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trueSpace slowdown and crashing
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
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trueSpace slowdown and crashing // New Users
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 3:15am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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I am having some major issues with trueSpace at the moment, as my polycount has increased I have noticed some problems occuring, tools not functioning as they normally would like the Add Edge tool doesn't react like it normally would. Also the program crashes often losing my work.
I don't have a weak PC either
System Spec
Intel Core2Duo Quad Q6600
250GB HDD
Nvidia GeForce 8600GT
2GB RAM
other 3D programs have no problems running at all, I am running Windows Vista Home Premium 32Bit, does anyone have any idea how to fix this? |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 3:42am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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Use limited polycounts as much as possible. Stay away from SDS as much as possible...or at least until your final image is complete. Move and adjust objects on the Workspace side. Large polycounts with some objects cannot be avoided, so create them last (if possible) and plan ahead as far as new object placements (as manipulated and placed on the Workspace side and saved in your newly desired placement in the scene..as your new scenes progress in stages).
And finally, wait for the program to consider its calculations...it may take a few minutes. However sometimes the saved scene is too far gone and needs a re-manipulation with the trouble causing objects. |
Post by TomG // Apr 15, 2009, 3:53am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Add Edge sometimes doesn't go where it would be nice for it to go. I dont think it's related to raw polycount, just to certain geometric situations (which perhaps are more likely to crop up the more polys you have). Should be unrelated to the crashes.
You don't say if its Model or workspace side you are using at the time, or what you are doing - modeling? rendering? Would also be interested to know what sort of polycount you are working with here too.
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 3:57am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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It always crashes in Workspace while I am modeling and the polycount currently stands at 579 faces. |
Post by TomG // Apr 15, 2009, 5:16am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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That's a tiny polycount :)
So, could be some invalid geometry is my current thinking. Any particular tools you are using when the crash happens? Is it always on one particular object or scene that you are currently working on? Can you post screen shots of the object or scene? If it is a particular object, what tools were used to make it?
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 5:26am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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All I have used so far are, Dynamic Sweep, Weld, Separate Object, Glue as Child and some primitives nothing special thats for sure. |
Post by TomG // Apr 15, 2009, 6:14am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Enough that some bad geometry could be created (eg with crossing faces etc), so it still could be that. Given the scene, that seems most likely, barring something like hardware issues (bad memory chip, overheating GPU, but those should show up elsewhere if that were the cause).
I'd see if particular tools are causing the crash, especially if you can get one that is reproducable (something like select these faces, dynamic sweep, try to sweep and crash, and it happens every time).
Can't really tell from the screengrab if there is bad geometry in there, the area around the front grill looks dense enough that it could have some issues.
You could test with some Model side tools, eg Try To Fix Bad Geometry, see what happens (it might fix it, sometimes it hangs though if there is a real problem).
If there is anyway you can share the model itself, then people can take a look and see if they too get a crash working with it, or if they can spot potential bad geometry areas. If you can't make it public, you could make it available just to Caligari staff, as then you have assurance it won't be copied, used, etc. You can reach me direct by mail at v-thgrim@caligari.com, I'll be happy to take a look at it directly myself, see if I can spot anything.
Are other scenes giving this problem, or are they still working as normal? What happens if you create something swiftly with this number of polys, maybe just quad divide a cube some, then run some sweeps on it, then haul some faces about, maybe even soft select to get some interesting stuff happening, see if it all remains stable?
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 6:27am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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Enough that some bad geometry could be created (eg with crossing faces etc), so it still could be that. Given the scene, that seems most likely, barring something like hardware issues (bad memory chip, overheating GPU, but those should show up elsewhere if that were the cause).
I'd see if particular tools are causing the crash, especially if you can get one that is reproducable (something like select these faces, dynamic sweep, try to sweep and crash, and it happens every time).
Can't really tell from the screengrab if there is bad geometry in there, the area around the front grill looks dense enough that it could have some issues.
You could test with some Model side tools, eg Try To Fix Bad Geometry, see what happens (it might fix it, sometimes it hangs though if there is a real problem).
If there is anyway you can share the model itself, then people can take a look and see if they too get a crash working with it, or if they can spot potential bad geometry areas. If you can't make it public, you could make it available just to Caligari staff, as then you have assurance it won't be copied, used, etc. You can reach me direct by mail at v-thgrim@caligari.com, I'll be happy to take a look at it directly myself, see if I can spot anything.
Are other scenes giving this problem, or are they still working as normal? What happens if you create something swiftly with this number of polys, maybe just quad divide a cube some, then run some sweeps on it, then haul some faces about, maybe even soft select to get some interesting stuff happening, see if it all remains stable?
HTH!
Tom
I have had a good look at the model and I can't see anything out of the ordinary geometry wise, the e-mail you have posted doesn't seem to work for me it got bounced back for some unknown reason.
What I may do is put this project on hold start a new one and see if the same issues occur as I work through that one and if it happens again I will be able to make a note of what was going on at the time. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 6:34am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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Sometimes, when the program gets too unstable, I find it necessary to reload trueSpace as a fresh application...and then proceed to start over with my model;) |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 6:38am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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Sometimes, when the program gets too unstable, I find it necessary to reload trueSpace as a fresh application...and then proceed to start over with my model;)
I have had to do that numerous times myself, sometimes after modeling for a while the graphics go odd, the mesh dissapears as I rotate the camera and when I try to click on a face or vert it vanishes. A restart of the program normally fixes it though. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 15, 2009, 6:42am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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That's really odd. I've not been able to create geometry that could crash WS since the devs added the geometry consistancy checking, and as long as you stay under 1 Million or so polys you should be fine on the polygon count.
Could be a video driver or video hardware issue. I have had crashing before with certain video drivers...
Is it random, or can you find a series of steps that reliably produces a crash? |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 6:45am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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So far it seems totally random, I have literally just updated my graphics drivers too I hadn't done it since November last year. Totally forgot about them :) |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 6:46am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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More than likely, you'd be better off to erase the model file, reload tS as a fresh application, and start all over with your model.
You should be able to sort it out, as I'm looking forward to seeing this model progress on your YouTube tutorial !!!:) |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 6:49am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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More than likely, you'd be better off to erase the model file, reload tS as a fresh application, and start all over with your model.
You should be able to sort it out, as I'm looking forward to seeing this model progress on your YouTube tutorial !!!:)
As it stands Mr. 3d I have pulled down that video about the tutorial until I get TS running right I also might make the tutorial about a different car as there are a few complex bits that would be hard to explain with the 10 minute limits on YouTube.
I am thinking I might switch it to a 350Z as that is a much easier car to start with especially for beginners. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 6:52am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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I noticed you said that you updated your Driver. Specifically, which one did you update, and was this happening before you updated the Driver ? |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 6:53am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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I have updated my graphics driver for my GeForce 8600GT, the crashes were happening on the old driver. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 15, 2009, 7:06am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I always feel stupid that my standard reply has basically become, "did you check your video driver?" But because trueSpace is so driver sensitive, more times than not that is the where the problem is. :o |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 7:08am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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I haven't been on TS since I updated the drivers so I don't know if it has helped just yet but I will take a look as soon as I have some free time :) |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 7:09am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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On my computer, updating the NVDIA GeForce Display Driver is not a wise decision. Display Drivers usually prefer their original factory sent format. If this is the only time you have ever updated it (from its original factory sent package) and you don't notice any odd behavior with your display, then I guess you're ok (even though I would probably restore the original factory Driver by using your Recovery Manager, considering that you may have previously updated it automatically without knowing it). Then I would reload trueSpace and begin troubleshooting from there (with your original factory sent Driver).
EDIT: We keep posting at the same time, so I keep missing what you post !!!:D
Definitely try the updated Driver first and see if that resolves any issues. I still would reload tS. |
Post by Shadow106 // Apr 15, 2009, 7:11am
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Shadow106
Total Posts: 49
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The driver I got with the card from new was digitally obtained, it downloaded the latest drivers automatically. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 15, 2009, 7:15am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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The original factory nVidia drivers sucked on Vista in most cases. It's not a matter of don't update them, you just have to find ones that work better than your old ones. The key is to use the ones that work best. ;)
A great place to get drivers for nVidia cards is:
www.laptopvideo2go.com (http://www.laptopvideo2go.com)
Mr. 3D, what kind of card do you have? For the 6xxx series, I have found that the pre-Vista drivers do indeed work better than the post-Vista ones. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 7:34am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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That's one possible direction that you and I were leading to for possible troubleshooting Jack !:)....Display Driver and computer and Graphics Card compatibility issues.
I, myself, don't use a Graphic Card. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 15, 2009, 8:07am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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All PC computers have a GPU chip, some are just built onto the motherboard. ;) It's a lot trickier finding good drivers for those. I just did it a few weeks ago for my sister with the HP laptop. She had a nVidia 6150 built into the motherboard. The newest drivers didn't work -- computer wouldn't even boot to Vista. It took a lot of hunting and trial and error, until I found one that worked right. Let me know if you want to know which one I used and I can check it next time I see her. |
Post by TomG // Apr 15, 2009, 8:11am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The email should have been v-thgrim@microsoft.com, sorry about that.
You definitely use a graphics card of some kind Mr 3D, otherwise you wouldn't see anything on your screen :) I extend that definition to include onboard graphics that are mounted on the motherboard, since they are graphics chipsets just like external cards, and need drivers too.
Note that original drivers that come from the factory are usually pretty poor. If its a laptop, you may have a hard time updating, but its still usually worth it (unless your laptop is new, eg the ASUS G50 my wife has runs just great).
Note that onboard graphics are truly awful in terms of performance, and generally even a 3 or 4 year old external card will beat onboard graphics.
So, what graphics chipset are you using Mr 3D?
On the original item, if a graphics driver, the problems will show up on any model, not just on this particular one. Important to test see if its tS that's unstable, or this particular scene, that is a major step in diagnosing any issues you run into. Drivers usually don't cause crashes though, but instead cause visual artefacts and display problems, but again testing another scene will see about that, as it is still possible for a driver to cause a crash, even a blue screen.
Anyway, again with more information maybe we can see what is going on - still happy to take a look at the model itself :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 8:52am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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I do NOT have any problems with my computer. I do NOT use a separate Graphics Card.
I have the built in NVIDA GeForce Go6150....you should not update this Driver with HP computers ! I have NO Display Driver problems (unless I update the Display Driver). I have helped others solve their problem with these updating issues (as even documented here on in the tS forums).
trueSpace will crash no matter what computer or Display Driver with an extra Graphics Card you choose. This is well documented throughout the tS users. Anything else you want to discuss ? |
Post by TomG // Apr 15, 2009, 9:06am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Not sure what you are saying there - tS doesnt crash from video issues on either of my machines, both running different cards. The chipset you are using would come to a grinding halt for most of the scenes I work with, so would be no good for me :)
Having an external graphics card is not what makes tS crash, just drivers. All GPUs have drivers, built in or external. Glad your system is stable for you and what you do, that is perfect! You are lucky that your drivers are so stable. It wouldn't work for me as I need to do more - and its not the GPU that makes the crash, its the fact that I'm doing more complex things that result in greater memory demands, more complex geometry, etc. Also, most tS crashes are not driver related either, sadly they are code related or memory related or similar.
Recommending not to get an external GPU only works for a particular subset of people, and for those who want to work in and navigate high poly scenes without slowdown, that would not be a good option. Similarly, for those who want to use the real-time render engine, it would also not be a good option (many onboard chipsets don't provide full DX9.0c support). For most people, an external GPU is highly recommended. At the end of the day there is no difference in them other than power, onboard chipsets tend to be significantly less powerful, but still work in the same way as an external card (so they don't avoid any problems by being in some way qualitatively different, they still need drivers to go through the HAL etc).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by splinters // Apr 15, 2009, 9:14am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I ran tS 7 on a 6000 chipset (not sure of the exact model) and it was absolutely awful. It ran on a dream even with a Radeon 9800 Pro (very old now), better on a 7900GT and amazingly on my current Geforce 9800GT which was £96 at launch and much cheaper now. Workspace needs such power especially in busy scenes but model side also benefits in solid DX mode.
The crashes with graphic cards are not well documented although driver issues have been discussed quite a bit...and I have been around here some time now... |
Post by TomG // Apr 15, 2009, 9:23am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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PS - you note yourself that the hardware you mention gives problems with updated drivers. Again this points to it being driver issues, and not anything inherently "evil" with non-onboard graphics solutions. Onboard or offboard, all can run into driver problems.
Of course to return to the original question here, we need to know if tS crashes in any scene, or in a particular scene. If the former, then it could be a driver issue. If the latter, its most likely a geometry issue. If its when a particular tool is used, then its that tool. Tracking down which of those is the case here is what is currently important :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 9:26am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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I NEVER said tS crashes from Driver issues ! The rest of your statement Tom is exactly the problem....it gets to a point where tS bogs down with too many computations on top of the bridges fighting each other.
I just added on to known issues with the Drivers as Jack was describing. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 9:36am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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TOM....I didn't open this Thread. I am not the one with the problems. I have learned, through much trial and error (and cussing) how to navigate around trueSpace's many downfalls. I have been extremmely patient, and have held back these problems for many months now...because I liked the program and didn't wish to openly share it's disappointments. |
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