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LOD normalmap button and panel?
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LOD normalmap button and panel? // Archive: Tech Forum
Post by Tiles // May 21, 2008, 7:06am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Manual tells me that there are two ways to create a normalmap in 7.51. The first is from one high poly mesh. Here i have to use the normalmap button. I have sucessfully crashed this method a few times now. Doesn't work it seems.
But i need the other method anyway. I hope at least this one works. The method with two meshes, one highpoly one lowpoly. That's the one i search because i want to keep my mesh structure, my edgeloops. And the first method shoots down my mesh structure by reduction. The manual talks about LOD normalmap panel when it comes to this method. So i am at searching the LOD normalmap button.
Where is it? |
Post by transient // May 21, 2008, 5:19pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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My advice is to use blender, or if you have a religious opposition to it's interface like some do (personally I think it's much better than 7.5), xnormal. Both these apps will do what you want. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 21, 2008, 8:35pm
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Jack Edwards
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Tiles, the normal map tool in TS is a polygon reduction tool. It uses the higher res model to create the normal map for the lower res model.
The tool can be put to more uses if you're willing to LE dive, but I agree with Transient. For the use you're looking to put it, CrazyBump or xNormal would be more what you're looking for. |
Post by Tiles // May 21, 2008, 9:57pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Using Blender to do the trueSpace normal mapping? Funny guys. And thanks for the advice :p
I will of course use Blender for the normal mapping when i find out that the TS 7.51 normal mapping doesn't work. And that's the point. First i want to try the promised features in TS. I have spent my money for it. I have paid for these features. Normal mapping should be there since TS 7.0. The manual is from 7.0.
The manual not only says the normal mapping feature is there. The manual also states that there are TWO ways. So i expect to find at least the buttons for it. I still have found the first way. The polygon reduction way you mention here Jack. Using one high poly mesh. This method uses polygon reduction.
What i search now is the other mentioned way. The way that works without polygon reduction. The way the manual mentions with this words:
You can build a normalmap with two ways. with the first method you take a high-polygon mesh and create both a simplified version of it and a corresponding normal map. With the second method you take both low- and high polygon meshes and create a normal map that corresponds to the details of the high-poly mesh.
The manual describes the first way somehow clear. But not the second way. I simply cannot find the panel for it, nor a clear description how to proceed. So again, how does the second way work? Which button to click and how to proceed? How is it thought to work?
And how do i export the normalmap after i created it? The export feature in the spaghetti station is disfunctional and just crashes TS. See, i still am in the LE ;)
While at fixing typoes. Do we write normalmap or do we write normal map? :D |
Post by transient // May 21, 2008, 10:54pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I will of course use Blender for the normal mapping when i find out that the TS 7.51 normal mapping doesn't work. And that's the point. First i want to try the promised features in TS. I have spent my money for it. I have paid for these features. Normal mapping should be there since TS 7.0. The manual is from 7.0.
Normal baking code is pretty complex, so I've been told, and xnormal does a professional job. I'm just trying to save you some frustration, but if you want to keep beta testing an app you paid for a year ago, more power to you.:)
I'm saving myself for 7.6, assuming it's free and I still have the patience. |
Post by Tiles // May 21, 2008, 11:14pm
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Tiles
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Thanks transient. I see it as a hobby now to search for working features in TS 7.51 from time to time. It's the software developer inside me that forces me to report bugs when i stumble across them then :)
Hmm, Blender normal mapping is really complex. Watched a few videos now, and am lost. Seems that i first need a bachelor in rocket science here. And i would need some iron fingertips too. Just hotkeys, gnah.
Nvidias Melody crashes, no matter what i try. Uninstalled ...
XNormal page is down at the moment. That's not fair.
And no advice how to work with TS.
Life is cruel, heh. Seems that my normal map has to wait for the Xnormal page getting back into business. See, i would have enough time at the moment for alphatesting the normal mapping feature in 7.51 :p |
Post by jamesmc // May 21, 2008, 11:32pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Here's a tutorial for doing a normal map in PhotoShop. It utilizes the NVIDIA plug-in (has link on tut page also)
http://forum.digimill.net/index.php?topic=236.msg1777#msg1777
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/photoshop_dds_plugins.html
Adobe Photoshop Plug-ins
This installer contains two plug-ins and several helpful scripts for Adobe® Photoshop®:
NVIDIA Normal Map Filter
NVIDIA DDS Plug-in
NVIDIA Mipster Script
NVIDIA Cube Map ShufflerThe Plug-ins
The NVIDIA Normal Map filter creates normal maps from height maps for per pixel rendering. The DDS plug-in supports the DXTC texture compression format and allows you to open and save .dds files in RGB format. It reads and writes .dds files compressed or uncompressed.
*Note: If you are looking for texture compression libraries or command-line tools, please take a look at our new GPU-Accelerated Texture Tools (http://developer.nvidia.com/object/texture_tools.html), which provide a 10x performance boost if you have a GeForce 8 Series GPU.
The Scripts
Mipster is a mip-map generation tool that leverages the power of Photoshop CS2’s internal image filtering engine along with the NVIDIA DDS Plug-in and Normal Map Filter (for Windows). While Mipster will function without either of these NVIDIA plug-ins (e.g., on Macintosh), it works best in tandem with them.
The Cube Map Shuffler script rearranges cube-map-face elements for use with different export and editing tools. It can quickly convert and copy between different cubemap layout formats, a task that has previously been annoyingly slow and error-prone. If you are used to editing cube map faces, you’ll find this script makes format changes a lot easier.
If you are working with DDS files, you may also find our DDS Utilities (http://developer.nvidia.com/object/dds_utilities.html), DDS Thumbnail Viewer (http://developer.nvidia.com/object/dds_thumbnail_viewer.html), and Windows Texture Viewer (http://developer.nvidia.com/object/windows_texture_viewer.html) to be useful. |
Post by Tiles // May 22, 2008, 12:46am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Thanks for this detailled description and the links Jamesmc. Really useful. Let's have a look if i can get it to work with Gimp. I don't have Photoshop. (EDIT: nope, crashes at the plugins. But i think there is a Gimp substitute for it ... )
Still, that's not what i am after. I am so mean and ask for the trueSpace way here. Really amazing that every answer leads away from that :D |
Post by jamesmc // May 22, 2008, 2:29am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Maybe one of the trueSpace scriptors can write a utility to do normal maps.
Here's one for Cinema 4d in detail.
http://planetpixelemporium.com/tutorialpages/normal3.html |
Post by Tiles // May 22, 2008, 3:10am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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ROFL. I don't search for an standalone app to do the job, or a way in another renderapp to do the job. I also don't search for tutorials for those apps and renderapps. And i don't search for plugins. That is all stuff i am NOT searching. Nevertheless thanks for the many links and tips that appeared now. Surely useful for future readers :)
I search for the trueSpace 7.51 way to create a normal map out of two meshes, mentioned, but unfortunately not described in detail, in the manual. It is mentioned, it must be there. And when it is just a disfunctional button. :D
Could please somebody enlighten me how it was thought to work, even when it sucks or even doesn't work? I am really just after the trueSpace 7.5 way here. Unbelievable but true ;) |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 22, 2008, 4:10am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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The normal mapper works fine for me Tiles, so you if you have two models that crash it, then you should send them to Paul or post them here so the beta testers can forward them on to the dev team.
Here's how you use it for what you're trying to do:
12460
1.) Add Normal map generator to high res object.
2.) Save the editable shape node of the low res object to the library.
3.) Enter the high res object in the LE.
4.) Delete the Mesh Simplifier and Mesh Unwrapper bricks that connect to the LoResInput.
5.) drag the Editable shape node into the Link Editor and connect it's Mesh output to the LoResInput on the Normalmap Generator.
Extracting the normal map is a bit more complicated. Getting the normal into a D3D material is just a matter of hooking up the Normal map export to the normal map on the D3D material, but I can't find a built in brick that'll let you save it out to a file.
So my guess is that you need to code a brick that reads in a bitmap input and can save out a bitmap file. Like I said, while it does work, it's a pain in the ass, and of limited use. |
Post by TomG // May 22, 2008, 6:05am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Which page on the manual?
There is only one method of generating a normal map, which is to use the normalmap button. The other related button does the mesh simplification, but not the normal mapping. There is nothing that does the normal mapping but not mesh simplification.
You can however (with some work) extract the generated normal map from a high poly model and reapply it to a simplified mesh that you have made yourself by another means, if you don't like what the mesh simplification does.
Not sure why you are experiencing crashes there, do you have dumps, scene files to share, etc, so those can be investigated further?
Thanks!
Tom
EDIT - one of those threads where it seems like its new as only one post appears on your screen, but really there are a host of other replies hiding on another page :( Anyway the questions still seem to stand. Looks like the manual is in error, or badly worded at least. There is only one normal map generator in tS, as noted. I believe the manual should list the steps required to extract that normal map and apply it to another low poly mesh that was not made by the simplifier, which I think Jack is also describing here. This is the "second method" - no second button, just using the same tool, then abandoning the simplified mesh made automatically, and applying the normal map to any other mesh that you choose. I did have a detailed write up of this some place, but I can't seem to find it now, but see if Jack's write up does what is required :) END EDIT |
Post by prodigy // May 22, 2008, 6:35am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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I will show you how save your nomal maps.. i need few minutes to make a video. |
Post by Tiles // May 22, 2008, 6:57am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Now we are talking. Thanks guys :)
Mesh simplifying means destroying the topology. Not a good idea when you need edgeloops for animation. That's why i searched for the "second way", mentioned here ;)
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/exportnormalmap2.jpg
The manual part in question is Chapter 3:Modeling - Workspace, and here chapter 3.61, page 51, where you can read about the two methods.
Thanks for clarifying that there is just one method. No wonder i couldn't find the other :p
And thanks for the advice how to extact the normalmap. I will have a closer look tomorrow. This part seems more complicated than the whole rest by the way. So thanks in advance for the video prodigy :)
The crashes. Hum. Didn't dive deeper into it, and haven't tracked it down yet. Happens just random. No real way to reproduce. I have reported one crash in the bugs section, including the dumpfile. It randomly crashes to desktop without message when you hit the Undo button after normalmapping. And it randomly crashed when i tried to export the normalmap by this menu here.
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/exportnormalmap.jpg
I will keep an eye at it if i can track it down more clearly |
Post by prodigy // May 22, 2008, 7:00am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Here is very simple method to save your generated normal map as jpg, bmp etc..
** you can save your height map aswell, just link you height brick instead the normal map.
You can use this method to extract any texture from your scene.. ;)
**Divx needed |
Post by Tiles // May 22, 2008, 7:12am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Ah, that's tricky. Nice one and extremely useful. Many thanks :) |
Post by prodigy // May 22, 2008, 7:18am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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You're most welcome Tiles :) |
Post by Tiles // May 22, 2008, 7:24am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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And the result when trying to save the normalmap. Crashed in the moment when i selected export in the menu :p
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/exportnormalmap3.jpg
Let's try again ... |
Post by prodigy // May 22, 2008, 7:28am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Wierd...
Can you mail me your scene?? musikdoktor hot mail. |
Post by Tiles // May 22, 2008, 7:49am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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The second try worked, phew :)
There is a problem with Bitmap, Gimp and 32 Bit though ...
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/exportnormalmap4.jpg
And gave me another termination now when trying to save the scene LOL
Plus a little problem when reopeing TS. The bars in the spaghettihouse stays grey. I have to click at every single bar to let them reappear. Hmm. Back into bughunting :p :
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/exportnormalmap5.jpg
Please check your private message. No need to mail. I have PM'd you a downloadlink for the scene :) |
Post by prodigy // May 22, 2008, 7:56am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Roger that! :p
Must go to work! ;)
Seeya! |
Post by Ambrose // May 22, 2008, 8:39am
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Total Posts: 261
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Hi Tiles
Did you just get another crash in a non TS application ;) ???
Was it gimp or photoshop plugins...
Anyway and I'm sure you're aware of this since you got great technical skill and more but sometimes memory and videocards for example don't play along if wrong ones...
My last computer I bought cheap memories and man I regretted that...
this is not to make you upset just curious...
keep up all the good work!
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by TomG // May 22, 2008, 8:55am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Tiles, you seem to have particularly bad luck with tS, and as Ambrose mentions it might be something hardware related. I am at a loss for why it crashes so often on you, but not for others.
As an anecdote, my system had been unstable for a while, for instance sometimes defender would crash. I just put it down to the software. Then my graphics card died, and on getting a new card in there the whole system was now very unstable. First applications would just crash all by themselves, any part of windows, from explorer, to odd dlls. Then it just started blue screening.
Anyway, turns out it was memory timings. Normally I dont get into such tiny details, but as it happens, the memory timings in the BIOS make a huge difference, ranging from total blue screen instability, through to more insiduous small system instability, through to where I am now which is rock solid stability again.
My timings are slower than they ought to be (5-5-5-21 in place of 5-5-5-15), and for now I had to remove 1Gb out of the 4Gb (too happy to have stability dont want to get into messing more).
Anyway, the upshot was that no part of my hardware was 100% broken (well other than the graphics card failure I mean, but thats different!), and that it emerged as tiny amounts of instability rather than outright failure.
So there could be something in the hardware throwing things off just a little, enough to make apps unstable without actually making the machine fail to boot or run windows.
BTW, ASUS P5N-E SLI board with G-Skill 5-5-5-15 DDR2 800 memory in 1Gb sticks is my set up - it works, just needs tweaking in the memory timings!
Just in case it helps... do let us know how you get on with the normal mapping! And if any of this waffle proves at all useful!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jamesmc // May 22, 2008, 9:57am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Tell me about subtle, unseen changes in hardware.
It's why I'm typing from a brand new machine today.
Unknown reasons for warped areas in my motherboard, hotspots in other parts.
Weird stuff just happening with software. I defragged, ran registry scans and blah blah, re-installed windows, nothing worked.
I've come to the conclusion that a lot of problems I've experienced in the past were hardware and the software associated with that hardware. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 22, 2008, 10:31am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Keep in mind Tiles, that "Export" option only exports the *link* in the Link Editor up a level. It doesn't export a file. Export is used to make a Brick's property visible at the next higher LE level.
Ah slick video Prodigy! I didn't think to try the save as dialog on a normal map brick!
@Tom, I have the same board, and you need to raise the mem voltage to run 4 sticks in that board. I've got 6 Gig in mine right now, going to swap out the 2 1Giggers for 2 more 2GB GSkills to get me up to 8 Gig -- soon as I get a chance to put them in. ;) |
Post by TomG // May 22, 2008, 1:07pm
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TomG
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I'll look into that next - not touched voltages before, any guides to that any place? I dont want to do it wrong and fry things :)
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 22, 2008, 6:39pm
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Jack Edwards
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@ Tom, you're usually fine (within specs) up to 2.1 or so. I didn't have to bump mine up very much, and my crappy (Corsair) ram wouldn't even boot at the higher voltages, so you may have to pop the battery and clear the bios if you go too high. Depending on your ram and clockings, something in 1.9v range should be fine. Keep in mind that some ram, requires 2.2v or higher to work stable. So you may need to check the manufacturer voltage specs.
For changing the Voltages, it done just by changing values in the bios menu. Voltage mods no longer require soldering like in the old days... lol ;) |
Post by Tiles // May 22, 2008, 11:13pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Ah the good ol must be your system statement. How i missed it :p
My system is half a year old now. An AM2 with 2 gigs of ram, a geforce 8600 GT and XP as the OS. Not the fastest system, but it runs like charm with nearly everything i do. Up to the point where i open 7.51. And that was also the case at my old system. Ran like charm up to the point where i opened 7.51. And so i am pretty sure that it is TS, and not my systems.
Anyways. I know that random crashes are hard to catch. It can indeed be everything, including this special scene, that's why i have sent the scene to Beta testers now, and it can of course be the user's hardware. I cannot send in my hardware for a betatest unfortunately. I hope you understand it, hehe. But my hardware is very healthy from what i can say here. Every driver up to date too. Works with all other software without problems. No obvious quirks around. No bigger crashes with other software. Nothing that would show a problem with my system. It is really just TS having its funtime here.
I don't complain too much about the crashes here, i just document them at the moment. They happen to me as you can see at the shot. You don't have them it seems. Now let's find out what is going on. I will have a closer look at it and will do some tests now. I have the feeling that it could have to do with minimizing TS. And hope that i find a way to reproduce it. You will find a report in the bugs section then when i am able to ;)
Did you just get another crash in a non TS application ???
The Gimp has a plugin to run Photoshop plugins, called PSPI. This plugin is a bit old and long time not updated. So it doesn't work on all photoshop plugins. It is always trial and error to find out if it works or not. The Photoshop plugin simply doesn't work with PSPI as i found out now, and crashed it, which has shut down Gimp then ;)
But as told, i found the substitute for this plugin. The Gimp Normalmap Plugin is the nearly same to the Photoshop Normalmap Plugin. Just haven't thougt of telling here :)
http://nifelheim.dyndns.org/~cocidius/normalmap/
Keep in mind Tiles, that "Export" option only exports the *link* in the Link Editor up a level. It doesn't export a file. Export is used to make a Brick's property visible at the next higher LE level.
Ah, haven't know that. LE is still a book with seven seals for me most of the times. For me export means export the content out of the software. Thanks for that :) |
Post by W!ZARD // May 23, 2008, 12:24am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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An AM2 with 2 gigs of ram, a geforce 8600 GT and XP as the OS.
Hi Tiles - sorry to hear about your crashing problems. Interestingly your machine spaces are very similar to mine (AMD X2 4600+, 2 gigs of RAM, GeForce 8600 GT (512 mB) driving dual monitors, all running on XP. I'm regularly dealing with massive scenes, large textures and hi polycounts and I literally cannot recall the last time tS (or any other big app) crashed on me.
Admittedly I'm not using the tS Normal map features much - I use the GIMP Normal plug-in to generate normal maps - but I find tS, specially the workspace side, to be very stable.
Those GPU's use passive cooling - given that your tS is crashing and other apps don't it may suggest tS's heavy GPU use may be a factor - or something! As you know, I'm not a computer expert!;):D
HTH |
Post by Tiles // May 23, 2008, 12:59am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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... Those GPU's use passive cooling -
Mine works with air condition :D
I have even a second fan at the back to cool things down. And my PC side has holes which allows lots of air coming in. I regularly kill the dust bunnies at the cooling fins, and did exactly this before three days. Clean as a baby butt. So i somehow doubt that it is an overheating problem with a scene that contains a mesh with 4700 Tris and one with 9800 Quads. But yeah, who knows :)
It is simply too early to state what it is. All i can say is that i have trouble. But i cannot say what trouble exactly.
I had so far a crash with a created dump report. This one can be found in the Bugs section.
And i had several crashes to desktop without any warning, plus three Visual C++ runtime terminations. It can even be that these crashes has nothing to do with each other. As told, i have a feeling that minimizing TS could be involved here. That was something i did when i followed the video yesterday.
Testing ... :) |
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