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New User Frustrations..
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
New User Frustrations.. // New Users
Post by xmanflash // Apr 3, 2006, 7:20pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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Hi Folks. Let me preclude this post by saying that I love Truespace for function vs money. I normally use 3D Studio Max for a client, and decided I could not afford to buy it for my own customer work and went with upgrading truespace to version 7 instead.
That was 3 days ago. I have been trying to model a cardboard box - product packaging if you will, using Truespace and spent well over 18 hours trying to get this simple task done.
Here are my notes from this rather angst filled session.
1. Dont try to use Truespace on a Parhelia video card. It wont work properly. I video edit in HDV and this card is brilliant for overlay out to a HD monitor with dual lcd screens, but the dx9 support is obviously woeful. dont try ts7.
2. I had in mind to import an eps file from photoshop as an outline that i had of the packaging, a sort of flattened cardboard box with 4 main and 4 end panels. None of the eps files would import. I got an error - init.psp is missing.
I found init.psp in my ts6.6 install and copied it across. it helped, but the only valid eps I could import was an eps generated by freehand. None of the illustrator or photoshop .ai or .eps files would import.
So on reading the forum i find that files are missing from the download version, that were on the CD version and that the upcoming 7.1 will fix that??
3. I decided to just use a Base Cube, stretch it out to the box size, bevel it a little and create the flaps from scratch. Ok, the box works.
I then tried to map an image onto the cube. I mapped a 32 bit rgb .BMP file with a fine Blue gradient onto the box. It renders with banding in the blue. I nearly give up thinking the renderer must be pretty poor.. Then I tried a .TIFF instead. That worked fine!
Then when I try to grab groups of points in the UV editor, TS crashes - every time on 2 different machines. So I used a JPG intead. It worked.
Except that the UV editor is a seriously maligned piece of interface. How on earth anybody does those fancy car maps is beyond me. It needs a Zoom function, and rulars to be useful imho. I am just trying to map 6 sides on a box and it is one of the most frustrating tasks I have ever performed on a computer, probably not helped by the image map being 2000 x 1500 large.
4. I try to draw the end pieces in that nurbs window, which is ok, except tht I cant get the nurbs object to map anything properly, It works if I flip it around 180 degrees, but otherwise the image shows half of itself - missing a huge triangle. I try to give it depth and that means I have no faces on the front and back.
5. I go to edit the texture on an object, and the only way I can get that happening is to select a new material, and use th dropper tool to select the object and then modify and replace the map. I just want to click/edit..
I have by this point bought the whole $199 special tutorials pack and downloaded most of them, so $600 spent so far.. and while they were interesting - they didnt solve any immediate problems although I had a bit of a chuckle in the realisting texture mapping section..
Now the good news. I got the job done. It is a bodge, but the client was happy and thats fine for me, except i had estimated 1 hour and thats what I am getting paid!
I have made these comments in the hope that an intial user experience can be improved in the future. The interface can be VERY confusing, to the point of just not working properly, and while I never give up on anything, i very nearly did here.
I have invested in TS and want it to work for me, so will put some more time into learngin it, but it seems to be more about quirks, than pure functionality.. and the tools are awkward in many respects. Why6 cant I move the UV map editor window anywhere I want?
Why does the animation window pop up behind the main window and never resurface until you do a ALT+TAB and realise its there?
And worst of all, why, when I shut down the truespace main window, and found the animation window was behind it, I shut that down, it asked me do I want to save, I said yes, and from that point on, the ONLY window that ever loaded was the animtion window. I reinstalled and that fixed it.
More elegantly I found that if I renamed the last file that was saved, the autoload didnt make the main window hide, because those instructions are obviously in the file itself, not TS, but it does look like I will never be able to use that file again..
I hope to utilise many of the new funtions that TS has in V7 and to become proficiant in it, but for such a simple job I was totally suprised to have had such a hard time.
And if any one has a quick technique for taking a flat eps file and a flat image and wrapping that up into a 3d box I would be ecstatic to hear about it.
It took me 3 days to get access to post on the forum due to the weekend I guess, otherwise I am sure it would have been easier with you folks helping! |
Post by Alien // Apr 4, 2006, 2:13am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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1. Dont try to use Truespace on a Parhelia video card. It wont work properly. I video edit in HDV and this card is brilliant for overlay out to a HD monitor with dual lcd screens, but the dx9 support is obviously woeful. dont try ts7.
I know very little about Matrox cards, but it sounds like whichever 1 you have [a quick search revealed there are apparently a number of different Parhelia cards] doesn't have hardware support for DirectX9. tS7 actually requires DX9.0c for all the eye candy in the player view, but you can use it with a card that only supports lower versions of DX if you don't mind not seeing the extra visual goodies. With my card [Radeon 9600 Pro - DX9.0, not 9.0c :( ] I don't get all the eye candy, but I don't have any major probs either.
So on reading the forum i find that files are missing from the download version, that were on the CD version and that the upcoming 7.1 will fix that??
Actually, it's the other way round, although the CD version [7.01] had some fixes that aren't in the original download version [7.0], the CD version is missing the contents of 1 particular folder [I forget which 1 off the top off my head, something to do with a widget library or something]. If you have both versions the best thing to do is install the download version 1st, then install the CD version over it. This of course should be solved with the release of 7.1.
And worst of all, why, when I shut down the truespace main window, and found the animation window was behind it, I shut that down, it asked me do I want to save, I said yes, and from that point on, the ONLY window that ever loaded was the animtion window. I reinstalled and that fixed it.
Have a read of this (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/faq.php?faq=splashfreeze#faq_shutdown_ts7).
More elegantly I found that if I renamed the last file that was saved, the autoload didnt make the main window hide, because those instructions are obviously in the file itself, not TS, but it does look like I will never be able to use that file again..
If the autoload thing gets on your nerves, try clicking the newscene button before you close tS7.
Hope this sheds a bit of light on your probs, sorry I couldn't help with the rest. |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 4, 2006, 3:23am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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Thanks for the comments.. I spent this evening working out lighting and am getting some rather nice results so am much happier..
It doesnt help that the ($199 special offer) Tutorials package set I am watching seems to point to older versions of Truespace (5 and 6) and therefore not help much with the finding of the icon trick that must be performed for a lot of functions.. BUT - they are proving useful and I am getting more comfortable with the functionality now.. It still seems really awkward, but time will tell.
The matrox card I have is a PCIe APVe card, which has great hardware overlay in HD resolution for Video editing, but zero,zip,nada 3D grunt at all, so I am at a loss as to how to run truespace on that machine, In the new DX mode, all the objects appear as white! and the app itself runs dog slow, even though its a dual core Athlon 64 4400, so I am currently using an old Pentium 4 2.8HT with an ATI Radeon9800 which seems to work quite well.. but my better rig would smoke it.. I wonder if I can run a PCI graphics card in there as well? |
Post by Alien // Apr 4, 2006, 4:24am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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The matrox card I have is a PCIe APVe card, which has great hardware overlay in HD resolution for Video editing, but zero,zip,nada 3D grunt at all, so I am at a loss as to how to run truespace on that machine, In the new DX mode, all the objects appear as white! and the app itself runs dog slow, even though its a dual core Athlon 64 4400, so I am currently using an old Pentium 4 2.8HT with an ATI Radeon9800 which seems to work quite well.. but my better rig would smoke it.. I wonder if I can run a PCI graphics card in there as well?
As I said previously, I'm not really up on Matrox cards, but I do seem to remember them never having much grunt where 3D is concerned, certainly not when compared to ATI or Nvidia powered cards.
I know Matrox used to make good cards, but there hasn't been a good reason to buy Matrox instead of ATI [or even Nvidia - I prefer ATI] in a long time. Well, having just had a quick read of a review of it, it would seem that it's aimed at people only really doing 2D or video editing. I looked on Matrox's site & they don't even mention what version of DirectX it supports. TBH, I see something like that [a company saying it supports DirectX, but not which version], & it makes me think that maybe they have something to hide.
On a whim I looked up the Parhelia AVPe on a UK hardware site I sometimes buy from.
From 1 user's comment it would seem it only supports DX8.1 & OGL 1.3!!!
All I can say is you have my sympathy. I don't know what country you live in, but here in the UK you could get a Radeon X1600 for 1/2 what your Parhelia goes for.
I'm shocked that a PCI-E card isn't even DX9 complient. From what I can tell (http://www.rojakpot.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=88&pgno=0) there's only been 1 ATI PCI-E card that wasn't DX9 complient [9200se - not exactly top of the range card, more like bargain basement]. Why Matrox are still making PCI-E cards that aren't DX9 complient is anybody's guess. :confused: From the sounds of it even my AGP Radeon 9600 would wipe the floor with your Parhelia. |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 4, 2006, 5:05pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I live in Sydney Australia - but grew up in Cornwall UK.. - love em both..
Yep - the Matrox card is not good for this kind of work, 8.1 support would make sense, but I even set the preferences back to DX7 in TS7 and it didnt seeem to make any difference..
Having said that I think Matrox is wringing as much as thy can out of an old design - a shame, but then, that card gives me a true HD video editing output (1440x1280 - I use Canopus Edius and have an HDV camera so can edit 3 layers of high def video in real time) and without that Parnhelia card, I would have had to buy specialist hardware about 3/4 times the price (And I also got a good price on it :-)
So I'm not miffed about the Matrox card - it does what I paid it to do well, I am just suprised that TS7 is *so* sluggish on it in the Model window, and that when I switch to Shading Quality ( in the player window) of DX7 Basic, the objects still show as white.. TS6.6 worked well on it..
Anyhows.. Check this out, a carboard box (6 sides) with 2 end flaps, 2 light sources, one spotlight and one IBL at 16 resolution and 1.0 fuzzyness rendered to a multipart .PSD with all things on and set to channels at 4000x3000 pixels, was still rendering after 4 hours last night! - I had to give up ! Maybe I pushed it a bit :-)
..Still learning TS and enjoying it more and more.
Am also still going through the tutorials and really enjoyed the Spirit session (I assume by Roman).. picked up a lot from that.. and maybe thats where I went wrong at the beginning, I usually work my way through new software really quickly.. I would never pay the full value for the tutorials though - the quality of audio and the screengrabber missing bits and pieces is pretty disappointing - other complete training systems are generally much cheaper. Still I only paid $199 so I cant complain - at that price its worth it if you are like me a complete TS newbie..
If there isnt something already I think there should be a quick overview of how to best get to productive output with TS7 quickly somewhere, it will help a lot of people.. |
Post by Alien // Apr 5, 2006, 1:42pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Yep - the Matrox card is not good for this kind of work, 8.1 support would make sense, but I even set the preferences back to DX7 in TS7 and it didnt seeem to make any difference..
Strangely enough they actually list it as suitable for Lightwave. <shrug> Go figure. :confused:
Having said that I think Matrox is wringing as much as thy can out of an old design - a shame, but then, that card gives me a true HD video editing output (1440x1280 - I use Canopus Edius and have an HDV camera so can edit 3 layers of high def video in real time) and without that Parnhelia card, I would have had to buy specialist hardware about 3/4 times the price (And I also got a good price on it :-)
I could have sworn ATI & Nvidia did cards with HD output, maybe Matrox has something extra up its sleeve?
So I'm not miffed about the Matrox card - it does what I paid it to do well, I am just suprised that TS7 is *so* sluggish on it in the Model window, and that when I switch to Shading Quality ( in the player window) of DX7 Basic, the objects still show as white.. TS6.6 worked well on it..
That is rather weird. :confused:
Anyhows.. Check this out, a carboard box (6 sides) with 2 end flaps, 2 light sources, one spotlight and one IBL at 16 resolution and 1.0 fuzzyness rendered to a multipart .PSD with all things on and set to channels at 4000x3000 pixels, was still rendering after 4 hours last night! - I had to give up ! Maybe I pushed it a bit :-)
I've not got round to trying IBL, so I have no idea what effect that has on render times. 4 hours does seem a bit long though. Having said that, I just found this in the manual:
Note: Image Based Lights are computationally expensive and can take a long time to render, especially when shadowing is enabled. There are controls to reduce the complexity and accuracy of the lighting, allowing a tradeoff between precision/quality and speed.
That might explain the increased time, especially given the size of the image you were trying to render. |
Post by e-graffiti // Apr 8, 2006, 12:55am
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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xmanflash, with so much discussion about your cardboard box I would love to see it! Can you post it in the WIP or Image Gallery area? :jumpy: |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 9, 2006, 4:28am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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xmanflash, with so much discussion about your cardboard box I would love to see it! Can you post it in the WIP or Image Gallery area? :jumpy:
Here it is! - dont expect too much!
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=6701#post6701
I have to keep the real texture under wraps - its for a client pre-vis for a bid, but the reason for all this feedback is the antique fire-engine I want to build next... If a cardboard box had me shtumphed for so long, then I dont hold too much hope for modelling the fire engine in TS..
The more user comments I read the more I realise that TS7 is the start of a transition of the interface and its not done yet. For $400 US upgrade from 6.6 I am pretty unhappy about that. Heres hoping 7.1 is free.. |
Post by splinters // Apr 9, 2006, 4:38am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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7.1 is free upgrade due any moment..there are quite a new features you will like. Eventually, all the major tools should migrate over to the player side which is very powerful.
The character animation stuff is now to be in 7.5 due later in the year...:D
If you pre-ordered during the first promotion or are a proteam member when it is released, you should get it free |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 9, 2006, 4:56am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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7.1 is free upgrade due any moment..there are quite a new features you will like. Eventually, all the major tools should migrate over to the player side which is very powerful.
The character animation stuff is now to be in 7.5 due later in the year...:D
If you pre-ordered during the first promotion or are a proteam member when it is released, you should get it free
Hi Splinters..
I didnt pre-order, and whats a pro-team member? - anyhow I get the feeling it will be a paid update. Glad 7.1 is free though - hope it fixes up some of my niggles.
What would be the easiest way of modelling my box, if i had a texture map that was exactly the right shape of the unwrapped model, and an eps file that contained the outline of the box-cut ??
Oh - and how do I make everything undo-able? |
Post by KeithC // Apr 10, 2006, 7:21am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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I'm not sure if anyone's suggested using a reference map to ensure proper sizing/display of your texture map? Is that what you mean? If you right-click on the undo icon, it will bring up a small menu for it. The undo in the modeler side is incomplete, but I'm told the one in the player side is better (not that it will matter until the two are combined).
-Keith |
Post by Alien // Apr 11, 2006, 7:10pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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and whats a pro-team member?
You'd think Caligari would make it easier to find, wouldn't you? [I had to use Google to find it] Here's (http://www.caligari.com/Store/trueSpace/profeatures.asp?Cate=STproTeam) the page for proTeam, & the proTeam FAQ can be found here (http://www.caligari.com/Store/trueSpace/FAQ.asp?Cate=STproTeam).
What would be the easiest way of modelling my box, if i had a texture map that was exactly the right shape of the unwrapped model, and an eps file that contained the outline of the box-cut ??
Not really sure if this will help, but I made a box with a couple of openings for an an abandoned [for the moment] project.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/pepsibox001.jpg
I realise it's a different shape/style to yours, but I was initially faced with similar problems to the ones you described. In my case I was lucky & was only recreating an existing box, not trying to create a new 1 from scratch.
With mine, I made a simple box, then boolean'd out the inside with a slightly smaller box painted with the cardboard texture. Then I used paint face tool to put the textures on each side. Where'd I get the textures from, you may ask? I bought the original, then put each side on my scanner. :) The top, as you can see, has those 2 cutouts. Prior to scanning, I stuck a couple of large post-its underneath the openings, so as to make a cleaner edge to the image of the hole when scanned [instead of getting some weird reflection off the cans].
Once I'd painted the textures on to the box, I used the draw polygon tool to trace the outline of the cutouts, then swept it & used the resulting shapes to boolean subtract the holes. The cans inside are actual models of cans, but with just a blue chrome texture on the side & a scan of the top of the can on the top of the can [wrapped a black t-shirt around the can when scanning its top to avoid getting anything other than the top].
I couldn't figure out how to get the texture for the body of the cans. I did try cutting a couple of cans up, but even when narrow the pieces were still curved & wouldn't flatten without damaging the texture. I reckon I could have put the pieces together ok in Paint Shop Pro if I'd gotten them flat, but I just couldn't manage it.
Don't know if any of that helps, hope it does. |
Post by hultek43 // Apr 12, 2006, 3:40am
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hultek43
Total Posts: 234
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Pretty nifty Alien, but I believe the orientation of the cans in the carton is wrong? |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 12, 2006, 4:18am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I'm not sure if anyone's suggested using a reference map to ensure proper sizing/display of your texture map? Is that what you mean? If you right-click on the undo icon, it will bring up a small menu for it. The undo in the modeler side is incomplete, but I'm told the one in the player side is better (not that it will matter until the two are combined).
-Keith
Hi Keith, I dont seem to be able to get anything to popup up on the left mouse click on the undo icon..?? |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 12, 2006, 4:29am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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You'd think Caligari would make it easier to find, wouldn't you? [I had to use Google to find it] Here's (http://www.caligari.com/Store/trueSpace/profeatures.asp?Cate=STproTeam) the page for proTeam, & the proTeam FAQ can be found here (http://www.caligari.com/Store/trueSpace/FAQ.asp?Cate=STproTeam).
Not really sure if this will help, but I made a box with a couple of openings for an an abandoned [for the moment] project.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/pepsibox001.jpg
I realise it's a different shape/style to yours, but I was initially faced with similar problems to the ones you described. In my case I was lucky & was only recreating an existing box, not trying to create a new 1 from scratch.
With mine, I made a simple box, then boolean'd out the inside with a slightly smaller box painted with the cardboard texture. Then I used paint face tool to put the textures on each side. Where'd I get the textures from, you may ask? I bought the original, then put each side on my scanner. :) The top, as you can see, has those 2 cutouts. Prior to scanning, I stuck a couple of large post-its underneath the openings, so as to make a cleaner edge to the image of the hole when scanned [instead of getting some weird reflection off the cans].
Once I'd painted the textures on to the box, I used the draw polygon tool to trace the outline of the cutouts, then swept it & used the resulting shapes to boolean subtract the holes. The cans inside are actual models of cans, but with just a blue chrome texture on the side & a scan of the top of the can on the top of the can [wrapped a black t-shirt around the can when scanning its top to avoid getting anything other than the top].
I couldn't figure out how to get the texture for the body of the cans. I did try cutting a couple of cans up, but even when narrow the pieces were still curved & wouldn't flatten without damaging the texture. I reckon I could have put the pieces together ok in Paint Shop Pro if I'd gotten them flat, but I just couldn't manage it.
Don't know if any of that helps, hope it does.
HI Alien - thats a great help - thanks.. Of course the main problem is finding a lot of the tools, but I am starting to pick it up now.. with the icon helper of course!
Re the cans - use a hacksaw to take off each end - including the bevelled top and bottom part of the can, and then glue the result onto card or wood perhaps? - then scan it.. - it would get you most of the can texture..
Did you create seperate ends that overlap? and when you say Paint on the sides, I was just UV mapping the planes, however anythign I unwrapped that was more complex than a cube became a horrible complex wireframe over the image - triangles joining up wrongly etc - I could not work with it, so did what you suggested, made a cube, UV mapped it, then stretched it to teh correct rectangle size, then hollowed it, cut out the tissue opening for the next version where the tissue comes out the top of the box (nurbs tutorial coming up i think!)
But I was hoping to be able to import a vector shape, an unwrapped version of the box with overlapping ends etc,.. UV map it, and then bend some of the edges at 90 degrees to actually create the real box as in real life. That would be perfect but it has eluded me so far..
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An example - How would bend the right side towards me at 90 degrees?
so it became
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Thanks for all your help folks.. :) |
Post by Alien // Apr 12, 2006, 6:17am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Pretty nifty Alien, but I believe the orientation of the cans in the carton is wrong?
Nope, that's how they were - 6 on the bottom, a piece of cardboard as a seperator, then 6 on top.
Re the cans - use a hacksaw to take off each end - including the bevelled top and bottom part of the can, and then glue the result onto card or wood perhaps? - then scan it.. - it would get you most of the can texture..
Actually, I just had a look at the images I scanned, & it would seem I have most/all of it for the body of the can [it's been a while, I forgot]. Also, my 2D image editing skills have improved a bit since then, so I might find it easier piecing it together, I'll have a go at it later.
Curse this forum, & it's encouraging ways! How's a guy ever supposed to procrastinate with you lot around? :p :D
Did you create seperate ends that overlap? and when you say Paint on the sides, I was just UV mapping the planes, however anythign I unwrapped that was more complex than a cube became a horrible complex wireframe over the image - triangles joining up wrongly etc - I could not work with it, so did what you suggested, made a cube, UV mapped it, then stretched it to teh correct rectangle size, then hollowed it, cut out the tissue opening for the next version where the tissue comes out the top of the box (nurbs tutorial coming up i think!)
Painting the sides? easy - paint face tool. :) Much quicker/easier than UV mapping when you're only doing a box.
But I was hoping to be able to import a vector shape, an unwrapped version of the box with overlapping ends etc,.. UV map it, and then bend some of the edges at 90 degrees to actually create the real box as in real life. That would be perfect but it has eluded me so far..
Me too - that's actually what I wanted to do with my box when I started it [nearly a year ago!], but in the end I couldn't figure it out & gave in & just scanned it.
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An example - How would bend the right side towards me at 90 degrees?
so it became
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No idea, if you find out let me know. :) |
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