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Animation across the bridge - AE -> KFE
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Animation across the bridge - AE -> KFE // Archive: Tech Forum
Post by Dlangar // May 27, 2008, 10:08am
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Dlangar
Total Posts: 13
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So I've been modeling a few weeks now with TS 7.51, on the workspace side, and am really liking it. Now I'm in the rigging/skinning/animating part of my project, and I've got a few questions I hope some of the experts here can answer before I move too far forward.
My ultimate objective is an animated character exported for Torque's DTS/DSQ format. To this end, I have been using the .DTS/DSQ exporter from Dark Industries (which is very old, and no longer supported, but is the only thing we have) that was built for exporting the Truespace/Gamespace skeleton heirarchy and Key-Frame-Editor animations. I've munged through some gamespace tutorials on the subject, and successfully rigged and animated some short sequences on the modeller side of things.
However, here's the rub. What I *really* want to do is animate using TS 7.51's sophisticated Animation Editor. Especially with its ability to incorporate physics impulses into keyframed animation sequences. So my *ideal* workflow would be to..
1.) Model on the workspace side
2.) Rig and skin on the workspace side (or modelside, I really don't care)
3.) Animate on the workspace side
4.) Move workspace bone heirarchy and animation sequences into the modeler side, so I can then
5.) Export the animations using Dark Industries's old gS 1.6 exporter into Torque.
Does anyone know if what I want to do is even possible? I don't mind scripting, or munging in the link editor to figure out, but before I set down the long road of learning how to use the Animation Editor in detail, I would like some assurance that the end goal is even possible.
As a side note -- I understand that a future version of Truespace is going to do away with the modeller side altogether. I get this, I understand this, but I truly hope that Caligari includes support for Torque's game Engine (full support, including animation exporting) as a part of that upgrade, or opens up the API to allow export plugins to be created. Otherwise they will effectively neuter the *only* reason I'm using Truespace, which is as a tool for creating game content. I can't imagine I'd be the only one. :)
Thanks in advance for reading.
Dlangar |
Post by Burnart // May 27, 2008, 1:04pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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I'd be very happy to be proved wrong but I believe it is not possible to transfer 7.51 anim editor information across the bridge to the modelside's key frame editor. The sophistication of the new system is a very different animal and is one of the reasons for evolving the program.
What you really want is something that would allow you to export from workspace to your required format. Whether that would be possible with some scripting I can't say. Perhaps Collada export then open in another program that exports to your required format? - again I don't know if its actually possible. |
Post by Dlangar // May 27, 2008, 2:32pm
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Dlangar
Total Posts: 13
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What you really want is something that would allow you to export from workspace to your required format. Whether that would be possible with some scripting I can't say. Perhaps Collada export then open in another program that exports to your required format? - again I don't know if its actually possible.
In an ideal world, that's exactly what I'd like to have, but so far I haven't found any pipeline that can get me from Workspace Modeling/Animation to Torque DTS/DSQ. On your suggestion, I did some research into the collada export possibility, but it seems everyone is building collada exporters for their packages, but not importers (as of yet).
If anyone else has any input on this, I'd be deeply appreciative. Otherwise, I guess I'll keep my animating to the modelling side, and use Puppeteer or Motion Studio. (which seems a shame, really). |
Post by Délé // May 27, 2008, 2:33pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I don't mean to sound discouraging, but I've had Torque for over a year and I've pretty much given up on creating DTS/DSQ files. I tried that old exporter that you mentioned and I couldn't make any real progress with it (though I hear it is possible). I ended up getting another free program (DeleD Lite) along with their $15 DIF exporter just to export to the DIF file format. The textures don't really transfer from tS to DeleD though, so even that is a lot of extra work.
As for your desire to transfer the animation from the workspace AE to the KFE, Burnart is right, that will not work. The new bones system can not be recognized by the old KFE. Unfortunately we really need a new DTS/DSQ exporter written for the workspace.
Recently I've been trying to find another free or cheap program that supports DTS/DSQ export and COLLADA import. I was hoping that with COLLADA export from the workspace in tS, I could import the animation into another package and export it from there as DTS/DSQ. I checked out Blender as I heard there is a DTS exporter for it. I got frustrated just trying to import the COLLADA file though. I haven't gotten it to work as of yet. I got frustrated and gave up for now.
Unfortunately, I think exporting it to another package with COLLADA, then exporting it to DTS from there is the only real hope at present. I've been thinking of trying to write a DTS/DSQ exporter for the workspace. I believe that I could do it, but it would probably take me some time to figure out. I would like to see a DIF exporter too. It would be nice if tS worked well with Torque.
Right now tS and Torque aren't really compatible though. :( |
Post by transient // May 27, 2008, 3:18pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Theoretically you should be able to export your bones anims as a bvh file, and import them into gamespace using truebones. You'll have to reattach the skeleton to your mesh, and I don't think it will work with baked 7.5 physics. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 27, 2008, 3:50pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Dele, have you tried using UU3D to convert from Collada to Torque format? TS Collada export does export the skeletal animation data. |
Post by Délé // May 27, 2008, 4:54pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Dele, have you tried using UU3D to convert from Collada to Torque format? TS Collada export does export the skeletal animation data.I don't have UU3D so hadn't thought of that. Thanks for that idea, it might work. I should probably buy that program anyway. I would still need to find a way to transfer animation though. It would be so much easier if we could export all Torque formats right from tS (DIF, DTS, DSQ). I've jumped through so many darn hoops already just trying to use Torque. It gets frustrating when there aren't clear and easy paths to simply get the models and animation into the game. That really should be the easiest part of creating a game.
As far as Collada, I recall someone using Collada to transfer animation to Softimage or some other program. I could swear that there was talk of transferring skeletal information. It was a while ago though, so my memory might not be right. |
Post by jamesmc // May 27, 2008, 5:03pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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XSI has a free 'gamer' package for download. Have no idea of its capabilities and whether or not it does animation.
edit: found the info
http://www.softimage.com/products/modtool/
XSI Mod Tool (FREE)
Want to kick-start your career in game development? Get the SOFTIMAGE|XSI Mod Tool—a FREE 3D modeling and animation package that plugs right into Microsoft XNA Game Studio Express and Valve Half-Life 2.
Microsoft XNA
Valve Source
Crytek CryENGINE 2
Epic Unreal Technology 3
Anark Gameface
COLLADA-enabled engines
Papervision 3D
OC3 Entertainment FaceFX
Unity
EDGELIB |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 27, 2008, 5:06pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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The animation does transfer through to UU3D. So likely depends on the Torque plugin whether it makes it into the torque format though:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5189&highlight=collada+UU3d |
Post by Délé // May 27, 2008, 5:27pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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For characters you need to define markers for holding weapons and such. If that can be done with UU3D, that would be great. I'll have to look into it.
Not sure how up to date this chart is, but it looks like the UU3D might be limited in what it can export to Torque.
http://alexswanson.com/torque/dts/ |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 27, 2008, 5:39pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Hmm... guess you won't know until you try it. :( Could be that Collada -> Blender -> DTS might be a better route according to the chart...
Is the DTS file spec posted anywhere?
Writing your own TS exporter (script) or a Collada -> DTS converter would assure full compatibility and all the features you want to add. ;) Bet people would pay for it as well. |
Post by Dlangar // May 27, 2008, 6:35pm
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Dlangar
Total Posts: 13
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So the UU3D angle was definitely worth checking out. I was able to verify that I could import a mesh and it's animations into UU3D using collada -- so that much was encouraging. Right now, the only blender plugin for collada doesn't support importing of collada animation, so that route doesn't work,according to this. (http://http://colladablender.illusoft.com/cms/) So that route seems closed. But there might be a format UU3D does export that blender *could* import. Ugh.. these are the kinds of circles I've been running around in myself.
I did naively try to export the UU3D object (after importing it from collada) into .X, which supports animation, supposedly, and then read the .X format back into Truespace through the modeller side. Sadly, truespace crashed during the import. Still, I think there might be possibility here. |
Post by Délé // May 27, 2008, 6:45pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Milkshape (http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/) might also be another avenue, but one that I haven't been very successful with either.
I know what you mean about the circles. It's redicules how difficult it is to get this stuff into the game. It doesn't help that Garage Games doesn't really provide programmers with much info into the file formats. :rolleyes:
Is the DTS file spec posted anywhere?
From what I've seen on the Garage Games forums, unfortunately no. They suggest looking at the python files from the blender exporter for some insight. You would think that Garage Games would at least make it easy for programmers to write exporters by providing a specs sheet. Guess they don't want to make it easy for people to use their engine. :rolleyes:
So it would take a fair amount of work to dissect the python scripts an write and exporter for tS. Can be done, just ain't gonna be easy. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 28, 2008, 4:04am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Hmm... sounds like the easiest way would be to write an importer that loads the data into the Torque engine manually then use the engine itself to export the DTS file. Kinda defeats the purpose, LOL.
One thing is certain though without the file format spec, Caligari can't/isn't going to write an exporter... |
Post by Dlangar // May 28, 2008, 6:03am
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Dlangar
Total Posts: 13
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Dug a little further on this. There is not any (as near as I can tell) official document describing the .DTS file specification, but there are resources from which it can be derived. For instance, included with the engine license is an SDK library, specifically for creating importers and exporters, and full source is included. I'm also fairly certain that Garage Games would be happy to work with Caligari (that is, Microsoft :) ) directly to assist in creating an exporter. Of course that's just my speculation.
But honestly, according to this very recent post from one of the GG employees, (http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=75436#535168) I suspect it more likely that GG will get collada compatibility built into their engine before Caligari gets .DTS/.DSQ export into their modeler.
For now, I'm going go forward with animating on the modeller side, in the KFE, just to move forward. I'll continue to learn the AE on the workspace side, and try to find a way to get collada into torque.
So.. related.. someone mentioned a plugin that allows you to import .BVH animations into the KFE? I'll have to go look for that..
thanks tons all for the information! I learned a lot about collada that I didn't know before out of this thread, so all's not lost. :) |
Post by Burnart // May 28, 2008, 1:06pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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The mentions of Collada in this thread make the following only slightly off topic - the new Poser Pro has Collada import and export. Wish tS did ... I say it again, it ain't a true interchange format if you only have it going one direction as in tS's export only. (In case anyone is wondering I don't have Poser Pro - just read some info thats all.) |
Post by jamesmc // May 28, 2008, 1:13pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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The mentions of Collada in this thread make the following only slightly off topic - the new Poser Pro has Collada import and export. Wish tS did ... I say it again, it ain't a true interchange format if you only have it going one direction as in tS's export only. (In case anyone is wondering I don't have Poser Pro - just read some info thats all.)
The free software from Daz, Daz Studio I believe can read/write Collada 1.4. |
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