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My first head :s
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My first head :s // New Users
Post by 8-bit // Nov 11, 2008, 6:13am
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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Ive attempted my first human head but I'm a little disappointed at the results after applying 'Subdivision'. Can anyone give me some advice? How best to use subdivision etc and why my head result looks more like a troll from Lord of the Rings!?!
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/blazer-glory/ex.jpg |
Post by TomG // Nov 11, 2008, 6:26am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I recommend the Organics course, and the Character course.
SDS will "oversoften" and you need to add edge loops, eg around the mouth or eye sockets, which will let them keep their definition after being SDS'ed. The Organics course covers that very well.
http://www.caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts5/Courses/WorkspaceOrganicModeling1.asp?Cate=Training&Subcate=Fundamental
The Character Modeling course, although older and Model only, will also give good ideas on how to model a face and keep your geometry clean and flowing for good results
http://www.caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts5/Courses/NewCharacterModeling.asp?Cate=Training&SubCate=Older
Both courses (like all courses) are free. Do note that modeling a human face is perhaps the most complex thing to tackle, because we all instinctively know what looks right and what does not, down to the smallest details, given that we are born innately tuned to look for human faces and to respond to them and their expressions, so you are tackling what remains the "pinnacle" of drawing, painting, and 3D modeling :) If just setting out in 3D, I recommend tackling smaller, simpler subjects first, or at least not demanding too much from your first forays into face modeling - enjoy, take it easy, and have fun with it instead.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by 8-bit // Nov 11, 2008, 8:32am
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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Thanks Tom, I'll check them both out |
Post by 8-bit // Nov 12, 2008, 12:19pm
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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I took on board a few things you said and have made some improvements.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/blazer-glory/Example2-1.jpg |
Post by TomG // Nov 12, 2008, 1:48pm
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Nicely done! A big jump from the previous one! What are your plans for this now, or was this just for testing and learning and you will be putting this knowledge to use elsewhere? Certainly seems that this is good enough to continue on into some finished scene or image, but maybe that isn't what you have in mind :)
Tom |
Post by 8-bit // Nov 12, 2008, 1:56pm
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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Thanks for the compliments. I was simply experimenting but I would like to complete an entire human form although that may be a little ambitous for me at the mo'. :s |
Post by RichLevy // Nov 13, 2008, 12:56am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Nice progress from version 1 to version 2. Here are a couple of reference for topology. They will give you an idea of how to see modeling a face/head in a more traditional approach.
http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=26016
http://www.blendernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/clane5vs.jpg
By learning to use correct topology in the beginning you will not have to relearn later and correct for all of the bad habits you will pick up during the way. You will also get the advantage of having a face that can be animated cleanly.
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=95076
http://www.digitaltutors.com/chit_chat/showthread.php?t=9365
There are many other sources on the web, thankfully it is a subject that is covered well in all packages. As for the rest of the body, depending on the level of detail you plan to go into, you will find the other parts easier... except for the hands.
Good luck, sounds like you are enjoying the ride.
Rich |
Post by 8-bit // Nov 13, 2008, 3:48am
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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many thanks for the links. I always feel copying someone elses technique is a bit like cheating, bit odd I know, but any advice and pointers will be greatly appreciated :) |
Post by RichLevy // Nov 13, 2008, 8:43am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Than you are destined to take the long path...
These people and others have learned the same way, from each other and other artists before them. Look at how they work there geometry, you will find very few triangles and 0 ngons. The reason I pointed these to you was so that you would see that and copy those techniques. If you choose to do this on your own, why ask for help :).
Look at how the edge loops flow thru the face of the model, you will not find any that abruptly start or stop. Each one is there for a purpose and a reason. You will be able to hack together a model with geometry in any way you feel in TS, it is a reasonably forgiving package, but try to bring that same geometry to another package and you are likely to have trouble. Also consider what is going to happen in TS when you get to the point where you want to render out that you have, you are likely to find many artifacts in your rendering due to the geometry you have in your face.
Are you copying anothers work? Yes, and no. You are using technique that is teaching you to model as the masters. By learning to model correctly now, you will save yourself many countless hours of relearning the correct way...
Is this cheating? No, you are learning technique, you are learning to model, about edge flow and learning how to do thiese techniques in TS. If you do this on your own and thru your own without using the actual geometry it is not cheating, it is learning.
Take it for what you will.
Best of luck on your journey.
Rich |
Post by 8-bit // Nov 13, 2008, 9:54am
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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Thanks, good points and I understand what you say. :)
One point, what are ngons and artifacts??
One more thing. When starting the model. should I aim for the 'loops' at the start or can they be created later through point edit etc? |
Post by RichLevy // Nov 13, 2008, 11:19am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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tri's are three sided, quads are 4, anything with more than 4 sides is considered an n-gon, n being some number greater than 4, the gon part is derived from poly-gon :)
Artifacs happen when you try to render and the mesh when rendered comes up with pinching in the geometry or rendering faults (dark spots, color variations and such).
When you put a level of SDS on the mesh of your face, look how the mesh divided up? Some areas continue to have smooth looking geometry, others things look more chaotic. The geometry is not evenly distributed nor is it all quads (4 sided polygons) This is a sign of the underlaying geometry not being well laid out.
No how and when to put the edge loops in. Ideally you should try to get the edge flow working as soon as you can. I try to cut mine in right after getting the very basic block working. The sooner you start thinking in terms of topology and edge flow the better. It is hard the first few times but it becomes easier to do with each mesh you make. Study other peoples mesh's, check tutorials that pertain to the same type of modeling you are working with and study, practice, critique yourself constantly.
Ask questions of those that are posting work that you feel works, from there practice what they did, study, practice, and than critique some more... I've been doing character modeling for more than 4 years, I always watch what others are doing, I read tutorials, watch them whenever I can and study whenever I can...
I started much like you did, I started modeling heads and faces with little care to what I was doing with my edges, I made many dozens of models before it dawned on me that my models needed much work to animate, render well. Than I had to start studying others work, watch tutorials, and than critique my work with these new techniques in mind. Making a cool model is more than just placing edges wherever you think they should be. This is why you need to study anatomy, watch movement of animals, people and beasts :) study good topology from good modeler's and than keep practicing.
Lots of words in there aren't there :D Keep practicing, you have a decent shape to your head but learning to model correctly will only set you back a small amount of time now as opposed to relearning everything all over and forgetting all of the bad habits. I know, I choose to do it the hard way.
Rich |
Post by 8-bit // Nov 13, 2008, 11:30am
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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Thanks for all your help. I'll try and bare all that in mind and try and adjust the model I have and work on them in future models. Just when you think you have something mastered you realize their is far more to it! Ive always wondered how other peoples models always looked so perfect with nice clean lines, at least I know the 'loop' trick has something to do with it. Now its just a case of trying to achieve it. :) |
Post by RichLevy // Nov 13, 2008, 1:41pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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This tutorial is and oldie and goodie. It comprises of boxmodeling, it will work very nicely in TS either on the new side or the old. No fancy tools used.
http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials/benmathis/benmathis_head_1.asp
You will not see any fancy edge fool, but the geomentry will animate well, this guy does this for a living, making them good enough to animate in games is his business.
Sorry if I dissed your model, you are doing a good job all on your own, go thru a couple of tutorials like this one and you will be able to do more models on your own.
Enjoy the journey
Rich |
Post by 8-bit // Nov 13, 2008, 2:18pm
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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:) No need to apologize, I know where you were coming from and the point you was trying to make. Its all apreciated. :)
Thanks again |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 24, 2008, 11:23pm
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RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
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These are all my meshes I modeled they all started in TrueSpace & was exported to Lightwave,C4D.
I don't use Lightwave much any more.
Modeled / render in tS5
http://64.234.196.28/RK_3DArt/RK_Chrome_Portrait_01.htm
C4D Renders
http://64.234.196.28/RK_3DArt/3D_RK_Faces.htm
http://64.234.196.28/RK_3DArt/RorrKonn_Battle-Skull_600_2005.htm
Don't mater what app if ya using Catmull-Clark SubDivid system.
http://64.234.196.28/RK_3D_002.jpg
http://64.234.196.28/RK_3D_003.jpg
http://64.234.196.28/RK_3D_004.jpg
Nudity
did not model the hair in this render,but the character is mine
http://64.234.196.28/RK_Diamond_RB_C_008.jpg
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http://64.234.196.28/RK_Rigged_1.jpg
http://64.234.196.28/RK_Progress_Face_GS_GSL.jpg
his names Chrome, modeled with loops.
loops are basically a cube.
the flow of the mesh is called topology.
most points ,dots, vertices have 4 lines attached to it.
vertices with 3 lines attached to it is the same as a corner of a cube.
vertices with 3 lines , 5 lines attached to it is how you curve a cube.
for Catmull-Clark Subdivide system.
all your dots should only have 3,4,5 lines attached to it.
see his jaw dot with 3 lines attached.
see the dots with 5 lines attached.
pretty much all Catmull-Clark Subdivide system faces have the same 3,5 dots in the same places.
Catmull-Clark Subdivide system that turns tri's in to quads ya get
http://64.234.196.28/RK_Tutorial/RK_T_Mix_Sub-D_Tri-Quad.htm
So in these cases best to use quads.
Even if ya got a sub d system that sub d tri's it's easier, faster on a quad mesh with a few tri's.
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all polygones should be closed. no n gones with more the 5 dots
5 dot n gones should be limited.
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You can model characters using a sub divide system
good idea to learn how
but you do not half to use sub divide system.
you can just straight out model it.
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Ya do not learn to model a character over night.
Takes dedication.
But it's really nice to know your one of the few on this planet that can :)
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see how these two deferent meshes sorta follow the same topology
just follow this topology
http://64.234.196.28/RK_Progress_Face_GS_GSL.jpg
http://64.234.196.28/RK_Tutorial/RK_Sub_D_Quads.htm |
Post by 8-bit // Nov 25, 2008, 12:20am
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8-bit
Total Posts: 84
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Wow, thats some fantastic work there.
Not sure I'll ever reach that level but I can keep trying! :) |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 25, 2008, 10:43am
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RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
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I am 100% sure if you keep at it you will.
No mater if we started with characters, cars or just a chair.
We all started from a cube, going huh, what now.
The main thing is to learn to make good Topology.
As you learn, your learn rules to follow for Sub_D & Straight out.
It's a good idea to learn both ways to model.
There are pros and cons to both.
Since some Sub_D systems will not divide a Tri they have the rule model 100% quads.
Me personally I never could get how to model a character 100% quads.
I like my Tri's and I am not a fan of Sub_D that has the model quad rule.
I would rather just straight out model the mesh.
No mesh is perfect they all have flaws. |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 25, 2008, 2:52pm
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RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
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a good way to check ya topology is
if you painted the polygons red and black to look like a checker board,would it ?
so if it would look like a checker board then it is good topology :) |
Post by RichLevy // Nov 25, 2008, 5:11pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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a good way to check ya topology is
if you painted the polygons red and black to look like a checker board,would it ?
so if it would look like a checker board then it is good topology :)
Wha?
You are talking about organic modeling, right?
Rich |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 25, 2008, 9:57pm
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RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
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Ah not just characters my cars n all my meshes have a checker board topology.
About any mesh that is not a game mesh I model ends up having a checker board topology.
Load a sphere torus or a cube with a high enough poly count you can paint a checker board on them even. |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 25, 2008, 11:05pm
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RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
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Keep in mind checker board is only one style of modeling
it's a good style to learn especially if your going to Sub_D
After you ya get good at making a good neat mesh flow." checker board style modeling for example "
ya can get inventive with the topology. |
Post by RichLevy // Nov 26, 2008, 1:47am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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That was my point. You are suggesting a technique that is a solid modeling tool in an organic thread...
Rich |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 26, 2008, 2:20am
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RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
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http://64.234.196.28/RK_Progress_Face_GS_GSL.jpg
http://64.234.196.28/RK_Tutorial/RK_Sub_D_Quads.htm
There organic, still checker boarded.
Checker boarded is not just for mechanical objects. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Dec 10, 2008, 10:12am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Interesting RichLevy has brought up this point..
When you put a level of SDS on the mesh of your face, look how the mesh divided up? Some areas continue to have smooth looking geometry, others things look more chaotic. The geometry is not evenly distributed nor is it all quads (4 sided polygons) This is a sign of the underlaying geometry not being well laid out.
I have used, in fact still do use this, as a way to check how my topology is shaping up and to be able to quickly highlight future likely trouble spots. I usually slap on a couple of layers of SDS and then home straight in on the dodgy areas fairly early early on (having removed the SDS levels). Flicking between poly and SDS is simple and fast so personally I find this to be a nice quick way both to spot looming problems, but also after a bit you realise hmmm I've seen this poly layout before and it caused problems, so for me anyway its a shortcut to learning better topology, faster.
As already mentioned I also find placing a loop near an edge a nice controllable way to dictate the hardness of an edge. Try it on a poly cube and SDS a few times, you will see that the closer to the edge the loop is, the harder the SDS edge. (assuming you want to end up with a subd model of course).
Anyways HTH
(NB if I had a fraction of the talent and knowledge of some of the guys n gals in this forum I'd be a happy man)
IK |
Post by trueBlue // Dec 10, 2008, 10:33am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Nice tip IKH!
And...given the awesome capabilities in tS7.6 you can make your life/workflow easier. Added buttons to a cube for Adding/Subtracting SDS. Works in Model too. :D |
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