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August MMC Challenge - space. "LOST IN (true)SPACE"
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August MMC Challenge - space. "LOST IN (true)SPACE" // Monthly Modeling Contest
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 3, 2007, 2:23am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Howdy y'all
I'd decided that I'd stop posting so much to the WIP thread to leave room for others but Jack's monthly challenge was too good a chance to pass by.
You've all seen 'space art' by me before so this time I'm aiming for something a little different. Rather than use my trusty and much-loved LightWorks renderer I'm going to try to build something using the realtime DX shaders - and what better way to learn sdomething about them (and of course the infamous and dreaded LE!).
I'm actually aiming to build an entire 3d scene rather than my usual 2d picture - something you can all walk around inside and change around for yourselves.
This is a big challenge as I know almost nothing about Link Editors and 3d scene creation. I'm sufficiently familiar with the LW material editor and know exactly how to get the results I want from it but the realtime shaders are a whole new thing! So anyone with anything helpful or constructive to say please do so!
So far I have been working backwards to a certain degree - I started by swiping the default RsScn file that comes with truePlay and I've deconstructed it and then started to reconstruct it. Thus you will recognize the dome from that scene but very little if anything else.
Here's some piccy's to show how work is progressing. The first is a lo-res version of my skydome texture. This was made using the model side - a sphere with stars, several alphaplanes with nebula-type textures made in the GIMP, a few random asteroids and an old ringed planet I had already made for the CGsphere.com website. I just added some extra textural details.
Once I had the space furniture positioned around the scene I created a camera and copied it another 5 times, pointing each cam at the 6 cardinal directions. Using LW renderer I rendered out a square 1200x1200 image from each camera and loaded the resulting images into the excellent Projection 100 app which converted the six square pics into one big 4800x2400 spherical projection image. The first pic below is a reduced version of this pic.
The second pic is a unresized 800x600 section of the sky sphere pic.
The 3rd pic is a realtime render showing the start of my spaceStation object and the sky sphere texture mapped onto a ... er... sphere!
I've got a long way to go - I want to build a model that's worth walking around in and I need to learn enough about realtime shaders and lighting to get a result I'm happy with. I'm intending to post the whole scene as my entry into the challenge so you'll all be able to access it and see how I've built it and so on. If you want some input into the end result, this is the thread to post to.
A final plea - anyone with experience of the DX9 shaders who can (excuse the pun) shed some light on textureing and lighting realtime scenes, your pointers will be gratefully received! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 3, 2007, 9:35am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Wow! And I thought my project was ambitious :D
Lookin' cool Wiz!
BTW, Parva's the guy you need to ask about the DX shaders. ;)
-Jack. |
Post by frootee // Aug 3, 2007, 9:56am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Pretty detailed Wizard! You know, this sounds almost like a good fit for a different kind of challenge, one for trueplay!
I've always wanted to be able to cruise through the solar system, either by computer (like this), or for real! Okay, maybe not for real
because high speed and weightlesness totally freak me out.
Froo |
Post by jayr // Aug 3, 2007, 10:17am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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You know, this sounds almost like a good fit for a different kind of challenge, one for trueplay!
Thats not a bad idea, having a trueplay space comp.
Great idea Wizard, how big are you making the space station? are you going to be able to move around inside that or just the outside space? |
Post by frootee // Aug 3, 2007, 10:26am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Oh yeah jayr. I know there are some other folks here who are just itching to make this type stuff.
Froo |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 4, 2007, 10:48am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Wow! And I thought my project was ambitious :D
Lookin' cool Wiz!
BTW, Parva's the guy you need to ask about the DX shaders. ;)
-Jack.
Thanks Jack - In the spirit of 'to bravely go where no-one has gone before' I've been learning heaps about about realtime rendering and DX shaders and enjoying the feeling that trueSpace offers so much - with the workspace and the model side it's effectively two different apps for the price of one.
@Froo - Yeah! A truePlace comp might be just the go for stimulating more interset and activity in truePlay.
Re: "I've always wanted to be able to cruise through the solar system, either by computer (like this), or for real!" - I'm so with you there! Have you checked out Celestia (http://www.shatters.net/celestia/index.html)? This is a superb program (and it's free!) for doing some intersteller travelling - it totally rocks and I can't recomend it highly enough. (It's also a good source for planetary textures and spaceship models).
@Jayr - "Great idea Wizard, how big are you making the space station? are you going to be able to move around inside that or just the outside space?" - Um, dunno yet. The intention is definitely to enable moving around inside the space station - but I'm also very aware of having to limit polycounts and texture sizes to make this scene practical for the net. This is a good exercise for me to learn to be economical with file sizes.
There are also practical limitations to consider. Originally I had hoped to be able to have the skydome and sun light slowly rotate to give the appearance that the space station as rotating - this has forced me to learn stuff about animating, as well as the realtime lighting/shadowing etc. I've had some success on this score but even with my medium-powerful PC the computations required meant that the skydome was sort of staggering rather than rotating smoothly. So I've canned the idea of a revolving sky. I'm currently building an asteroid instead - my space station is going to be built on an asteroid I think - again a lot depends on how detailed I can make things before creating unacceptable file sizes and a scene that's too complex for an average PC to handle smoothly.
It's quite possible that my ambitions here are bigger than what I can feasibly create - I may even eventually resort to a standard LW render for this MMC. But I do hope though that my efforts with a spacey 3d space will inspire and assist others to try their hands at trueSpace-truePlay-space exploration.
To Infinity and Beyond!! |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 4, 2007, 8:55pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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There are also practical limitations to consider. Originally I had hoped to be able to have the skydome and sun light slowly rotate to give the appearance that the space station as rotating - this has forced me to learn stuff about animating, as well as the realtime lighting/shadowing etc. I've had some success on this score but even with my medium-powerful PC the computations required meant that the skydome was sort of staggering rather than rotating smoothly. So I've canned the idea of a revolving sky. I'm currently building an asteroid instead - my space station is going to be built on an asteroid I think - again a lot depends on how detailed I can make things before creating unacceptable file sizes and a scene that's too complex for an average PC to handle smoothly.
In SteveBe's "Torus Knot" thread in the Finished Artwork gallery area of the foum here Steve created a beautiful method for smoothly animating textures and also provided a downloadable example there and instructions. When you examine it in the LE it is quite elegant and powerful, and it may just solve the issue for you of smooth rotation for your realtime skydome background, ie: animating the texture as opposed to the dome itself.
I was just using the new truePlay1.3 to revisit some of the scenes Caligari placed in the "ts/main rs libraries/scenes/active/" folder and maybe it's just me, but I could swear that the graphics rendering in truePlay1.3 is significantly better than that of it's predecessor. Anyway, I was checking out the Dance Hall scene again and wow.... the simultaneous wild animations and animated lights are really amazing effects... especially when you actually go into the scene in FPN yourself!
I suspect that since there are a couple of great animations and animated lighting effects which already work great in truePlay (ie: The Dance Hall, Norm's Clock, Roman's House) that there must be an efficient way to enable you to animate your scene background without the motion becoming unduly noticeable. When I see all those simultaneous animated objects and lights in the Dance Hall scene in truePlay1.3 on my ~very slow~ computer they still run seamlessly even for me, so there just has to be a workaround for you to simulate that rotational space background, and I'll bet SteveBe's solution may just do the trick for this.
It's quite possible that my ambitions here are bigger than what I can feasibly create - I may even eventually resort to a standard LW render for this MMC. But I do hope though that my efforts with a spacey 3d space will inspire and assist others to try their hands at trueSpace-truePlay-space exploration.
To Infinity and Beyond!!
They are inspiring folk already here, I can say that with certainty 'cause I'm one of them.:D
Hang in there W!ZARD.... your sheer determination will win out in the end!:)
By the way.... a month or two back I made a fairly elaborate tunnel scene using distorted circles "swept" along irregular and intersecting long winding and curving paths, then I used that "spaghetti-looking" object as a cutter in a boolean subtraction from a large but low-height rectangular solid. The resulting rectangular solid with numerous carved and winding pathways throughout it was then placed ~almost~ above ground-level in trueSpace Workplace, a DX9 texture thrown on it, a water textured plane added to the ground level and I jumped into the scene in FPN and scaled the whole deal until the openings in the exterior of the solid were Avatar-sized.
Walking around in there is absolutely fascinating and feels like a genuine excursion into an alien tunnel with the floor, ceiling, and walls winding all around you as you go, and each new intersecting path opening discovered along the way is inviting when you come across it.
This might be a great method to employ for your asteroid too.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 6, 2007, 6:06pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Cheers Dude.
I did consider animating the texture only but I also need ther 'sun' to rotate smoothly with the texture. I specifically wanted nice accurate shadows too - the idea of them slowly moving as the sky turned was one way of creating a 'wow' factor.
I've DLed truePlay 1.3 but have yet to install - my partner and I have decided to move house and so I've been away from my PC attending to those irritating 'real' world issues.
You've been reading my mind again! I've built some elaborate tunnels and so on and boleanned them into (or out of) my asteroid. I've yet to try it out for FPN though. I'll let you know how it all comes to together.
TTFN
WZRD |
Post by Délé // Aug 6, 2007, 6:13pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Off to a good start there Wiz! :D Don't worry, you'll be buzzing around the LE like a pro in no time. This is a good way to familiarize yourself with it. I look forward to walking around one of your always imaginative scenes. :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 6, 2007, 6:46pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks Délé - that means a lot coming from you! |
Post by Dragneye // Aug 6, 2007, 9:59pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Nice work Wiz. I'm dyin' to see what your wizardly eye comes up with in the end. You do great work bud. Keep it comin'. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 8, 2007, 1:45am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Cheers Dude.
I did consider animating the texture only but I also need ther 'sun' to rotate smoothly with the texture. I specifically wanted nice accurate shadows too - the idea of them slowly moving as the sky turned was one way of creating a 'wow' factor.
WZRD
I was just examining some of the older "gems" here in the forums as I love to do for inspiration, and I spotted a fantastic script created by Délé which may be easily applied to your "sun" (or objects around it) to actually create an orbital aspect to the scene... thus enabling the "wow" factor as you said, which I agree wholeheartedly would indeed be an awesome effect.
Here's the thread for when you get a chance to look into it:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=3991#post3991
Great idea, and I'd love to see it happen for you.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 9, 2007, 12:17am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hey thanks Dude. At the moment I'm having a serious rethink about my project - as well as feeling a little burnt out over the whole thing! At the moment my scene is already up to 17.5 megs which slightly exceeds the 5 or 6 megs suggested as a limit! So I'm thinking I'll need to rethink it a little. Additionally some of the spiral staricases I made are a little dodgy to navigate in FPN mode.
So thats the not so good news - the good news is that I've learned a huge amount about the realtime shaders and the dreaded LE - which is considerably less dreaded than it was!
I'm presently harbouring some reservations about the realtime lights - near clipping plane? Far clipping plane? What's that all about? Hardly the intuitive and artistic trueSpace design philosophy we all grew up with (so to speak). I'm not a programmer by any means but it would seem to me that the program should be looking after those sorts of settings for the realtime shadows. I mean, isn't the program already calculating where the light source is and where ther geometry it's shining on is? If so why can't it figure out all this near clipping/far clipping plane stuff for itself? As an artist all I want is to be able to point the light, set the drop off distance (preferably with a visual cue as we have in earlier tS incarnations) and a slider/numerical to set the overall shadow detail level.
While I'm here I'm also wondering about the attenution settings for the lights - I'm used to it now but it took some getting accustomed to - the smaller the number the brighter the light and the further it travels? Given that we're all accustomed to thinking in terms of light intensity rather than light attenuation this seems a little clumsy to me. Which is probably because I'd like to see tS keep many of it's UI conventions - (well the better ones anyway) - as well as continue to introduce the brilliant new UI tricks - (eg double click the title bar to max the window - brilliant, icon tool lists flying out when moused over - superb!
What baffles me most is the save on shutdown pop up boxes - open a new scene in a model window and you are asked if you want to save any changes. So you click yes to save or no to discard. Click on open new scene in workspace and yopu click yes to discard.....
I wonder if this is a deliberate policy choice - perhaps to differentiate between the old and the new tS versions or if it was one of those small things that got overlooked.
Any hoo.... as I said I think I'll be redoing a lot of my work so far, and I've still got to get my head around these lights (I am really unhappy with the omnis - they don't cast shadows!). I won't be doing anything today though as my health is a little dodgy today. In fact I'm off to my bed now.
See ya later |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 9, 2007, 1:41am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Hey thanks Dude. At the moment I'm having a serious rethink about my project - as well as feeling a little burnt out over the whole thing! At the moment my scene is already up to 17.5 megs which slightly exceeds the 5 or 6 megs suggested as a limit! So I'm thinking I'll need to rethink it a little. Additionally some of the spiral staricases I made are a little dodgy to navigate in FPN mode.
Well, first off this is an entirely valiant effort you're making here in my book, so given the difficulty of blazing such new trails within the prevailing fog I completely relate to the need to pace oneself accordingly.
The 17.5 megs is really only an issue if the scene is intended for online multi-user applications, if your intention is to have the scene explored via truePlay1.3 on a hard drive or CD that shouldn't present a problem, assuming those navigating it have relatively good hardware.
The 5-6 meg limit I had suggested earlier was really intended only as a target limit for online scenes, as for offline scenes they can still be a great deal of fun to navigate and interact with, and in that case can be fairly huge.
Regarding the spiral staircases, I had that issue myself in immersive scene design twice, once where the step height required me to redesign the stairs (although Avatar stepping height can be adjusted in the LE) entirely, and the other time I solved it by placing a railing around the staircase and eliminating the steps completely, using a spiral ramp as a solution instead, which was much more Avatar friendly in the end. Another option might be to create a cylinder with 100 percent transparency around the stairway as a collision barrier and cult entrance and exit holes for the Avatar via boolean subtraction.... similar in a way to that "anti-skydiving solution" for the airship we discussed earlier.
So thats the not so good news - the good news is that I've learned a huge amount about the realtime shaders and the dreaded LE - which is considerably less dreaded than it was!
I'm presently harbouring some reservations about the realtime lights - near clipping plane? Far clipping plane? What's that all about? Hardly the intuitive and artistic trueSpace design philosophy we all grew up with (so to speak). I'm not a programmer by any means but it would seem to me that the program should be looking after those sorts of settings for the realtime shadows. I mean, isn't the program already calculating where the light source is and where ther geometry it's shining on is? If so why can't it figure out all this near clipping/far clipping plane stuff for itself? As an artist all I want is to be able to point the light, set the drop off distance (preferably with a visual cue as we have in earlier tS incarnations) and a slider/numerical to set the overall shadow detail level.
While I'm here I'm also wondering about the attenution settings for the lights - I'm used to it now but it took some getting accustomed to - the smaller the number the brighter the light and the further it travels? Given that we're all accustomed to thinking in terms of light intensity rather than light attenuation this seems a little clumsy to me. Which is probably because I'd like to see tS keep many of it's UI conventions - (well the better ones anyway) - as well as continue to introduce the brilliant new UI tricks - (eg double click the title bar to max the window - brilliant, icon tool lists flying out when moused over - superb!
What baffles me most is the save on shutdown pop up boxes - open a new scene in a model window and you are asked if you want to save any changes. So you click yes to save or no to discard. Click on open new scene in workspace and yopu click yes to discard.....
I wonder if this is a deliberate policy choice - perhaps to differentiate between the old and the new tS versions or if it was one of those small things that got overlooked.
Any hoo.... as I said I think I'll be redoing a lot of my work so far, and I've still got to get my head around these lights (I am really unhappy with the omnis - they don't cast shadows!). I won't be doing anything today though as my health is a little dodgy today. In fact I'm off to my bed now.
See ya later
I'm not very good yet with lights in 7.51 at all, so unfortunately I'm no help on that score. Hopefully one of our more talented guys in that regard will help you here with that.
Get some rest my friend, that's when the best dreams come.;)
You're doing well as an inspiration for many here with your pioneering efforts in this project, but your health and renewal must remain priorities.
See you on the other side,
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by Michael Billard // Aug 9, 2007, 6:14am
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Michael Billard
Total Posts: 125
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Nice work! I see I have a lot to learn (though I'm slightly faster with making models now) Is the MMC challenge something going on here at the Caligari site? |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 13, 2007, 1:05am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I've been away from my pooter for a few days - soon to be moving house and we've been here for the past 5 years and accumulated an astonishing amount of stuff. We've been sourcing boxes for packing, I got the old Mitsubishi 4x4 running again for the first time in over a year, we've sorted through and packed up most of the garage and I'm totally bushed!!
This means there's been no progress on my space scene apart from some mental visualisation. I've managed to get a little modelling done on a completely different project but I'm keen to get back into outer (true)Space. I'm starting to think I'll be struggling to complete this project before the end of the month given so many 'real world' distractions at the moment.
@Michael Billard - Thanks Michael - check out the round table forum for posts relating to the MMC (Monthly Modelling Challange). |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 23, 2007, 12:19am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Yokay - so I bit off more than I could chew but man it tastes great!
My project, inspired by Jacks challenge is a long way from finished - partly this is Dele's fault for creating all those neat animation triggers and doors and stuff and I keep wanting to add them to my creation.
The original plan was to create a truePlay scene where one arrives in a small futuristic windowless room and uses First Person Nav to find your way through a series of chambers and spaces ultimately finding your way out to find you've been wandering around inside an asteroid!
The learning curve I've been through has been steep and oh so much fun! I scrapped my first asteroid as I made new discoveries and ended up building another - or half building it! As more exciting toys began appearing in the Garage, thanks to Dele and others, I ended up redesigning things a third time.
This is still an ongoing project but in the interests of supporting Jacks excellent MMC initiative here some screenshots from an earlier incarnation of my project - note that the dome model was originally the dome one enters in the default startup scene of truerPlay and the asteroid shell was 'liberated' from Celestia as were some of it's textural components - everything else is made by me using tS 7.51 and the GIMP.
First pic looks like a collection of boxes and is a part of the 'city' inside the asteroid which a visitor must find a way through, over or around (there are 3 possible routes).
Second pic is another realtime view showing the asteroid and external parts of the base with my skydome (spacedome?) in the background.
Last pic is a screengrab of a model view showing various internal components, ramps, buildings engines, tanks and stuff on various modeller layers.
Much of this stuff here is now obsolete as I'm now building a spacestation instead (actually refitting an earlier model). |
Post by Steinie // Aug 23, 2007, 1:03am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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It's not the destination but the ride! Cool concept and it would be a cool ending to a truePlay SciFi Place! |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 25, 2007, 11:18am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Yokay - so I bit off more than I could chew but man it tastes great!
My project, inspired by Jacks challenge is a long way from finished - partly this is Dele's fault for creating all those neat animation triggers and doors and stuff and I keep wanting to add them to my creation.
The original plan was to create a truePlay scene where one arrives in a small futuristic windowless room and uses First Person Nav to find your way through a series of chambers and spaces ultimately finding your way out to find you've been wandering around inside an asteroid!
The learning curve I've been through has been steep and oh so much fun! I scrapped my first asteroid as I made new discoveries and ended up building another - or half building it! As more exciting toys began appearing in the Garage, thanks to Dele and others, I ended up redesigning things a third time.
This is still an ongoing project but in the interests of supporting Jacks excellent MMC initiative here some screenshots from an earlier incarnation of my project - note that the dome model was originally the dome one enters in the default startup scene of truerPlay and the asteroid shell was 'liberated' from Celestia as were some of it's textural components - everything else is made by me using tS 7.51 and the GIMP.
First pic looks like a collection of boxes and is a part of the 'city' inside the asteroid which a visitor must find a way through, over or around (there are 3 possible routes).
Second pic is another realtime view showing the asteroid and external parts of the base with my skydome (spacedome?) in the background.
Last pic is a screengrab of a model view showing various internal components, ramps, buildings engines, tanks and stuff on various modeller layers.
Much of this stuff here is now obsolete as I'm now building a spacestation instead (actually refitting an earlier model).
Hahaha! I'm in over my head bigtime with scripting so I can relate more than you know!:D
This would be so cool to explore online, and the way you decribed entering the place only to discover a way out and find you're on an asteroid is wild!!! I love it!
Did you try trueBlue's recommendation to cut the scene size down to a fraction of that 17 meg by saving it as an "RsRcd" format scene instead of an "RsScn" format scene? That tip enabled me to salvage a few very old and highly complicated big scenes of mine for future online use myself. Here's trueBlue's post on that if you haven't tried that already:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=43727&postcount=50
This looks like a blast to explore, so hopefully that method may help make it possible online someday for you.
I know what you mean about Dele's recent accomplishments too, I had to re-think a whole bunch of scenes I had already finished once those cool new interactive scripts of his came along, now there's all kinds of things we can do much better!
Well done W!ZARD, as always.:)
- Mark / 3dvisuals dude |
Post by Michael Billard // Aug 25, 2007, 8:41pm
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Michael Billard
Total Posts: 125
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OOOO that looks good! |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 26, 2007, 7:34pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks guys - sadly, due to being involved in packing stuff to move house I've not been able to do as much work on this as I'd hoped but it's still on the (extended) agenda.
3dvd - I've not yet treid the RsRcd approach but I'm aware of it - I will certainly be doing things that way when eventually I get something I think is good enough that I want to share online |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 27, 2007, 11:17am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Thanks guys - sadly, due to being involved in packing stuff to move house I've not been able to do as much work on this as I'd hoped but it's still on the (extended) agenda.
3dvd - I've not yet treid the RsRcd approach but I'm aware of it - I will certainly be doing things that way when eventually I get something I think is good enough that I want to share online
Excellent, I suspect that will help with filesizes quite a bit. I keep forgetting to use the RsRcd approach myself and I've got to snap out of that habit.
Immersive Scene Scripting is developing behind the scenes here in many very exciting new directions just in the last four days alone, in fact the discovery pace is so fast here I can't really even begin to keep abreast of it all.
Among these very new things suddenly being worked on for us all:
1) Waterfalls we can walk through in FPN.
2) Working Ferry's and Boats which follow predefined paths, and which can be activated by proximity or called by clicking objects in that scene.
3) Rivers, Pools, and Jaccuzzi's we can all enter neck deep as Avatars together.
4) Objects which speak when approached.
5) Realtime 3D Animations triggered in-scene via proximity to Avatars.
6) Doors which appear only while approached closely by Avatars.
7) Drawbridges which lower only while approached or used.
8) Special FX Animated Teleporters.
9) Objects which glow when approached.
10) Various working Elevators.
11) Transport of all kinds, land air and sea.
12) Hot Air Balloon rides.
13) A Monorail.
14) A Submarine.
15) A Miner's Hat (Lights your path in very dark places.:cool: )
16) Projectile Weapons.
There is much more in fact... those are just a few of the ones I know about already!:D
Looks like we're all in for some very fun times in the months ahead with trueSpace and truePlay, and I'm especially glad to see you diving into all this Stephen. Your truly innovative imagination, tremendous artistic talent, and masterful backstory skills have always been genuine sources of inspiration to us all, and now with the advent of genuinely Immersive trueSpace Scene Design, as we proceed down these exciting new paths together your presence is most welcome indeed.
- Mark / 3dvisuals dude |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 28, 2007, 2:51am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Aw no! Don't tell me that - all these new toys - I'll never get my project finished! |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 28, 2007, 5:48am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Aw no! Don't tell me that - all these new toys - I'll never get my project finished!
http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/20.gif
Ditto ! :D
- Mark / 3dvisuals dude |
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