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VOTE ts Speed Model Challenge #17 - "Musical Instrument" - Voting
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VOTE ts Speed Model Challenge #17 - "Musical Instrument" - Voting // Speed Model Challenge
Post by blakeo // Jul 31, 2007, 4:16am
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blakeo
Total Posts: 214
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OK Here's vote for SMC #17
Some fantastic models as usual - it's going to be another tough vote.
Voting will end at 3.25 pm BST (2.25 pm GMT - 9.25 am EST) on Thursday 9th August
View the entries here : http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3709
View the comments here : http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3710
Oh, and Please don't vote for yourself ;) |
Post by prodigy // Jul 31, 2007, 6:30am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Nice entrys.. Today my vote is for Changa.. (Steinie was very close to get my vote but nobody can play that steinevarius hahaha :p) |
Post by Steinie // Jul 31, 2007, 6:40am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Can I take back my vote for Prodigy?:D
I honestly wish I could have split my vote 3 or more ways on this one!!! I really believe they are all winners. It was a tough challenge but a great subject study. The submissions are fantastic. |
Post by prodigy // Jul 31, 2007, 7:46am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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I must confess i start to hate the HDRI and reflections on the smc.
And IMO the reflections are becoming more important when the people vote than the model itself..
So i recomend to change the name from Speed Model Challenge to Speed Picture Challenge.. that is a more fairly name.. ;)
Just my oppinion. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 31, 2007, 8:02am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I like that quality images are being produced because that helps show off TS, but if you wanted the modeling challenge to be more about modeling then we could drop the beauty render part and just post wires?
I've actually been thinking that it would be good to add an additional challenge that would be more geared towards finished images. Basically it would work the same as the SMC where the winner picks the topic and runs the polls, but entrants could take as long as they want to model the entry.
Maybe it could be the Monthly Modeling Challenge? 3 weeks to work on the project and 1 week for voting. All entrants encouraged (required?) to create a WIP thread. What do you guys think?
-Jack. |
Post by Steinie // Jul 31, 2007, 8:47am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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"Required" is a strong word, maybe "break your arms if you don't" would be nicer?
I like the longer time for a challenge idea too! A different type of challenge for me would be a theme instead of an object. I like Jack's idea of longer time for an Object also.
SMC showing only wire frame would be fair but a lot less interesting to me. (since I suck):D
I'm doing chrome balls next time....just chrome balls. Is that the subject yet?...chrome balls.... |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 31, 2007, 8:56am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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LOL Steinie. We need to enlist Norm's black Ops NDA guys ;)
It's the end of the month, so guess if enough people are interested we just need to nominate someone to pick a starting theme and draft up some rules. :)
I nominate Prodigy :p MWAHahahaha! :D
-Jack. |
Post by prodigy // Jul 31, 2007, 9:31am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Jack.. welcome to my banned List!! :p
Maybe i miss the point on this contest but the people always choose the more "preaty" render and not the most complex or well executed..
I remember the TS Image Gallery debate hahaha..
What ever.. I try always to make complex objects in a very shot time and if steinie make a chrome ball im sure he wins hahaha..
So you have 2 hours to make the model but unllimited time to make the texture, ligthing and blablalba.. Why you make another challenge with this rules..
1) Texture ligthing and Rendering under 2 hour.
2) modeling time under 1 week or all the time during the challenge..
then you can see better models.. Steinie can finish his Steinievarius and we can see the texture, lighting and rendering Skills.. not modeling..
I nominate :rolleyes: yes.. Blakeo .. where is your musical instrument?? |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 31, 2007, 10:22am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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:D
Well I don't have any problems with limiting the lighting and texturing time for the SMC. Maybe make it so the whole thing has to be done in 2 hours, but not count render time. Guess it'll be up to the next winner if they want to change it for the next SMC challenge.
I think you are approaching it a bit wrong though Prodigy, I don't think it's about the most complex model. It's about the best executed model. A model with millions of polys likely isn't anywhere as efficient as a well sculpted SDS cage. It's still about creating inspiring art as much as showing technical proficiency. You're work is always top notch Prodigy, and I must admit that I'm constantly amazed at how quickly you can produce.
I think having a separate contest that focuses more on a finished concept and finished image would help allow the SMC to be judged more on modeling than on presentation.
Here's some draft rules for the Monthly Modeling Challenge:
1.) Submission expresses the topic. If topic is an object, then it must include at least one instance of the object which should be the focus of the image.
2.) Use your own work. No pre-made models, please.
3.) Start a Work In Progress thread for your submission.
4.) Submission should be one 800x600 image.
5.) Indicate tools used to create your submission. TS should be the primary application used to create the image. Post Processing in a paint program is ok.
-Jack. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 31, 2007, 10:29am
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Jack Edwards
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Ah but Steinie's crome ball only wins if it's an SDS cube. :p :D
Seriously though don't pay us any mind Georg! You're model is very good and your render is even better. ;) It's definitely a well deserved win if you get it! Looks like you need to start thinking of a topic for the next one. :D
-Jack. |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jul 31, 2007, 10:38am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
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Yes, the texturing, lighting, rendering, etc, can give a better impression of a model than just the wireframe on its own but that's all part and parcel of the whole process, do you see just wireframes in the monthly gallery? There is no rule to vote for only the best model or the best render, the voting is based purely on the individuals own criteria. That, in my mind, is a much fairer way and leaves it open to people with various degrees of skill in different aspects of the creation process. To just ask for wireframes would, as far as I'm concerned, be wrong as it's not encouraging people to finish things. We've seen various finished pics (including in the gallery) that have been inspired by their initial SMC entry.
As for other challenges, I like the idea behind it but fear that opening up various other challenges will start to dilute things. Some people have tried to start up others and they've always sort of fizzled out. The SMC is slowly building and attracting more people, it would be a shame to water it down now. A 'theme' challenge is a great idea and would be very interesting but if I've spent three weeks on something I wouldn't want to have to rush the final stages just to hit a deadline - full projects are ready when they're ready.
Them be my views anyway. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 31, 2007, 11:03am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I like that quality images are being produced because that helps show off TS, but if you wanted the modeling challenge to be more about modeling then we could drop the beauty render part and just post wires?
I've actually been thinking that it would be good to add an additional challenge that would be more geared towards finished images. Basically it would work the same as the SMC where the winner picks the topic and runs the polls, but entrants could take as long as they want to model the entry.
Maybe it could be the Monthly Modeling Challenge? 3 weeks to work on the project and 1 week for voting. All entrants encouraged (required?) to create a WIP thread. What do you guys think?
-Jack.
I agree about the renders, they have no place here(my opinion). I would be up for a monthly challenge, or even 24hr, but I think that would require a render, and wireframe. Rendering and scene management are just as important in our little world.
BTW Jack, I looked for your harp....???was that a WIP, I really wanted to vote for it.
and as I've stated(for any SMC I enter), the winner(if they so choose) will recieve a free set of tutorials from my site. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 31, 2007, 11:59am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Diluting the entrees for the SMC would be my worry as well, but I think having a slower paced challenge would allow slower modelers to participate as well. Definitely need the deadlines though, look at the Roman Avatar contest... without the deadlines the entries never get finished and we'd not be able to move on to the next topic.
I've got a cool idea for the first MMC, what do you guys thing about "Space" for the first theme? :cool:
@Nowherebrain, by the time I got the thing strung it took about 4 hours, so the harp wasn't elgible. :( I waisted too much time modeling the part where the wire wraps around the pegs too and that part isn't even visible at a distance where you can see the whole model.
-Jack. |
Post by kena // Jul 31, 2007, 12:46pm
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kena
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Well... I'm a pretty slow modeler, and I seem to be able to get something in. Most weeks. they are not as sophisticated as some, but I think they are not too bad. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Jul 31, 2007, 2:21pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Alas I ran out of time this past week. Too many irons in the fire on several different projects.
I can see both sides of the issue with respect to a "final render" vs something a bit more level in terms of judging the model itself.
If we wanted to make the playing field level you could alway demand that objects be painted in flat grey such that everyone's texture would be identical. Maybe allow transparency to see interiors of objects if that's part of the work to show. Also, lighting might be set up in a default scene and everyone forced to use that.
Personally, I like the final renders. Models are often designed with plans for a particular texture in mind (especially if alpha maps are required to represent parts such as the grill on a barbeque grill). Texturing does show off the model more so a conscious effort would need to be made to judge on the model alone. Besides, the final renders are fun to look at. :) |
Post by prodigy // Jul 31, 2007, 3:13pm
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Last hour i send a message but the conection was lost.. :(
what ever.. My intention is not pull down the winner..
Other point im not sad to loose or im a bad looser, i loose 15 times :D and i dont win money or prestige here.. just for fun, but as i said before, here is not a Speed MODEL challenge thats all.. so why we dont change the name to for example..
Speed image Challenge sounds good.. :)
Other point, Im seriously thinking to make on the next "SIC" a video showing how i modeling, i know are many people thinking.. "hey, he cant model that in that time, he must fake this" and for them im gonna make that video.. ;)
Yes, i feel little dispointed when i work hard to make a good entry and for me it's by far the most complex model i ever mayde on that sort of time..
Is like im playing a football game on a tennis court.. :D
OK finish..
NEEEEXT!!
And this is for the winner.. I want a big big challenge for the next SIC :cool: |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 31, 2007, 4:13pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Jack, I don't think there is any reason why you cannot start your own challenge, I would attend(schedule permitting(like I can't find time in a month)). I think Prodigy actually started these, am I wrong Prod? As far as SMC/SIC this will always be a debate of minimal proportions..none of us care that much I think..so long as we see a wire/solid wire image alongside the render. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 31, 2007, 6:40pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Guess I could. Was kinda hoping to start it off a bit more democratically though. ;)
I need to get some sleep then depending only what posts happen tonight, I'll start it in the morning.
If you guys want to debate the starting topic feel free! :D
-Jack. |
Post by Dragneye // Jul 31, 2007, 10:33pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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As a 'Speed Model' contest, we should be eyeing the design rather than the image. How intricate, complex, maybe even ingenious a design can one create in a limited amount of time, using this specific product. (thats my literal interpretation).
As artists (or any 'viewer'), our eyes are drawn to a pretty picture/render first (pretty, or interesting, or "my eye is drawn to this rather than that", is subjective by nature); aesthetics rather than functionality seems to come first, at least in my eyes.
The goal of having this website, from the eyes of its creator (I don't mean to put words in your mouth Roman, so I apologize if I 'overstep' in any way; I'm just speakin' it from my eyes) is ultimately, "what can you do to show off this product?; show the world what tS can do".
The way I sees it, if it's not included in the box with the original purchase, it's technically an add-on; a complement to tS, not tS, so we should stick to the tools at hand, and everything else is extra. The only reason we would allow using a secondary program like um, Paint Shop Pro, or.. Terragen, or whatever, is to complete the... render; the 'picture'.
With that in mind, I have two points to make (cuz this is becoming long-winded. Sorry) - If we are to judge the 'picture', than guys like me are at a disadvantage from the start. For example, I don't have Vray yet, so I don't have that extra 'polish' that it affords, yet it IS called a modelling contest.
The other point is, I'm still struggling with just getting tS to do exactly what I want it to do, (my eye knows what it wants, my technical knowhow, don't yet) so for me, its a great challenge to get it done within the agreed timeframe, not from lack of ideas, but from lack of education. (ex: in the last challenge, my original idea for a bbq came in minutes after I read the thread [the trunk of a VW Beetle was the bbq] but there was no way to make the time limit cuz I couldn't work, or find, the needed tools. But I was close, so if I had more time, "I coulda been a contender I tell ya" :) )
Though I do agree with TheWickedWitch that two contests would dilute particapation, it would be fairer to seperate 'image' from 'substance'. If so, then the idea of all models being an agreed upon basic color is a good one for the 'Model'.
I also like the idea of a 'Theme'. That would open a whole new avenue of expression. That would also show the deeper mindview of the individual artists here, something I love to watch.
And finally, I too wish I could spread my vote; there was once again, many great choices to choose from.
PS: if Steinie makes chrome balls, can I make brass ones? :D |
Post by brotherx // Jul 31, 2007, 11:27pm
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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As a 'Speed Model' contest, we should be eyeing the design rather than the image.
I agree but only to a certain extent...the model is only or quite often a small part of the end product and the textures can complete the model. I mean, what use is a model if when rendered it doesn't look good - been there. It took me about a week to get the settings right for a render that I recently did just because I'm not used to worrying about renders, just the models. (and they've always been pretty crude)
The only way to exclude texturing as a factor would be for the challenges to be more specific, like modelling a wooden chair or a snare drum for example. Even then, there's still a lot of room for interpretation. I suppose if you posted a photo of something and said model this, that would be fair...but where's the fun in that - no creativity. |
Post by prodigy // Aug 1, 2007, 5:21am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Nowherebrain, i just call SIC because "for me" is a Speed image challenge, And be honest... the voters always choose the best looking and not for the complexity or creativity..
I think only changing the name it solve the problem.. ;)
In fact i like very much to make final images because get a solid object is not funny at all..
At the begining i think on a finish look like Jack's Avatar.. but i think is like take off the cherry from the top of a cake.. ;)
I see on Speed Model Challenge a wrong concept.
Speed Image Challenge (for example)
Is a more open concept so you can make a detailed model, a simple model, with complex lighting or not, complex texture or not, or just put a jpg infront the camera.. |
Post by Morgan // Aug 1, 2007, 5:47am
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Morgan
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Speaking for nobody but myself, I always vote based on the actual model. The texturing and final scene are certainly nice eye candy, but it's not what determines my vote. To me, speed model challenge indicates precisely what it is. And yes, textures, lighting, and render engine are important to the final image... but, while I certainly don't want to downplay the importance of those things, they're a separate set of skills. Hand the same exported .obj to a hundred Poser users (picked because there's no modelling involved there), and you'll get at least 60 different texturing jobs and lighting arrangements, but the model would be the same in all cases. To me, in a modelling challenge, it's the model that matters, and nothing else. The render image is just to help show what the wireframe represents.
Most of the people in this thread have had some fantastic looking final renders in this or in other challenges, and that's great. But it shouldn't be the deciding factor, and I'm not sure it is on the whole. In the specific case of Prodigy's current entry, I don't know that it's the lack of a "beauty render" that's hampering its vote-gaining ability, so much as it's the wireframe. It's such a big and complex object that when the wireframe's size is restricted to what it is, the most complex parts, are virtually impossible to see, and the viewer is left looking at a stack of boxes. A close-up of the wireframe of the detailed parts would have been helpful, but the rules state one image, and "a" wireframe.
I'm wondering if we should change that part. It's sometimes difficult to properly show the details of an object in just a single image and a single wireframe. Having the option to say "here's a wireframe of the more detailed section" might be helpful.
(My vote this round, incidentally, went to Nez; I thought it looked like a very well-built model, with a good approach to how to build it.) |
Post by Steinie // Aug 1, 2007, 6:06am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Prodigy, Here is a view no one brought up. Your looking at this as a "Professional" Modeler, you do this for a living. Most of us are not. So your eye see mistakes others might not see. Everytime I see your work I see "Professionalism" Can you imagine a Professional Soccer team playing against a College Team? So I'm glad others beat you because it means they tried very hard to approach your quality of work.
You have over 9000 hits on your thread, we KNOW your GOOD!:) |
Post by prodigy // Aug 1, 2007, 8:07am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Bob, i work making buildings not musical instruments hehehe...
Blakeo for example is an incredible modeler, and his chess piece was simply fantastic and he get few votes only.. and maybe you'r right..
I use this simple way to make my vote..
1) 1~ 10 model
2) 1~ 5 ligthing and rendering
3) 1~ 5 image composition
4) 1~ 10 General idea
Then i get a number and the best get my vote.. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2007, 9:27am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I agree with Morgan.
But I think it's possible to take a slightly different view on the phrase "modeling challenge": The main point being that the content be created from scratch as an excercize in skill building. As opposed to using pre-built models or 2D painting. Basically modeling = creating.
Originally I was more concerned with construction of the model exclusively, but I think the quality of the visual presentation of some entries is so strong that it shouldn't be ignored. So now I take the totality of the presentation and the creativity of concept into consideration on which I choose to vote for.
I've posted before that I do think VRay is an advantage, but if you look at Nez's work, he's had very nice entries and he using an older version of tS that doesn't have VRay. Lightworks is very good for these quick challenges because of the Darktree shaders that don't need UV mapping.
Also completely agree with Steinie, too. :)
The 1 image limitation is to keep the gallery simple. Keep in mind that the winning image does get displayed in the SMC gallery thread. A solution for the wires that I think will help for larger models would be to show multiple views but to composite them into the one image. Also you can have more than one instance of the object. So one copy with up close view on the detail work and another in the distance showing in full could be a good device for showing off the detail.
Edit: And a WIP thread can help too since then you can show off as many views as you want plus the construction. Nowherebrain's approach is definitely the ultimate though: put it on a video. :D
-Jack. |
Post by Steinie // Aug 1, 2007, 9:37am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Well there is one other way to make your work better and get more votes.
For a limited time only
Vote for Steinie and get free Twinkies! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2007, 9:52am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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LOL Steinie! .... btw are Twinkies approved for export to other countries?
-Jack. |
Post by blakeo // Aug 1, 2007, 1:22pm
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blakeo
Total Posts: 214
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Here's my thoughts on this -
The SMCs are there for fun and learning - but it's nice that we pick a favourite as it adds an extra drive to be better than your last model and thus improve your skills... winning is not important - but doing enough to get a vote or two is very encouraging.
Also, personally, I wouldn't want to limit entries to no textures, single lighting set-up, same scene, etc as I see these as stiffling creativity, which is a Bad Thing(tm):)
I agree that the final image quality is becoming more prominent in the SMC but when you review the SMC Winner's Gallery it's far from the most important factor IMHO. ProfKhaos's tesla pawn won on it's great model. Only 2 challenges ago! (don't mean to dis your render PK :p )
But I hold my hands up for my BBQ render - modelling alone did not get me the votes - texturing/lighting/render did. The metal grill is an alpha map. The foil has a displacement map plus bump map. The charcoals are displacement and bump mapped. The flame is a bitmap. I added smoke in photoshop. I stated these things in the submission so that people knew what I had done to create my image and could take that into account when voting.
I would not consider these methods 'modelling' in my understanding of the word, but they certainly are part of the model...
Also I am fortunate enough to have been able to afford the latest version of tS with Vray - a BIG factor in my recent models. Thinking about displacement mapping alone, I could not have done without it, no matter how good prodigy thinks I am ;) ... (thanks for the encouraging words Prodigy but I'm NOT that good really - I'm just playing with the tS tools and basic primitives mostly - which is a testament to the power of tS 7.5) But would it be right to say "no displacement maps or Soft paint" - these are very powerful 7.5 tools which not everyone has but are still great tS tools for modelling. But I have learned a lot about using these tools from doing the SMCs...
So, I think texturing of the model is as important as the vertices that make it and should be included in the allocated time. I also think the challenge works as it is regarding one image and a wireframe - it makes you think about the presentation of the model much more. Render engine is not so important - most of us know that Vray is easy to get a nice final image from so getting a great render from Lightworks might even be seen as 'better'...
So, how about we keep the challenge as it is but extend the 2 hours to 3 (or 4?) and include texturing in the time, including any google searching, photo taking, photoshop work, etc? And possibly add as a requirement a short description of how the model was made using what tools, so voters can judge how skillfully the model was made (which is not really apparent from a wireframe...)
Gees - I've gone on a bit, sorry. :o
B
BTW - also like Jack's idea of MMC but probably won't have time to participate. :( |
Post by Georg // Aug 1, 2007, 8:37pm
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Georg
Total Posts: 270
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Interesting debate. Fascination for shiny surfaces is probably in the genes, it may have something to do with selecting the right fruits, or shiny, healthy flesh in your partner, or whatever. I am the first to agree that I received many votes (thank you, thank you) because of the render and not for the modeling, but HDR was one of the reasons for me to update to 7.5. I am still in the phase that I feel I am in a candy store all by myself, trying everything out. I like Jack’s idea for a somewhat longer lasting type of WIP thread on a theme, but I hope the SMC will remain because the ‘speed’ aspect makes it nice.
Georg |
Post by Nez // Aug 3, 2007, 3:15am
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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An interesting discussion indeed!
Personally, I'm pretty happy with the SMC as it is - I doubt the judging is based entirely on the model alone, but for me and at least some others, it is still the main influence on my vote - but of course the presentation (textures/lighting etc) has a bit of influence and makes for a much more interesting and enjoyable showcase. I'd wondered about suggesting everything be rendered in flat grey - would certainly help show modelling alone, but rather dull. The other thing that really affects my vote is the imagination/creativity of a model - I'm much more likely to vote for something original/interesting/amusing that shows some creative thought, even if the final render isn't so polished.
Like Prodigy, I pretty much always try to model as much as I can in the time and hope that the detail of my modelling will help 'sell' my image as I know the final output is going to look as good as HDRI/Vray renders that others can produce. But I don't mind that so much - I only really enter the SMC for fun and never expect to compete for the top places in any case - I'm just pleased if I can pick up a couple of votes.
I'd like to think that this final stage is getting slightly better in my images and am really pleased with how my guitar is faring in the vote, particulalrly as I was quite pleased with the actual finished image this time - thanks for the positive comments and votes so far - my best ever SMC showing!
NB Blakeo - I think it shows honesty/integrity that you recognise that your BBQ was perhaps a 'cheeky' winner. In my opinion - and I mean no offence, so I hope you don't take it - I'm not sure it should have won: as you admit, I wasn't on the modelling side and much more about textures, and I thought several of the other entries were more desrving from a modelling point of view. That said, it was undeniably a fantastic image, very well crafted - like I said, I don't mean any offence and hope you don't take it that way. I certainly don't mind -half the fun of the SMC is to see the way the votes turn out.
Gosh, I have rambled on a bit, better call it a day. With regards to the MMC, interesting idea, doubt I'l lhave time to take part as I barely have enough time for the SMC! Certainly can't this monthas I'll be off on holiday without my computer for half the month! |
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