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Improving LE navigation
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Improving LE navigation // Feature suggestions
Post by Alien // May 14, 2006, 8:20am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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With my recent dalliances in the LE, & given that the LE is pretty much the base of tS7's power, I've had an idea about a way to make LE navigation easier.
There's 2 parts to my idea:
1. instead of just having the current location [eg Windows Manager Space] to the left of the Artist & Developer tabs, I was thinking if the tabs were moved over to the left, there'd be room to show the full path [or most of it] in the titlebar of the LE window, like Windows Explorer does with the address bar [or it's titlebar, if you have the relevant option turned on]. Or maybe you could even have an Explorer-like address bar just below the titlebar.
2. Also, I was thinking that it would make life much easier, & also make it easier to remember what's where in the LE hierachy, if we had a "tree view" type pane on the left of the LE [with the option to hide it for those who might not want it].
If you like, I can do a mock-up in PSP to better show how I imagine it. |
Post by parva // May 14, 2006, 9:40am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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Agree with you Alien. Generally a tree based editor or alike for LE or standalone.
Another thing for faster LE navigation would be bookmarks the user can manually set. |
Post by Alien // May 14, 2006, 11:58am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Agree with you Alien. Generally a tree based editor or alike for LE or standalone.
Another thing for faster LE navigation would be bookmarks the user can manually set.
D'oh! http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/slap.gif I knew I forgot something, thanks. |
Post by Alien // Aug 22, 2006, 8:12pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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This is just an example of 1 minor improvement to the LE I was thinking of. In fact, I think this [look at the title bar of the window] should have been implemented from the start.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/link-editor-001.png
...but this is more along the lines of what I was hoping for:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/link-editor-002.png |
Post by JPSofCA // Aug 22, 2006, 8:24pm
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JPSofCA
Total Posts: 300
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I like the full path info in the titlebar...I often wonder where I'm at when navigating through the many levels of the LE myself. :) |
Post by Alien // Aug 23, 2006, 1:44am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I've just backed up my tS7 folder - gonna see if I can make any progress towards implementing this on my own. I don't hold out that much hope though, as it'll probably be "way over my head", but it doesn't hurt to try... as long as you back up 1st. :D
If any Devs or their fellow Caligarians feel like sharing any info on how & where the "path" is stored, accessed, & changed, it'd be much appreciated. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/beg.gif |
Post by stan // Aug 23, 2006, 3:47am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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the tree would be good..problem with the path idea it would be so long at times it would be under the tabs unless they are moved to the right..:D |
Post by Emmanuel // Aug 23, 2006, 7:02am
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Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
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I don't feel the need for a tree or a path to improve LE navigation.
To me, LE is a convenient 2D space to create behaviors for objects, create new tools, modify panels and existing tools, etc.
But IN NO WAY a normal space to achieve basic edition such as shader edition, lights options setting or object modification. Such things should room in the stack view, with the scene tree.
Because even with the best navigation interface, the LE concept, with its display by level of depth into object, is not suited to scene edition at all. |
Post by Alien // Aug 23, 2006, 8:04am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I forgot to mention how I envisage the changes in my 2nd mock-up working.
When on the Artist or Developer tab, the tree pane would be hidden, but it would appear when the Explorer tab is selected. Also, you'd be able to close/hide the pane by clicking its X button, which [ideally] would cause the LE to revert to the last used tab [though if it's created by me, rather than Caligari or anyone else, it'll most likely just revert to the Developer tab because a) it would be simpler, & b) I pretty much never use the artist tab].
Another feature I was thinking of [& almost definitely beyond my capability] is the ability to drag stuff from the LE to a different "folder" on the tree pane, & when letting go it would give a pop-up menu similar to the 1 you get when you right-click & drag something in Windows Explorer, with "Copy here", "Move here", & "Cancel" as the options.
Oh, nearly forgot the Favourites function! http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/slap.gif I think that a good place for that would be on the tree pane, with it having 2 tabs - 1 for tree, & the other for favourites.
the tree would be good..problem with the path idea it would be so long at times it would be under the tabs unless they are moved to the right..:D
Yeah. I did have the tabs further to the right in the 1st pic, but moved them over to make room for the Explorer tab & didn't think to move them back a bit afterwards. :)
I think the "address bar" underneath is a better idea. As I said previously, I don't rate my chances of being able to do this myself that highly, but if I do I'll probably have the address bar stay there all the time, even when the tree pane is hidden when viewing the Artist or Developer tabs.
I don't feel the need for a tree or a path to improve LE navigation.
To me, LE is a convenient 2D space to create behaviors for objects, create new tools, modify panels and existing tools, etc.
Yes, exactly - the thing is, if you want to create new tools, toolbars, buttons, etc you need to learn your way around the LE better, & being able to see the full path would make that easier, as [IMO] would the tree pane.
But IN NO WAY a normal space to achieve basic edition such as shader edition, lights options setting or object modification. Such things should room in the stack view, with the scene tree.
Because even with the best navigation interface, the LE concept, with its display by level of depth into object, is not suited to scene edition at all.
I think there's room for both concepts [Scene Editor & LE]. Different people want different things out of tS. Whilst I would like to be able to create stunning stills & amazing animations, I'm a "tweaker" at heart, & want to be able to fiddle about with, modify, & customise tS to my heart's content - which is where the LE comes in. |
Post by stan // Sep 24, 2006, 12:05pm
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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we now can create our own LE shortcuts..
read here-> http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=15964#post15964
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: |
Post by Alien // Sep 30, 2006, 11:29pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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we now can create our own LE shortcuts..
read here-> http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=15964#post15964
Yeah, that is definitely a step in the right direction. I'm hoping it won't be too long before someone figures out how to make it work in a more [internet/file-system] browser-like way. |
Post by Gwot // Oct 14, 2006, 8:28pm
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Gwot
Total Posts: 25
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Well I started my character project a bit early, as I was anxious to start messing with the LE and hooking up my normal maps etc.
Right away I noticed I have to type in my numeric inputs by hand. I'm used to just dragging in the numeric inputs (to the right or left) to increase or decrease the values in my other softwares. In fact, if I don't see this feature in a program I use, I typically ask for it to be added ASAP. So here I am, asking for it. =D
Very rarely do I use precise hand-fed input. Adding modifier key support such as CTRL or Shift keys for controlling the speed and accuracy of numeric input sliding is all you really need to get more accurate results. These can be used to control number rounding, fine precision, or fast changes over large values.
For the record, I'm not asking for an actual visual representation of a slider (they eat up too much UI). Just the ability to drag right inside the numeric input box and watch the values increase/decrease as I do. Simple, elegant and far less painful when you are constantly adjusting input values. Of course the standard support for manually feeding in values should remain.
2 good examples of software that use this method are Motion Builder and soon to be released, Silo 2 (the feature is in the Silo2 beta right now if you have access to it).
Cheers,
James |
Post by Bobbins // Oct 14, 2006, 8:40pm
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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Create a new aspect for the LE object of your own. You can add scrubbers, sliders, numeric input boxes, change the colours, set limits for the values and lay it out exactly as you want. You can't drag a numeric value to change it but adding a scrubber next to it is better (convention says that clicking and dragging in a numeric box will select the text to the left or right of where you clicked anyway).
The ability is already built in to the LE to allow you to customise aspects pretty much as you want so need to request it. |
Post by Alien // Oct 14, 2006, 10:25pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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The ability is already built in to the LE to allow you to customise aspects pretty much as you want so need to request it.
I think the point Gwot's trying to make [& if he isn't, then I am] is that having to customise each new object every time could get old really fast. Basic stuff like r/c copy & paste, being able to resize the LE panels [with a wotsit in the bottom right corner, like on the new libraries] so you can actually read what's in a text box, & the ability to change numerical fields just by rolling the mouse wheel [which has been in countless progs for years - I always hated that double arrow draggy thing in tS - it's ok for large/crude adjustments, but not for fine adjustments]. |
Post by SteveBe // Oct 14, 2006, 11:25pm
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SteveBe
Total Posts: 282
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Even when an object has a scrubber etc. I find myself fine tuneing it anyways.
Here's a quick flash tutorial: |
Post by Bobbins // Oct 15, 2006, 1:10am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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I think the point Gwot's trying to make [& if he isn't, then I am] is that having to customise each new object every time could get old really fast.
But you'd only have to customise an object once. When the LE aspect was set up for it as you want, you'd put it into a library to re-use it, surely? That way it would always come out with the same aspect every time you pulled it out of the library. You could even set your custom aspect to be the default one for that object.
The scrubbers in the LE can be user configured for the size of increment as well as the upper and lower limits for values. The increment step can be anything you choose - you're not limited to pre-defined ones. That way you can decide if you want a value to go up in large or small increments. For the very few occasions where I've wanted scrubbers to cover a huge range but with very fine control, I've used two scrubbers: one for, say 100s and another for, say 1s. |
Post by GraySho // Oct 15, 2006, 2:19am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Create a new aspect for the LE object of your own. You can add scrubbers, sliders, numeric input boxes, change the colours, set limits for the values and lay it out exactly as you want. You can't drag a numeric value to change it but adding a scrubber next to it is better (convention says that clicking and dragging in a numeric box will select the text to the left or right of where you clicked anyway):
The ability is already built in to the LE to allow you to customise aspects pretty much as you want so need to request it.
Why do so many people point out the possibilities instead of accepting the fact that there are things to improve? Customizing every single block within LE to get sliders isn't a very user friendly thing, nor is it a workflow improver. Though good to have, it doesn't replace work/improvements to be done on behalf of caligari.
I just had to reinstall tS7 because the player/modeler tabs are vanished, so with that comes reinstalling every single custom widget and menu. Not really user friendly if you ask me. I wish there was a better way to save a custom configuration, which in fact saves the whole thing and can be backed up for such cases. |
Post by Délé // Oct 15, 2006, 3:07am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I agree that the LE could do with some improvements. However, I wouldn't agree with dragging in the numeric input field to change the value. I often click and drag in the input fields to make selections.
I do completely agree with changing numeric values via mousewheel though. I would like to see mousewheel support for ALL numeric fields within the program. |
Post by Bobbins // Oct 15, 2006, 6:20am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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Why do so many people point out the possibilities instead of accepting the fact that there are things to improve? Customizing every single block within LE to get sliders isn't a very user friendly thing, nor is it a workflow improver. Though good to have, it doesn't replace work/improvements to be done on behalf of caligari.
Now, now. Do not go putting words into my mouth and don't presume you know what I accept and what I don't. I never said there aren't things to improve, I just pointed out that if somebody wants the ability to click and drag to change a value in an LE aspect, then they can. |
Post by Alien // Oct 15, 2006, 6:29am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Customizing every single block within LE to get sliders isn't a very user friendly thing, nor is it a workflow improver. Though good to have, it doesn't replace work/improvements to be done on behalf of caligari.
Exactly! The fact that it's so customisable is wonderful, but that doesn't mean that we the users should have to learn the ins-&-outs of said customisability just to have basic functionality that has been ubiquotous across all fields of software for years.
I just had to reinstall tS7 because the player/modeler tabs are vanished, so with that comes reinstalling every single custom widget and menu. Not really user friendly if you ask me. I wish there was a better way to save a custom configuration, which in fact saves the whole thing and can be backed up for such cases.
What about saving to the layout library, & then exporting from there?
I agree that the LE could do with some improvements. However, I wouldn't agree with dragging in the numeric input field to change the value. I often click and drag in the input fields to make selections.
As do I.
I do completely agree with changing numeric values via mousewheel though. I would like to see mousewheel support for ALL numeric fields within the program.
From your lips to Roman's ears. :) The same goes for anything with a scrollbar. |
Post by stan // Oct 15, 2006, 7:04am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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Originally Posted by GraySho
I just had to reinstall tS7 because the player/modeler tabs are vanished, so with that comes reinstalling every single custom widget and menu. Not really user friendly if you ask me. I wish there was a better way to save a custom configuration, which in fact saves the whole thing and can be backed up for such cases.
you can restore your custom layouts including things in the LE configuration..you must create a save current state file..ctx do not rewrite the default.ctx but keep updated versions of it, created with the 'save current state' icon,keep backed up versions elsewhere..then if something happens to your setup, delete default.ctx in the main directory and replace it with one of your backups..rename it default.ctx
that method has saved me countless times, for things that a layout configuration doesn't save
that file contains custom widgets info and other LE customizing..
but also save your custom layout to layout configurations library
my vote is scrollwheel in all LE editboxes by default :)
with editboxes used as OUT, we should not be forced to have only grey backgrounds..
sizable font in the SE.. |
Post by Gwot // Oct 15, 2006, 7:20am
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Gwot
Total Posts: 25
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Dele: Sorry, I wasn't implying that the existing functionality would change... you can still implement slider behaviour into a numeric input without altering the ability to select what's in there and still type in values or copy/paste etc. The reason this feature is now in Silo 2 is because I asked for it specifically and the devs agreed with me, along with several of the beta testers. It is a tried and true method for numeric input that keeps everyone happy and doesn't clutter your UI with extra slider or arrow widgets. You won't notice this if you have the silo 2 beta or if you ever end up using it, but before the arrow widgets were removed and replaced with this, silo was looking more cluttered and archaic like so many existing packages out there. Removing them made a huge difference to the visual and functional behaviour of the program and allowed it to maintain that 'less is more' approach to functionality that everyone loves about Silo.
I've messed with the extra configuration panel stuff and noticed all the slider and radio button functionality, and while I think that is definitely cool to have, and I will by using it for some things, to me it makes more sense being there for when you build your own custom tool panels that will most likely be meant for another user or yourself down the line as the parameters that such controls would drive would be in constant use/change.
I don't really like the idea of having to build a slider for values that I'm probably only going to change once or twice and then never touch again. I was hooking up about 15 different direct x shaders with normal maps, alphas, and color maps/blends last night and did a lot of numeric inputs by hand in that time. They didn't need to be precise, I just wanted quick on-the-fly adjustments to test my values.
I'm actually advocating for this as a global UI feature too by the way - not just something specific to the link editor. Anywhere that you can find numeric input within the program would be ideal, for the sake of consistency.
It really is the little things like this that add up into big workflow improvements, especially when you are using software like this for 8 - 14 hours a day.
Edit: I'm also a huge fan of the scroll wheel, so getting more use out of that in any way possible would be good, including numeric input. =]
One thing I'd like to note about the wheel though is that it can be a very powerful input tool that is best not used up for one thing specifically. I'd much prefer to see a contextual approach to using the mouse and wheel that changes based on active selections, viewports or tools, etc. Programs like XSI and Silo take full advantage of the wheel and use it for multiple things throughout the package. Things like numeric input, as mentioned already, brush size, grow/shrink component selections, soft selection fall-off radius, brush strength, bone heirarchy cycling, etc, are all great uses for the the wheel. The more uses you can put it towards, the less work you end up doing with the rest of the UI in order to make cool 3d stuff! =] |
Post by hemulin // Oct 15, 2006, 8:17am
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hemulin
Total Posts: 1058
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For those who have problems when tS7 breaks (ie player/modeller tabs vanish)
Once you've installed tS7 along with all patches, plugins, custom layouts, custom shortcuts and everything. Copy and Archive your whole tS7 folder.
If tS7 breaks you can just unzip this archive straight into wherever you installed tS and everything will be set up how you want it. And it won't overite and scenes you have in your scene library. So no need for a reinstall. |
Post by Steinie // Oct 15, 2006, 12:15pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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The feature Gwot mentioned about changing values by dragging is shown in the Nevercenter, Silo 2.0 "Preview Video" if anyone wants to see it in action. (Third one down)
http://www.nevercenter.com/silo/silo_20_beta/ |
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