Working between interfaces?

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Working between interfaces? // Tech Forum

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Post by tatts // Mar 1, 2009, 7:10am

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I've noticed that you can model in both the workspace and model views. My question is, If I start a project in the model space and want to add geometry from the workspace tools, For example like the use of the ADD EDGE LOOP tool. Will that in the end effect my model in anyway? I figure NO sinse really a vertex is a vertex no matter which side your in.


I was reading from someone's tutorial, and they suggested that wokring with objects for DARKBASIC Pro should done in the truespace6 area.


Using the mesh tools should'nt matter as long as I don't use the shaders, or any thing that is not compatible to DARKBASIC Pro and I use the correct exporter. does this sound right?

Post by RichLevy // Mar 1, 2009, 7:23am

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The answer is almost always no. When you run into problems is when you start to set up shaders and textures for your models. Geometry wise they are basically the same... ignoring Bridge issues that is.

Rich

Post by tatts // Mar 1, 2009, 7:47am

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Thank you rich. As far as the mesh, I did'nt think it would matter. just wanted to be sure. As far as the shaders, in Darkbasic they are added using .fx files. and the texturing I normally do outside truespace anyway.


It's just that I like some of the tools on the workspace side and it's nice to know that I can take advantage of those as well as the ones on the model side.


the model side does'nt seem to have the add edge loop tool, I remember using one in gamespace. I think it was a plugin though and can't remember where I got it from.

Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 2:25am

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The Bridge is included for this very reason, so you can move back and forth and use the tools on both side. "Model" is a bit of a misleading name, it should (I think, in retrospect) be called "Legacy", since it is tS6.6 embedded as a giant plug-in to enable access to legacy plugins, and some tools that don't exist on workspace yet, etc.


Anyway, there are some things to keep in mind. NURBS don't exist on the workspace, so you can't swap over and use workspace tools on a NURBS object. Each side has its own SDS system, so might be safest to remove SDS and work directly on the control cage.


Some other tools that are also "active" are the Mirror Modeler, and Booleans with history on the workspace side. Again, not really tried to see what happens if you model on the other side when an active tool is at work, so if you are using those, you may want to be sure to save and test what happens before doing it irrevocably!


Bones are completely different on both sides, but sounds like you won't be using those. I recommend the workspace side. I would avoid doing any Model geometry changes with a workspace skeleton attached, again unsure of the effects (don't attach skeleton until all Model side work is done is the best recommendation, though you can test and see if it works of course).


Textures however are indeed the most likely to suffer on the moving back and forth from one side to another, but as you say that won't be an issue for you so you'll avoid the most awkward situations that the Bridge can create.


HTH!

Tom

Post by tatts // Mar 2, 2009, 8:48am

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Hi TomG, its been a little while sinse I last said hi from the gamespace forums. :) well used to be gamespace forums. lol


Anyway thanks for the reply. I only learned yesturday the concept between the two interfaces of TS. i guess I did'nt read enough before on this transition to fully understand what was going on with it. Now that I do I can say that I think it was a very smart idea to move over like this. specially when the workspace does not contain all the old functions as ts 6.6 does.

I guess you could say that the ts users have the best of both worlds for the time being sorta speak.


As for my question, Yes I plan mainly to do just poly modeling between to two sides. As for nurbs, I hardly ever use them so I guess im good there.


as far as UV mapping and texturing, I normaly use Ultimate Unwrap for the UV. and I use gimp/texture maker/blacksmith 3d and darkshader for textures.


Animation wise, I do know that DARKBASIC Pro now has support for the skeleton and animation from the workspace side. but right now I don't have much of a clue on how to use it. For the longest time I was using Gamespace for animation because of the puppiteer plugin. that was until I found Character fx on the net for free. I then moved to that because of its ease of use and have been using it sinse. However I do have plans to learn the animation on the workspace side. Just not sure where to start with it.


The last time I tried to set up animation in both truespace and gamespace on one of my lamborghini's I had a hard time with it. It seemed every time I tried to animate the doors to open my geometry would get all messed up. I Always seem to have a hard time with mechanical animations. Weird to me, you would think it would be the other way around that organic animations would be harder.

Post by JimB // Mar 2, 2009, 9:20am

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The last time I tried to set up animation in both truespace and gamespace on one of my lamborghini's I had a hard time with it. It seemed every time I tried to animate the doors to open my geometry would get all messed up. I Always seem to have a hard time with mechanical animations. Weird to me, you would think it would be the other way around that organic animations would be harder.



Hi tatts if you make your door(s) a seperate object and adjust its axis so that it will pivot in the desired direction then glue it all should work ok.

Anyway wheres that Dino :)



Jim

Post by tatts // Mar 2, 2009, 10:06am

tatts
Total Posts: 145
Heeey JimB How are ya? Thanks for the tip! I did have a seperate door, I positioned the limb where i thought it would work. BUT I did'nt glue the door to the limb. I just assigned the verts to the joint and bone. Is that the Problem there you think?


"Anyway wheres that Dino?" LMAO....I completely forgot about that thread. The Gamespace forums are no longer up. Do you have a thread here for them? or on the gamecreators site? If so I'd be more than happy to still model one up.

Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 10:34am

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Hmm you wouldnt use bones for an animation like that, just pure hierarchical animation. Any reason why you wanted to take the bones approach?


Thanks!

Tom

Post by JimB // Mar 2, 2009, 11:04am

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Anyway wheres that Dino?" LMAO....I completely forgot about that thread. The Gamespace forums are no longer up. Do you have a thread here for them? or on the gamecreators site? If so I'd be more than happy to still model one up.


No forget it I think we will leave that topic to echo around the old gameSpace forum archives where ever they may be.


Jim

Post by JimB // Mar 2, 2009, 11:08am

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[quote=TomG;95965]Hmm you wouldnt use bones for an animation like that, just pure hierarchical animation. Any reason why you wanted to take the bones approach? [quote]


I think it may have to do with possible exporting to DarkBasicPro although I'm sure DBP supports Hierarchy animation ,anyway thats what I assumed tatts was going to use.



Jim

Post by tatts // Mar 2, 2009, 11:38am

tatts
Total Posts: 145
I used a skeleton because I use my vehicles with darkphysics, rather NVIDIA PHYSX. which requires the use of limbs. so I though that maybe the doors needed to be animated using the skeleton sinse the body, wheels and suspension needs the skeleton/limbs for darkphysics.


personally I figure I probably could get away with animating the door without the skeleton and just use the skeleton for the parts that are going to be manipulated by the physX engine. but i've never tried this yet.


Hierarchy animation? I take it that is WITHOUT using limbs? Pretty much everything I've needed to animate so far I used limbs.

Post by JimB // Mar 2, 2009, 11:43am

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Since I know nothing about darkphysics I must bow out. :D



Jim

Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 12:07pm

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Why would you need physics is my question now? :)


Physics is used when an animation is unpredictable, and must change in response to an infinite number of possible variables - is there a box in the way blocking it, has it been shot, did someone push it and how hard, etc?


For most animations like the opening of a door, this is prescripted - the animation plays out the same no matter what. So you simply make the animation "hard coded" into the object as a set of pre-existing keyframes, no limbs or skeletons or physics involved (though that depends on your animation system - I recall in DarkBASIC though making a radar rotate just by regular hierarchical animation, I'm pretty sure).


You simply record keyframes so the animation plays in tS - record door closed at keyframe 0, move to keyframe 30, rotate door to open position just using the regular object rotate functionality in tS, and record the keyframe, and you are done.


You could record other animations too. Then in your game engine you simply "trigger" the playback of the animation, sometimes as a whole animation, sometimes you can specify "now play back frames 0 to 30, now play back frames to 130 to 150". In this way, you could play back different animations, eg left door opens, or right door opens, etc.


It is generally easier to set up and use, and lighter on the CPU too since you don't have to call physics, you just call very simple pre-made animations.


HTH!

Tom

Post by JimB // Mar 2, 2009, 12:23pm

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For most animations like the opening of a door, this is prescripted - the animation plays out the same no matter what. So you simply make the animation "hard coded" into the object as a set of pre-existing keyframes, no limbs or skeletons or physics involved (though that depends on your animation system - I recall in DarkBASIC though making a radar rotate just by regular hierarchical animation, I'm pretty sure).




Was it this one Tom ? :D

I was making it for FPSC so it might have been this one "GSRadarc"

Post by tatts // Mar 2, 2009, 12:53pm

tatts
Total Posts: 145
Just the body/wheels and suspension are manipulated by the physics. The doors I wanted just regular animation on them and have nothing to do with the physics at all. As I said at the time I figured that sinse every thing else needed the limbs why not the doors too. So that was the route that I took. and of course it did'nt work out the way i'd hoped.


Again I figured that I could just use the skeleton for the parts that I needed, body/wheels/and suspension and leave the other animation to how you just described it. But I have never tried that yet because I was'nt sure if that was how it needed to be done. So when I found Character fx, I set up my model with the same idea as I did with TS by having a limb for the doors and it worked out fine. sinse then I havent paid much mind to doing it any other way.


Well that was until this past weekend, when I tried again to setup a different vehicle using the same idea and it failed. the doors got all messed up. up unitl now, the lamborghini I made is about the only thing that is mechanical that I've tried to animate and I havent had to many problems with that one. Other than that everything I've ever animated was organic and used a skeleton. lol

Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 1:37pm

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Total Posts: 3397
That's a nice radar dish! I was thinking of a little spaceship I made, and loaded into DarkBASIC, many many years ago now, I was investigating how possible it was to bring tS / gS content over into the application. Didn't look nearly as good as that dish there though :)


There is no right nor wrong in animation, and if you need skeletons etc anyway then perhaps it would be necessary to rig everything that way, and if it worked well that's all that is needed! Not familiar enough with all of how DarkBASIC handles things- with tS you would "attach object to bone", with no skinning (so not "attach skin to skeleton") but then perhaps that kind of attachment is not supported by DB, perhaps why it exploded. It would be a tricky way to set up for a door animation though, overall, but again if it worked in the end.


The old bones system was prone to flying apart on being reloaded, I remember having to just pose a hand using it, and having heck of a time :( The new bones system is much friendlier though.


HTH!

Tom
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