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Looking for adivce on placing joints and weights
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Looking for adivce on placing joints and weights // New Users
Post by Jeison // Feb 5, 2009, 6:13am
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Jeison
Total Posts: 10
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Well im working on my character modeling and rigging.
i have modeled a basic body and rig ,I would apeciate some tips on on where to place joints and weight some of the difficult areas sutch as the hips ,sholders ,and abdomin. for posing.
For exapel when lifting the leg for a high kick the vertices between those that are attched to the thigh bone and the hip will begin to pull inti the joint rather than rotate around it.
I Greatly apreciate any tips others might have . |
Post by Norm // Feb 6, 2009, 6:08am
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Norm
Total Posts: 862
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Might be easier, although takes longer, to experiment with cylinders and bones. The bone envelope tool (same area as other bone tools) will allow you to adjust the bone's influence. Weight paint will also help to fine tune.
If you attempt to learn all this in a complex object/character, you will find it quite frustrating. Simplify your learning environment then tackle the character after you get a handle on how to use the tools. There are some characters already in library and once you know what tool does what task, you can review these existing characters and see how they were done. At that point it should make more sense to you how to approach the task.
Hope this helps :) |
Post by RichLevy // Feb 6, 2009, 7:49am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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"Don't listen to the heretic!" says the sole voice in the background ;) Slowly a small man works his way thru the stunned crowd. The silent hush of the crowd is disturbed by the muffled astonished gasps, whispers and mumblings of the crowd as the stranger slowly works his way thru the crowd up to the podium...
Working as Norm suggests is a good idea and has merit... but, and there always is a butt :) What is the purpose of your experiments? Do you wish to achieve a good foundation for the rigging and bones system and not character rigging and bones as per modeling and animation? Very big difference. Learning to model correct geometry is as important as the rigging and animation. If your intent is to do the whole process. Than learn to at least know what good edgeloops structure looks like.
This character is not a perfect example of what I am talking about, but he is reasonably clean and the edgeflow is not too bad for animating. The point, if you "really" want to learn the whole process of modeling, rigging and animation, spend the time to clean up the joint areas so that they behave better, having a bunch of polys in the areas is not often a good solution. It uses too much geometry, teaches you bad habits and is a hog for computer resources. I would try to add some transition geometry to a low poly mesh in the arms, legs, neck areas. If it is a human character all of the standard places where you have moveable joints on your body... they would be the location on your character.
When you get that down, than the process is easier as Norm suggests...
HTH
Rich |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 7, 2009, 1:44am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Then another guy pushes his way to the front of the crowd, Smiles at both his colleagues, and produces an inflatable megaphone from his coat pocket:p
The crowd hush with an expectant air.
Hi Jeison
Nice to see another interested character animator join the TS community,welcome to the fun!
The example you show has collapse of the top of the thigh as is expected. (and the expected loss of volume at the back of the thigh) Careful weight painting will go some way to balancing this out.
The best way to weight paint I find is move a joint to the extreme pose and weight paint until reasonable. then move to opposite joint rotation extreme and weight paint again. flipping between extremes frequently as you weight paint makes it easier to see the overall effect as you go. Weight painting is all about compromise, and rarely gets a perfect result but it will go a long way in the right direction.
A little tip I find useful on complicated meshes.... Use the hide selected polygons option to declutter the mesh areas around a joint you are trying to improve. Doing this allows you to actually weight paint from say the inside of a shoulder without the torso or the rest of the upper arm getting in the way. Just speeds things up and more pleasant to use. Since I discovered this techniique I now actually enjoy weight painting, before I found it a chore.
Generally placing extra bones can sometimes help, but when learning I suggest starting with a basic joint system and get the weight painting etc under your belt first.
After you have gained more familiarity with TS Rigging etc using vertex morphing is another possibilty to alter volume at different poses. A bit more advanced but worth learning once you get comfortable with the basics.
Combining both Norm and Rich's methods would get you up to speed quickly I reckon. Using basic tubes as test rigs, then study the effects of adding extra extra edge loops on how the joint deforms is useful. You will find that the positioning, the number and the spread of the edge loops can help immensely in giving realistic joint deformation. In turn this can be further refined with weighting etc. Once you have that down, transferring what you have learnt to more realistic, complicated meshes becomes fairly straight forward. It will always be a skill, not a follow ABC as rarely are too meshes the same, but practicing the basics will pay off handsomely long term.
I have a suspicion that in the long term TS users that are good at rigging etc will be sought after for any future collaborative character animation projects.
If you haven't already check out the free video tutorials that come with the TS pdf manual.
The crowd goes wild... Well ok maybe not :rolleyes:
IK |
Post by RichLevy // Feb 7, 2009, 2:46am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Maybe the question is, "which comes first?, the chicken, or the egg?"
Without good modeling the weight painting is pointless. Than again with good modeling edge flow, to achieve the best performance of the mesh you need to be weighted properly... I guess the best thing is to always experiment and play around. I spent a long time with rigging and modeling when I was first trying to learn to animate which was also during the period where I was first starting to learn about edgeflows... If you are a one man shop, and you are looking to learn the process, each piece is as important to the whole as the others, each compliments the other. (though, from a modeler's stand point (who also rigs and animates :D) the modeling is the key and foundation to a well rigged and animated character).
My 2 cents (again).
Rich |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 7, 2009, 2:54am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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As the applause subsides, a chicken with an egg under its wing struts to centre stage :p
100% agreed
1 cents worth (theres a recession)
IK |
Post by Jeison // Feb 7, 2009, 11:01am
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Jeison
Total Posts: 10
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Thank you all Rich and Norm make excelent points.
Though I hust say Igor response was colser to the type of responce I was looking for.
Norms suggestion of useing a cylander to practice did lead me to find out i had a habit of not letting a more than 1 bone have 100% infuance on a singel Vert.Useing 100%
effect to bothe bones did provide a smother bent up to a point.I miss that in the 4-6.6 verstions skeletons that verts were assined to joints as well as bones.
Igor thanks for the hide selected poly tip I had a problem that would have solved.But id like to ask has anyone ever moved a vert on the edge of there selection and have a split when the rest is un hiden.:jumpy: |
Post by RichLevy // Feb 7, 2009, 12:14pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Though I hust say Igor response was colser to the type of responce I was looking for.
Sure, like he didn't have a hero complex before :) only joking :D
If you go into the Panel tab in the stack, when you are painting you have the option to control the effect of the brush, basically the falloff of the weight painting. By letting the green fading into a gradient that part of the mesh will also be controlled by the neighboring bone.
I was gonna mention that before, you probably already know that though. 100% should only be in the areas of the mesh closer to the center of the bone...
Rich |
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