramic or 360° pictures)
That first..
About my request, Vray and Virtualight have a simulation for example of a eyefish lens.. you can see clearly what im talking about in the document on the 2nd post..
Thats is what i request for the futures releases...
I dont care about the exactly simulation of any type of company lens..
The lens arethe same allways with few diferent corrections, but who cares about that??
Just see the document.. |
Post by RichLevy // Apr 21, 2007, 3:19pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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2 other programs that use a similar approach, I think it is a great idea.
Rich |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 21, 2007, 9:24pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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2 other programs that use a similar approach, I think it is a great idea.
Rich
I remember that being in 3Ds Max back at version 1.. It was very useful.. |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 21, 2007, 9:36pm
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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OK, let me explain.
The reason you'd normally want to specify a particular lens type is so you can match a rendered image to a real picture - either photo or video - for compositing CG and live elements. In this case it's critical that the camera views match.
The problem is that simply specifying a '50mm lens' is meaningless on it's own as the field of view that lens delivers depends entirely on the imaging device used in the camera - either real or CG.
Let's take, say a 32mm lens. That's a short wide lens yes? Let's see:
On a 35mm film camera it would be regarded as a short wide lens.
On my D-SLR with it's APS-C sized sensor it would be regarded as a standard lens as the 1.5x conversion means it is 32mm x 1.5, or the equivalent of a 48mm lens on a 35mm film camera.
On my compact point and shoot camera with it's 1/2.8" sensor and 6x conversion it's now the equivalent of a 190mm lens on a 35mm film camera. You'd probably regard that as a reasonable telephoto.
But this is the same 32mm lens we are talking about and it's now a wide, normal and a telephoto lens! So simply setting up a camera in tS, saying "it's a camera with a 32mm lens" and rendering will almost certainly give the wrong result when I match my CG element onto the live image. As I say, specifying a 32mm lens on it's own is meaningless. You need to know that it's a 32mm lens on what type of camera for it to be of any use. Better still, forget the lens length and just specify the field of view (which is what the screenshots in Rich's post shows). |
Post by prodigy // Apr 22, 2007, 6:39am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Well.. that is true, but!!!!!
The real function of a lens simulation is not for merge photos with cg.. just take a more realistic renders. Thats the point..
5525 |
Post by prodigy // Apr 22, 2007, 7:27am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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And..
5526
Here is a screen shoot from max trial.. and look how max solve that "big" problem..
You just click on a 35mm and your setup be 35mm, click on 200mm and the set up is 200mm and the degree is in fact put 180° and you have a nice "eye fish or a panoramic lens".... thants all.. nothing complex.. Just what i request...
In fact im sure with a simple script is very very simple to do in truespace..
Hope you understand.. |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 22, 2007, 9:56am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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Well, you clearly haven't understood a word, have you? The only parameter on that panel that makes any sense is the FoV setting. The others might make you feel good, but don't mean a lot. |
Post by prodigy // Apr 22, 2007, 11:41am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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The Fov calls a specific mm and the mm calls a specific fov.. :D
And the show cone is a good option too..
I understad clearly what you say.. and i post that and you are right.. but just take this more simplest..
1) Support lens effects
2) Get better the settings on Ts cameras..
thats all! |
Post by Steinie // Apr 22, 2007, 12:30pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Seems to me the other Companys know what the customer wants and Caligari is telling us it's not what we need. I understand completely. Tell me what you do offer then? How do you approximate a 50Mm lens? |
Post by TomG // Apr 23, 2007, 2:30am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Caligari has not commented at all on this thread.
Note that beta testers are listed as "beta testers: Team Caligari" but they are not company members, and anything they say is not an official policy or statement, but remains the statement of another tS user just like you.
HTH,
Tom |
Post by Steinie // Apr 23, 2007, 2:48am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I think the "Team Caligari" label you both share might be misleading then.
I thought it odd to read this statement "Well, you clearly haven't understood a word, have you? " from (I thought) a member of Caligari...
Thanks TomG for clearing that up. |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 23, 2007, 3:11am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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No, I'm not an employee of Caligari.
My comment was based on the fact that:
- Somebody asked for the ability to press a button marked "50mm" and get a tS camera with a 50mm lens.
- I pointed out, with a full explanation, why a "50mm lens" is completely meaningless on it's own.
- The person agreed.
- The person agreed a second time then posted screenshots showing how Max trial solves the problem by having - ta da - a button marked "50mm Lens".
If I remember correctly, the Player Camera objects have a FOV value in one the LE aspects. Anybody sufficiently interested would be able to calculate the FOV values that correspond to real word camera/lens combinations and type the value in - with a little more effort you could even create your own aspect with preset values to use. I won't be able to get back in front of tS for a day or two, but I'll check on that when I next get chance. |
Post by prodigy // Apr 23, 2007, 5:06am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Bobbins, Your explanation its very cool, but is not what i request..
You go far far away from my request.. i request something more simple..
Max "trial" have that simple thing.. its true and its cool..
First i like to see in a future Camera lens distortions like Vray or Virtualight.
Just a Panoramic lens, eye fish effects blablabla...
About the 50mm button is very very simple.. IMO
Here is what im talking about (http://www.digicamhelp.com/learn/glossary/normal-lens.php)
Anytime the point of Reference is a 35mm because any photocamera is a 35mm and because any cinema camera is a 35mm (nobody tellsme whats happend with a I-Max camera 73mm)
I dont care the conversion of a digital photo with a zoomx3 because is not interesting at all.
Just add a 50mm button and the perspective of the ts camera set in the middle to dont make distortion on a render like a tele or like a wideangle lens.. Just Normal..
Thats all.. just a "Simulation" of a 35mm lens over a truespace camera..
And Show cone is a good tip and add a target camera its cool too..
I just request something interesting, usesfull for caligari... add more features on a simple camera..
Max have many other features ( i try to post here but i think are more complex to explain) right now i saw in max it have that..
TS are a little behind in features..
I just try to explain why are so important.. |
Post by prodigy // Apr 23, 2007, 5:25am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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On a real camera the Dof is not a setting.. is a distortion of a lens..
I think right now is dificult to set the focus on the object.. I saw heidi's renders and sometimes the focus are moved.. maybe you try few times to know where is the focus and thats is not optimized for the user...
Max have that problem solved..
* Im not trying to say max is cool! just max solve that problem very easy for the Final users.. Caligari must work on this kind of problems too in the future..
The camera have distance and with that distance to calculete were you need the focus, equal as a real camera. Easy, simplest and Cool..
5549
That is what we need in the future...
*Sorry if im talking about max but is the better way to explain are others work on this, and they dont think its a lost of time.. |
Post by parva // Apr 23, 2007, 6:03am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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Those points are all already made in Betaforum and surely are all already made in the past.
You can wait for those features. You can make it yourself (sometime). Or you can move to another program (btw. this stuff is standart in all common 3d programs).
And yes I agree with all points prodigy ;)
And because the thread begun with a vray-lense request.
v1.5 has physical camera - link (http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150R1/vrayphysicalcamera_params.htm)
but OK... :D |
Post by prodigy // Apr 23, 2007, 6:09am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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I dont want move to other program.. just ts be better with time and support from us too.
We dont know whats happend on Beta testers forum.. its unknown land for us.. Sorry if that is duplicated but i request this for a looong time ago..
and i only add few plus to this thread..:D |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 25, 2007, 12:21am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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I checked the camera nodes in the LE - both the Default and Expanded aspects have a FOV value setting. It would only take a few minutes to set up a simple scene and work out the values needed to emulate the field of view for any given camera/lens combination. A few more minutes work and you could design your own aspect with presets to choose.
Note that this does not address the points about visually setting depth of field parameters. |
Post by nowherebrain // May 2, 2007, 3:03pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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BTw: you know that tS can do nearly true DOF out of the box....
1)give your camera a target(look at something).
2) give the camera a star pattern animation based on it's x and z coords..
..(make certain it is in 1 frame increments from location to location)
3)render as an animation with the number of camera frames used as the length
***you must apply motion blur!!!
4)play with the settings until you find your comfort zone..
5)composite the individual frames to one image(requires external image editor with layer support...GIMP is free)
*NOTE* this is good for stillsanimations just aren't efficient..you really need to play with anim lengths in the scene, then speed up the end result in an external editor. With this method you can use lightworks for it. |
Post by TomG // May 3, 2007, 4:00am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Lightworks has it's own DOF settings btw, so the technique below is an option for getting DOF in Lightworks for sure, but you can just use the native Lightworks DOF tool if you prefer.
The same technique (of using motion blur in rendering) can be used to get soft shadows by animating a light spinning slightly off axis, its shadows then become blurred (and blurrier the farther the shadow falls from the casting object, not constantly blurry, so very realistic in how they work).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by nowherebrain // May 3, 2007, 1:57pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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@Tom: I was thinking about that myself, these "hacks" have been used in Lightwave for years (I am also a LW user).
I really do not like the native DOF...it's off somehow. |
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