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NURBS head
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
NURBS head // Work in Progress
Post by Alien // Feb 16, 2006, 5:32am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I figured I ought to get around to posting something, so I don't come across as purely a backseat trueSpacer. :D
This is what I'm working on at the moment. I don't want to say who it is or post the reference pics, as I'm hoping that as it improves someone might recognise it, though I realise it's got a long way to go before that. I'm not aiming for realism, more like a charicature. Oh, & I ought to say up front - as it progresses it may look a little like Splinters' current avatar, but I assure you that's not who it's intended to be. :)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/NURBS%20head%20001.png
I know it's got a long way to go, & yes I can spot some probs with it that I will get round to dealing with, it's just a WIP.
Still, not bad considering it's only 4 curves skinned so far, eh? :)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/NURBS%20head%20curves%20001.png
I saved it before skinning, then skinned it to see how it'd come out. |
Post by Steinie // Feb 16, 2006, 5:48am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Right away I see Abe Lincoln...the nose, the future beard, the money...do I win anything?
I can't wait to see who and what it will look like! |
Post by Alien // Feb 16, 2006, 5:54am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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LOL, sorry no. I will tell you though that this person is still alive.
1st person to correctly guess it gets repped, though as I don't have that many points myself yet you'll most likely only get 1 rep point [AFAIK with vBulletin, as you gain higher rankings you gain the ability to award more points per repping].
There's not much point in guessing yet, as it's got a long way to go - wait till I add the hair, & beard, & then you might have a better idea. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 16, 2006, 8:03pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Very interesting - at the risk of exposing my ignorance I must say I've never heard of modeling human forms with NURBS - point editing, mirror modelling and SDS seem to be the prefered methods. I'm interested to see how this pans out for you. |
Post by Ambrose // Feb 17, 2006, 10:15am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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W!zard just look back a couple of years and there were almost no other method.
Just look at this guy:
http://www.optidigit.com/galleries/galleries.htm
and what he did.
Finding ss tutorials back then where really rare and the same guy just started experiementing about ss at the same time Ts started to have them.
Although I love ss but and prefer that to nurbs but it all depends on what you're modeling...
If you want I can list some of that times best tutorials, could have vanished though, he were showing how he modilling, can't find that maybe it's there somewhere?
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 18, 2006, 3:35am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hey Ambrose - thanks for the link and the education:) .
However he modeled those models that's an artist with a great eye for composition and the nuances of posture. I think I'll stick to my cartoony characters for while yet |
Post by Alien // Feb 18, 2006, 12:50pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Very interesting - at the risk of exposing my ignorance I must say I've never heard of modeling human forms with NURBS - point editing, mirror modelling and SDS seem to be the prefered methods. I'm interested to see how this pans out for you.
Thanks, so am I. ;)
As for point editing, etc - I know those are the most common methods [especially in tS] for doing human forms, but they just don't feel right for me, particularly for heads. When it nears completion I may convert it to polys for some final tweaking, & I may use polys for bodies of other characters. If this 1 ends up having anything beyond the head, it'd only be down to the shoulders anyway, as it's just for putting in a photo by a bed in a scene.
Ambrose: I did look for tutorials for modelling a head with nurbs in tS, but to no avail, & when I widened the search so as to not be specific to tS I did find a few links, but none really seemed to be what I was looking for. Consequently, I'm pretty much figuring this out as I go along - finding a way that's right for me. The reason I haven't posted anything new yet is apart from having some non-tS stuff to do, I also had a bit of a think about my method & decided that it could be improved apon, but doing so requires starting from scratch, so I may well leave that till tomorrow.
Hey Ambrose - thanks for the link and the education:) .
ditto :)
However he modeled those models that's an artist with a great eye for composition and the nuances of posture.
Yeah, it's enough to give a guy an inferiority complex about his own 3D stuff... Oh, wait - I already had that, nevermind. :D
I think I'll stick to my cartoony characters for while yet
It's probably a good thing a lot of the stuff I intend to do will be of a cartoony nature then [comes from me being a big webcomic addict]. |
Post by e-graffiti // Feb 18, 2006, 5:52pm
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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Just wanted to share the link to the "classic" method of modelling a heading using NURBS. TS NURBS is capable of the same results as the tutorial:
http://www.3drender.com/jbirn/ea/HeadModel.html |
Post by Birdnest // Feb 20, 2006, 12:46pm
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Birdnest
Total Posts: 152
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I've had similair ideas for a head using NURBS and curves. But the results weren't very pretty....:eek: |
Post by e-graffiti // Feb 20, 2006, 3:15pm
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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TrueSpace has the all the "base" set of NURBS tools (ie loft, skinning, trim, blend, etc..) to create the general contours of a human body. Details like adding the eyelids and small details should be done by converting your NURBS to a polygon object. In more advanced NURBS modelling packages you can add more isoparms to "specific areas" to create things like eyelids. In TS it becomes more of a challenge to manage the details in specific areas with NURBS but it is possible. Prior to SubD using NURBS to create Humans was the way it was done. The issue with polygons is that high polygon counts are needed to make a smooth object so NURBS became popular, but NURBS presented the problem of creating those small details so the NURBS would be converted to polygons. SubD came along as the modelling technology to give you the smoothness of NURBS with the level of control of polygons. But to inspire you Alien the link below shows Humans modelled completely using NURBS:
http://www.3drender.com/models/models.htm |
Post by Alien // Jun 14, 2006, 2:11am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Back again to this topic, with a little bit of progress.
For anyone thinking of doing a head with nurbs & starting off the way I did, as previously shown in this thread... don't! Too much hassle. Also, don't try starting off with a nurbs sphere & then try removing the curves [or whatever you call them] from 1 side to get a nurbs hemisphere - again, too much hassle. Instead, I recommend right clicking the nurbs sphere to get the options & setting the End Angle to 180, & make sure Closed Arc is not turned on.
This is actually a different character, though for the same project. This 1 will be the main character & end up animated [hopefully!].
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/nurbshead2-wip.jpg
I sure hope we don't have to wait too long for the new player-side nurbs tools, as the old 1s can be a bit... unpredictable at times. Most of the time they do what they're supposed to do, but every now & then something weird will happen, but luckily undo usually sorts it, & I'm also saving fairly often just incase. |
Post by hemulin // Jun 14, 2006, 2:15am
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hemulin
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But to inspire you Alien the link below shows Humans modelled completely using NURBS:
http://www.3drender.com/models/models.htm
The link appears to be dead.:confused:
Actually it's not a wrong link, it's the link on the site that is wrong:
http://www.3drender.com/archives/index.htm |
Post by MadMouse // Jun 14, 2006, 9:00am
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MadMouse
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Good start Mr. Alien. Personally I hate NURBS. I've never been able to get along with the annoying things, call me old fashioned, but give me point edit every time. Youve got a good start going here. I'm looking forward to being able to post crits to your thread for a change :D Show some more soon please:)
Steve |
Post by Vizu // Jun 14, 2006, 11:39am
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Vizu
Total Posts: 628
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I don´t like it.
I belive it is impossible to make a real looking head with Nurbs.
Why you don´t make a perfect head with poly by poly ?
This is how the professionals work and TS Nurbs are good for play around but surely not for charactermodeling.
This is just my meaning about TS Nurbs.
Not a problem of youre competence. |
Post by Alien // Jun 14, 2006, 12:25pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Good start Mr. Alien. Personally I hate NURBS. I've never been able to get along with the annoying things, call me old fashioned, but give me point edit every time.
Thanks. You can do point edit with nurbs, sort-of - it's just different to poly point-editing. ;)
Youve got a good start going here. I'm looking forward to being able to post crits to your thread for a change :D Show some more soon please:)
I hope to be able to do so soon, but It's starting to look like I'm gonna have to wipe tS & reinstall from scratch as I've been having some probs [including losing a couple of hours work this afternoon, especially as a save got corrupted as well!]. Started off being weird, & progressed to either freezing or crashing. I'm guessing something's got corrupted, but it's not the default.ctx as I already tried deleting that & it still does it. :(
I don´t like it.
I belive it is impossible to make a real looking head with Nurbs.
It's got a long way to go yet, & if you'd looked at the links someone posted earlier in the thread you'd know that it is possible.
Why you don´t make a perfect head with poly by poly ?
I'm not sure I can properly express my reasons for this, but I would just rather use NURBS at the moment.
This is how the professionals work and TS Nurbs are good for play around but surely not for charactermodeling.
This is just my meaning about TS Nurbs.
Not a problem of youre competence.
I agree they're not perfect, & can be a bit quirky, but I think I made quicker progress with NURBS that I would with polys. Besides, some of that stuff that was linked to earlier in the thread looked better than some stuff I've seen done with poly modelling. :)
I may convert it to polys later, depending on how things go, but for now I'm sticking with NURBS. |
Post by Vizu // Jun 14, 2006, 10:10pm
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Vizu
Total Posts: 628
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Remember ! we talk about Truespace Nurbs.
Surely it will be possible to create a Nurbs char with Rhino 3D or a other good Nurbs modeler but not with TS.
Maybe you can turn my thinks when you have done your char but so long i have my doubt. :) |
Post by Alien // Jun 15, 2006, 2:24am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I'm not saying I'll stick with NURBS all the way to the end, but to me they just feel easier & more natural than the poly method, especially for getting the overall shape right. When I feel I can't go any further with NURBS, & need more detail, then I'll covert to poly & work from there.
When Caligari gets round to making the new NURBS tools, it would be awesome if they could give us something like T-Splines (http://www.tsplines.com/). http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/drool.gif |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 15, 2006, 9:41pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi Alien - good on ya for posting your WIP - I'll be very interested to see how you get on with your nurbs head. Like other posters here I've never really 'got' NURBS modeling though I know some folk swear by it. I'm like Madmouse in that I love Point Edit modeling. Particularly when combined with SDS I find I can get very precise organic shapes - NURBS seems to me to lack the precision I'm able to get otherwise (though this could simply be because I haven't figured out how to model precisely with NURBS).
If you find a good workflow and method I'm sure you'll be able to do great stuff so I'll be interested to see how your NURBS head project works out. |
Post by Alien // Jun 19, 2006, 3:30am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Hi Alien - good on ya for posting your WIP - I'll be very interested to see how you get on with your nurbs head.
Thanks, I've just started working on it again, now that I've sorted out the layout probs I was having, and [with some very helpful input from Stan] found a better way to get rid of the point edit widget. :) Not enough change yet to be worth showing another pic, just been doing some tweaking to sort out some iffy bits & get me back to where I was before I managed to lose a few hours work.
Like other posters here I've never really 'got' NURBS modeling though I know some folk swear by it. I'm like Madmouse in that I love Point Edit modeling. Particularly when combined with SDS I find I can get very precise organic shapes - NURBS seems to me to lack the precision I'm able to get otherwise (though this could simply be because I haven't figured out how to model precisely with NURBS).
If you find a good workflow and method I'm sure you'll be able to do great stuff so I'll be interested to see how your NURBS head project works out.
Well, as I said before, I started with a NURBS hemisphere, tweaked that a bit to get the proportions, then added some more curves [refine patch tool].
It's pretty simple once you get the hang of it. Like with poly point editing you can move single or multiple points at once, but with polys you need more points to get the same shape [unless you use SDS, but then from what I've seen you have to apply the SDS to see what it's going to come out like, with NURBS what you see is pretty much what you get].
As well as the standard point editing on NURBS, because a NURB is made of curves, you also get the ability to adjust their shape with handles, just like when drawing a poly curve. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/dunno.gif It just seems more intuitive to me, & all the extra vertices you'd have with polys would just be confusing for me - kinda like that saying, "can't see the wood for trees". |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 20, 2006, 1:42am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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[unless you use SDS, but then from what I've seen you have to apply the SDS to see what it's going to come out like, with NURBS what you see is pretty much what you get].
I find that after a while with SDS you can get a reasonable idea of what will happen when you further subdivide the mesh. Additionally I've hotkeyed the SDS icon so I can subdivide me mesh with one keystroke, look at the result and then CtrlZ back to the original mesh.
Your point about adjusting the shape of a NURBS curve with the handles is well made though. I guess it's just a question of personal preference at the end of the day. The mirror modelling ability available in point edit mode is pretty useful too |
Post by Alien // Jun 20, 2006, 3:43pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Your point about adjusting the shape of a NURBS curve with the handles is well made though. I guess it's just a question of personal preference at the end of the day. The mirror modelling ability available in point edit mode is pretty useful too
It's a good thing you mentioned mirror modelling. Soon after I read your post I decided to try it... & discovered it's a poly-only thing. :( "No problem" I say to myself, "I was planning on converting it to polys later on anyway". Or at least I was until I saw what it looked like when I converted it to poly. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/swear.gif
So now I'm trying the whole poly & SDS thing. I still started with a hemisphere, just a poly 1 this time, instead of NURBS. It just seems to make more sense than to start with a cube, quad divide it a couple of times, edit it a bit, then start with the SDS, which seems to be the way most tutorials go [at least the few I've seen]. I still miss the whole curve & handle thing of NURBS though. |
Post by stan // Jun 20, 2006, 4:11pm
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Alien..there is a nurb option to see the poly mesh on one of the nurbs options panel..can't remember which icon at the moment..
there are ways to mirror nurbs patches too..plugins.."nurbs symmetry" and the ck mirror xyz I think is the other..:confused: |
Post by Alien // Jun 21, 2006, 3:45am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Alien..there is a nurb option to see the poly mesh on one of the nurbs options panel..can't remember which icon at the moment..
there are ways to mirror nurbs patches too..plugins.."nurbs symmetry" and the ck mirror xyz I think is the other..:confused:
Thanks, I'll look into them at some point in the future, as I'd still like to explore the option of NURBS for head modelling. For now, I just want to get this head [& the rest of the project] done, & I think I'm getting the hang of poly & SDS.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/poly-head-001.jpg
Still needs a lot of work, that's just 1 of those temporary mirror weld jobbies. ATM I'm working on the nose, mouth, & chin. Then I've got to make the cheeks a bit bigger, do the eyes, sort the forehead out, & that's all before the ears & figuring out what to do with the hair [luckily for me, he keeps it fairly short :)]. |
Post by Délé // Jun 21, 2006, 4:44pm
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Délé
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So now I'm trying the whole poly & SDS thing. I still started with a hemisphere, just a poly 1 this time, instead of NURBS. It just seems to make more sense than to start with a cube, quad divide it a couple of times, edit it a bit, then start with the SDS, which seems to be the way most tutorials go [at least the few I've seen]. I still miss the whole curve & handle thing of NURBS though.The reason that most people start with a cube is to keep all quads. I usually start by applying one or two layers of SDS to a cube and then extracting the mesh. Then you have a fairly round shape with all quads to start with. If you have Triangles or N-sided polygons it can cause pinching and creasing. It's usually a good modeling strategy to try to keep all quads when SDS modeling to ensure predictable smoothing.
I really like SDS myself. It takes a while to get used to how it smoothes but I think that it usually produces good results. I think that you'll like it when you get more used to it. :)
I look forward to more updates. :) |
Post by Alien // Jun 22, 2006, 2:00am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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The reason that most people start with a cube is to keep all quads.
I usually start by applying one or two layers of SDS to a cube and then extracting the mesh. Then you have a fairly round shape with all quads to start with. If you have Triangles or N-sided polygons it can cause pinching and creasing. It's usually a good modeling strategy to try to keep all quads when SDS modeling to ensure predictable smoothing.
Yeah, I'd heard the whole "quads are good, tris & n-sided polys are bad, m'mkay" thing, & have been keeping an eye on that with this head.
As for that sub-divving the cube thing... why couldn't you have posted that a couple of days ago?!?! Damn! That looks so much neater than the standard primitive sphere. I'm trying hard to resist starting over from scratch with it, but I think I'll save it for my next head.
I really like SDS myself. It takes a while to get used to how it smoothes but I think that it usually produces good results. I think that you'll like it when you get more used to it. :)
I look forward to more updates. :)
<few hours later>
Well, I gave in, but I don't mind, as it seems easier to work on. I think I've already achieved more with this version than I did with the last, which took at least 3x as long. :) Thanks for the extremely useful tip! :cool:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/poly-head-002.jpg |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 24, 2006, 6:40pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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"If at first you don't succeed then try, try again!". If it's any consolation my friend I went through pretty much the same trial and error process myself with my first head models.
I guess this is where those who can afford Proteam membership and lots of tutorials have a 'head' start ;) on us. On the other hand when you and I finish a project we have the additional satisfaction of knowing we did it our own way and the reasons why we did it that way!
On the gripping hand, it's a case of what-ever works, works!!:D There is no such thing as rightand wrong, only different ways of being and doing.
Here is a suggestion you may find helpful. Use one of the lower-poly heads that come with the Facial Animator as a starting popint or a reference. It's well worth checking out the construction of those supplied heads for an insight into methods of building you own.
HTH
WZRD |
Post by GraySho // Jun 25, 2006, 3:54am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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There's an extremly good tutorial about headmodeling (and other body parts) at http://www.secondreality.ch. You should really try to match it step by step. |
Post by chrono // Jun 25, 2006, 4:45am
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Well since Alien finally decided to join the ranks of the SubD horde.
Here are 2 very excellent & very tradional tutorials:
http://mr2k.3dvf.net/tutorials/max/tutorials_joan.htm
http://www.nevercenter.com/tutorials/html_tutorials/user_tutorials/character_modeling/
You will have to adapt both of them to TS though because they often use tools TS doesn't have. Both are set-up so that it only takes 1 level of subd to produce fairly good results, though I do suggest smoothing to level 3. ;) Getting the Poly Tools plug-in is almost a must for this.
Also if you wanna actually do a NURB's human go and get the Ratner book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/047129229X/104-2730426-1315913?v=glance&n=283155
Disregard alot of the people who posted their reviews most of them wanted a 'how-to-build-the-perfect-human-3D-model' shortcut, were pretty ignorant of what they read, or thought that it was the program that makes a better character model. Besides it's a VERY cheap buy for having the entire character building process in it. I have the book and it's VERY solid. :) |
Post by Alien // Jun 25, 2006, 5:16am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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"If at first you don't succeed then try, try again!". If it's any consolation my friend I went through pretty much the same trial and error process myself with my first head models.
Heh :), thanks, I'm on the 3rd version of this head now, but I'm happier with the way it's going.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/poly-head-003.jpg
BTW, before anyone mentions it, yes his ears are that far back on his head. I had to double-check on several different photos, but they are indeed that far back.
I guess this is where those who can afford Proteam membership and lots of tutorials have a 'head' start ;) on us. On the other hand when you and I finish a project we have the additional satisfaction of knowing we did it our own way and the reasons why we did it that way!
The funny thing is, I haven't gotten round to watching most of them yet. I thought video tutorials would be more useful to me than they are. They're good for showing you new ideas & ways of doing things, but for a step-by-step thing I prefer written tutorials [PDF/html]. I wish there was an accompanying PDF version to go with the video turials. If there were it'd certainly make the decision to renew my membership easier.
On the gripping hand, it's a case of what-ever works, works!!:D There is no such thing as rightand wrong, only different ways of being and doing.
Very true. Through trial & error I seem to have found a way which seems to be working better for me so far than previous attempts, & whilst some of the tutorials people have linked to in this thread provide some useful tips, I'm not sure the overall methodology is right for me. Who knows, maybe if this turns out ok, maybe people will want to know how I did it. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/dunno.gif :)
Here is a suggestion you may find helpful. Use one of the lower-poly heads that come with the Facial Animator as a starting popint or a reference. It's well worth checking out the construction of those supplied heads for an insight into methods of building you own.
I'll certainly remember that if I get stuck again, thanks.
There's an extremly good tutorial about headmodeling (and other body parts) at http://www.secondreality.ch. You should really try to match it step by step.
Hmmm.. it does look interesting, but it's for a fictional female head, what I'm doing is a real male person. :) Thanks for the link though.
Well since Alien finally decided to join the ranks of the SubD horde.
Here are 2 very excellent & very tradional tutorials:
http://mr2k.3dvf.net/tutorials/max/tutorials_joan.htm
http://www.nevercenter.com/tutorials/html_tutorials/user_tutorials/character_modeling/
You will have to adapt both of them to TS though because they often use tools TS doesn't have. Both are set-up so that it only takes 1 level of subd to produce fairly good results, though I do suggest smoothing to level 3. ;) Getting the Poly Tools plug-in is almost a must for this.
I may already have that plugin , if not I'll certainly check it out. I'll have a look at those links later, thanks.
Also if you wanna actually do a NURB's human go and get the Ratner book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/047129229X/104-2730426-1315913?v=glance&n=283155
Disregard alot of the people who posted their reviews most of them wanted a 'how-to-build-the-perfect-human-3D-model' shortcut, were pretty ignorant of what they read, or thought that it was the program that makes a better character model. Besides it's a VERY cheap buy for having the entire character building process in it. I have the book and it's VERY solid. :)
Hmmm... Looks interesting. May have to wait a few weeks, but I may get it. Sadly it's not as cheap over here as it is over there [<$4 + shipping for a used 1, though I didn't bother to check what the condition was], but I checked the UK site & there's some used but in good condition copies for prices that aren't [i]too horrific. :) |
Post by Alien // Jun 26, 2006, 4:26pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Another minor update.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/poly-head-004.jpg |
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