Skeleton weirdness

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Skeleton weirdness // Tech Forum

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Post by W!ZARD // Sep 27, 2008, 11:41pm

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I have a model of a dragon I made in tS. He's rigged with over 80 bones and he responds beautifully to posing with the skeleton - I can put him any where I want him.


But (and there is so often a but!) devastating things occur when I key frame his first pose. The keyframe appears to get recorded OK but when I move to another frame parts of his mesh tear away from the skeleton and those parts become unposable :( :mad:, sad smileys and angry smileys don't come close to expressing how I feel about this - we need an utterly fed up smiley!


But enough about my emotional states - is this known behaviour? Is there any work around? has anyone else had similar experiences?


As most of you know I love trueSpace but once I've attached my mesh to a skeleton it really needs to remain attached otherwise the model becomes posable but not animatable.


I've been telling people all over the net how great tS bones are based on the success I've had posing this dragon at frame zero - it's just embarrassing :o that I can't actually animate it.


Any comments or insight appreciated


TIA


WZRD

Post by hultek43 // Sep 28, 2008, 12:38am

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"He's rigged with over 80 bones "
Wow. that's a lot. Although we've had bones available since version 4.3, I usually run into problems long before that number ;-). I wish I had a soloution for you.

Post by Tiles // Sep 28, 2008, 1:38am

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I think i have seen this behaviour before. Hmm, have you set a default pose? When the default pose fails (and it unfortunately fails here and there) can't you copy an intact keyframe and go on with posing at this intact keyframe?

Post by RichLevy // Sep 28, 2008, 5:11am

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I "think" this has something to do with BVH animation, I thought that frame zero needed to be a default "T" pose. Mr. Bones would know better about this, I am going back into my very cobbed webbed out memory for that littel tid-bit.


Rich

Post by trueBlue // Sep 28, 2008, 7:30am

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Have you tried "Heal skin" as well?

Post by W!ZARD // Sep 28, 2008, 9:57pm

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@Tiles - yes I've tried it with both setting a new default pose, using the existing default pose and not setting a default pose. First keyframe records OK but as soon as I move along the time line the wings rip from the skeleton and his eye shoot out of his head!


@RichLevy - no BVH files involved here - this mesh and skeleton were made by me in tS.


@trueBlue - I hadn't tried heal skin but have now done so - same result. Even Undo (Ctrl z) cannot retrieve the start condition.


So, I'm stuck now and won't be able to enter an award winning animation in time for the next Caligallery:(.


So my question is - is this a problem with the mesh? is this a problem with my workflow? Is this degree of skeletal complexity simply beyond tS? Should tS be able to handle keyframing this model? Is this a problem with tS in general (ie a bug) or is it a problem with my PC or my tS installation?


Any advice suggestions comments from Caligari etc would be most appreciated. Please!


Attached is a pic of the dragon as I've imported him from the library. Second is him after I've altered his pose and recorded a KeyFrame at frame 0. Last is the result of moving to frame 1 - I've shown it with DynaPose activated to show the skeletons position (which is the same as in the second pic.


I spent months building texturing rigging and weight-painting this puppy - if I can't animate him I am going to cry!!!:(:(

Post by W!ZARD // Sep 29, 2008, 1:44am

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Further tests have shown tS is not responding as it used to.


I made a simple cylinder, stuck in a 3 boned skele and attached the cylinder to the Skeleton.


In Dynapose I was able to deform the skele with the bones as one would expect.


I then make a keyframe at frame 0 to create a base track as recommended in the manual.


I then create another Anim track, move down the time line a few frames and attempt to record a second KeyFrame and tS crashes.


I've sent a crash dump report to Caligari.


In the meantime I've attached the scene - perhaps someone would like to load it up and see if they can record keyframes.


In the meantime, I tried a re-install of tS to no avail. Any suggestions at all would be gratefully appreciated.

Post by Tiles // Sep 29, 2008, 2:18am

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Let`s hope for IK2 ...

Post by Finis // Sep 29, 2008, 6:39am

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I spent months building texturing rigging and weight-painting this puppy - if I can't animate him I am going to cry!!!:(:(


I understand your frustration. That is what happend to me with my elf movie. http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=4535


I thought I read some where to put the first key frame at frame one. I'm not at all sure about that but maybe someone else knows about it.


I don't have time to make TS pictures and certainly not movies right now but when I do I won't even try to use TS for character animation.


I will use it (even if it is TS 5 or 6) for modeling which it does well. I'll watch for future releases to include fully functional character animation where the number of bugs, instabilities, and strange behaviors that need troublesome work-arounds, if even possible, are very few.


Hmm, guess I don't have time for forum surfing either. Back to work.

Post by W!ZARD // Sep 30, 2008, 5:48pm

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Helloo... testing 1,2,3 is this thing on?


I need some help here and sooner rather than later please - deadlines and promises to keep and all that.


Can someone from Caligari please respond here.

Post by notejam // Sep 30, 2008, 7:24pm

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I suppose you made the character in model side, and then moved to 7.6 to animate it?


If so, did you glue the parts of the skeleton together BEFORE you add bones.

And did you add bones in the workspace side?

I have had trouble with bones made in model side, and then going to workspace. I have never got it to work. Always have to build a skeleton in workspace side if animating in workspace for me so far.


And that might be another problem, could it be you have old bones present but not working from workspace side, plus additonal bones in workspace side?


Follow this rule and I think it will clear up your problems. Always make skeleton in same side as animation. Always glue up a skin first, and then build a skeleton in the skin and do so in same side as your going to animate.


Another thing, the default settings for the joints in model side are awfull. They only allow a small amount of movement, think it was about 30 degrees of movement. So when your attempting to set up your animation. click on those joints, and also display the panel tab next to library tab, so you can adjust the allowed joint movement to greater than the allowed truespace 7.6 default range for joint movement.


Also consider where you have locks. A lock is best placed on the hips of human figures, as then you can adjust arms and legs, and head. But if you need to move the hips, disable the lock, and put one else where.

With the pose tool you pull on a limb or what ever against the lock, so you need to find good places to put the lock.


On animals, a lock on the midriff area, allows you to adjust position of the rest of the creature, such as legs, arms, ears, antenna, etc.

And do not have lots of locks, or you will not be able to adjust much if any movements of limbs, etc.


Try use of reset tool icon which is located in column 5 of the tool icons at bottom of screen if you have not dragged them to some other place. Its usually right below the model side tool icons, where x,y,z icons are.


You can glue up a bunch of objects (skin) in model side, and then go to workspace side add skeleton and animate ok, that has worked fine for me.


I have not looked at your file yet, so maybe I will have a different opinion after I check it out.


Hope this helps

Post by notejam // Sep 30, 2008, 7:36pm

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Further tests have shown tS is not responding as it used to.


I made a simple cylinder, stuck in a 3 boned skele and attached the cylinder to the Skeleton.


In Dynapose I was able to deform the skele with the bones as one would expect.


I then make a keyframe at frame 0 to create a base track as recommended in the manual.


>>>>You make no mention of recording a second keyframe, so you only had a keyframe at 0, but no place else for the track? That would mean you have no animation for that track. You need a starting keyframe and an ending keyframe in order to create a track, and those keyframes must not be at the same time on the time line.



I then create another Anim track, move down the time line a few frames and attempt to record a second KeyFrame and tS crashes.


>>>>Create both start and end keyframes on any tracks you make, instead of just start keyframes.


I've sent a crash dump report to Caligari.

>>>>Good, does not seem like it should of crashed, even though it sounds like your not entering an animation clip that starts at a frame, and ends at a frame.


In the meantime I've attached the scene - perhaps someone would like to load it up and see if they can record keyframes.

>>>> I find clicking on the storyboard and then recording keyframes is the easy way to go. Not all the confusion that the other tabs offer as options.


In the meantime, I tried a re-install of tS to no avail. Any suggestions at all would be gratefully appreciated. >>>>try doing a reset with use of reset icon located in column 5 at bottom of screen (unless you moved it elsewhere)


If its not there, click on default word at top of screen, and then go look for it.











They will not let me post this without adding a sentence below the quote, lol.

So this is just to trick that and get this posted

Post by notejam // Sep 30, 2008, 8:09pm

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Wizard, Your file when loaded only displays a cylindar. I think your not making use of the library to save load or export import files? How are you saving your scene files, I mean what menu are you making use of?


If you made a model in model side, glue it up in model side, or put it together in workspace, add a skeleton in workspace only, and then go to your library menu and save it in characters/ not scenes, its not a scene. (A scene is more like a setup, like maybe background, house, land, sky, trees, etc.)


A character is usually what you will animate, but maybe at times a scene will have an animation, and if it does, you most likely will have to create that part of the scene as a character with a skeleton.)


Ok lets say you made your character as I described and added skeleton in workspace after first putting parts together as a skin.

Then to save it, you select it first, and then right click on the grey area in characters, which allows you to insert it into the library, or choose export as a file. Use export if you want to upload it later.


Give it another try at getting the file inserted into library, and then exported as a file and upload that file and I will see if I can spot any problems with it.


Never mind me, I am too sleepy, and just realized I confused the cylinder file with the dragoon file. yipes!

will see if I can animate the cylinder, and let you know another day after I get some z's

Post by notejam // Sep 30, 2008, 8:31pm

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Wizard, your cylindar can be animated ok, its just fine. You made the skeleton and model just fine. But, your joints are set to move only about 34 degrees, whcih is not much with the dynapose tool. I think Calgari should change the default joint range to maybe 120 and then let the user decide how far they move an object, or if they want to narrow the joint range down.

The default joint range like I said, is just awfull. Can not do much with it so you need to adjust the range to a better range.

To do that, click on panel tool so you can see settings. Click on the joint limit tool. Now all the settings for that joint appear in the panel view.

Look where it says spread, and you will find it set to about 34. Change 34 to 120 or what ever you want, to allow lots of movement. Just experiment by setting it, and then use of the dynapose tool to see if its satisfactory or needs more range.


When you find what range is satisfactory to you, click on each joint in the skeleton with the joint limit tool, and change the settings in the panel that appears for that joint, in panel view.


Since you have no lock, the figure is most easily moved on its joints by clicking on a joint, and use the widget to move/rotate on the joint. Record a key frame. Move entire figure else where, reposition and adjust joints, and record next key frame, repeat this for how many key frames you want.

remember to drag the time line indicator to the next place you want to record the keyframe, for each keyframe you will record, before you record the keyframe, or you will just record over some other keyframe you made, and never advance in time on the time line, and thus never make an animation.


Use the storyboard for recording the animation.




Yawn,

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, night, snore, snore

Post by W!ZARD // Sep 30, 2008, 11:43pm

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Aw Notejam - thanks for putting in so much effort to help. Sadly I'm not sure that is does help though:( - at least I don't feel quite so ignored though!:D


Firstly, I almost never use the model side these days. The dragon was made and rigged in Workspace only.


The dragon itself is poseable and everything acts as it should until I record a Keyframe. The time line shows the KeyFrame as expected. All is good to this point. Next I move along the time line so I can create the next pose and record that keyframe - but as soon as I try to move along the timeline the dragon mesh tears away from the skeleton and will not go back.


At the same time recording (or at least trying to record) a second keyframe on a second anim track causes a crash.


Following "Norms Law" - always try to reproduce the problem with the simplest possible scene - I made the cylinder and 3 bone skeleton to test my set-up (which is why the joints are still at their default movement range settings).


As with the dragon I was able to pose the test cylinder and record an initial KeyFrame - any attempt to record a second keyframe elsewhere on the timeline caused tS to Crash. This suggested to me that the problem lay with the animation editer rather than the modeling.


I reinstalled ts witjh no change then I deleted the Default.ctx file and started tS again. This appeared to fix the crash on second feyframe but did not fix the problem with the dragon wing ripping away from the skeleton.


I realise this is a complex skeleton and I don't know if there are any practical limits to the degree of complexity tS skeletons can handle.


In fact I don't know if anyone has even tried to use a skeleton of this size with tS! Which is why I was hoping Caligari or one of the developers who worked on the skele system may be able to offer some comment.

Post by Weevil // Oct 1, 2008, 12:00am

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Judging from your screenshots you were doing this in workspace correct? Have you tried doing this animation modelspace? Maybe if you do that you might get some results. It's not secret that I'm not a fan of 7.6 so my judgement may be a little clouded, but in this case...

If you've still got a lower version of kicking around maybe try saving a TS 6.6 model and bringing it in and trying it there. If it still doesn't work then you may have to delete the rig itself (or copy it) and attach it again. But then, you've said about how it doesn't work for more or less everything.

That' all I can come up with atm. Sorry man

Post by W!ZARD // Oct 1, 2008, 12:18am

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Judging from your screenshots you were doing this in workspace correct? Have you tried doing this animation modelspace? Maybe if you do that you might get some results. It's not secret that I'm not a fan of 7.6 so my judgement may be a little clouded, but in this case...


If you've still got a lower version of kicking around maybe try saving a TS 6.6 model and bringing it in and trying it there. If it still doesn't work then you may have to delete the rig itself (or copy it) and attach it again. But then, you've said about how it doesn't work for more or less everything.


That' all I can come up with atm. Sorry man



Thanks for the suggestion Weevil but I've used the old bone system before - I don't want to go there again, specially with a big rig like my dragon.


Going back to the 'old' side now I'm used to the 'new' side would feel like going back to black and white TV after getting used to colour!

Post by Weevil // Oct 1, 2008, 12:25am

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You mean you don't use modelspace at all? Where do you get all of your tools from? (as an off topic note)

As for on topic. I can still use ts 6.6 without problems. This may not be the best solution for you but if you pm me with the model (providing it's a 6.6) I could import it in, and animate the model, just moving the arm or the wings and then render him.

If it still plays 'the silly buggers' in 6.6. Then it may be the model, but if it don't, then we know it's the program. Or failing that you may have to save multiple versions. And delete the bones of some parts that won't really move to reduce the bone count.

Post by Tiles // Oct 1, 2008, 7:29am

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Hmm, in case it is really a problem that the skeleton is too complex for IK1, have you tried to delete bones and have a look if it works then?


To delete the bones, click the Shape Skeleton tool, then choose a joint, then click at the Delete selected Joint button. The reason is when you select a bone and delete it directly you may end with lots of joints in the Scene View.

Post by RichLevy // Oct 1, 2008, 9:59am

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You have to be careful at this point also, deleting a joint will destroy the weight painting for that bone also. I am trying to remember if than that bone is not able to be weighted again... I went thru a big session with this a couple of months back when TS 7.6 was released, than decided to wait for a future version.

I would "Seriously" consider a new skeleton with less bones, even for now do a skeleton with no wings, save the skeleton before you attach it to the dragon and than test that fully. If you can get that to work, than try to add wings (to the rig you saved in the library) make the wings simple though, force yourself to limit it to the bare min.
If you get that to work, than add more parts to it till it breaks again, than you know you went too far. (remember though you will have to start fresh with the new saved skeleton each time or a skeleton that was not used previously)

Trial and error it is. (bigger is not always better :) )

Rich

Post by noko // Oct 1, 2008, 2:36pm

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W!ZARD,


Recommend you unattach mesh from skeleton and see if you can keyframe the skeleton without the mesh. Troubleshooting.


If skeleton has problems with keyframing, then maybe start deleting skeleton sections until you find problem area.


If skeleton keyframe just fine then I recommend you attached cylinders, or cubes (doesn't matter) to each bone, for close bones maybe a single cube or cylinder with alot of divisions. See if you can key frame that.


Another note is bone envelopes are combined with weight painting, so you might want to experiment with bone envelopes with your current object which you shouldn't loose your weight painting but it will modify overall effect.


You may have reached IK1 limit with the number of bones, using two skeletons (from what I understand 7.6 will support multiple skeletons in a mesh) or three for each major section may do the trick maybe, I don't know but maybe worth a quick shot for success.


Wish you luck.

Post by RichLevy // Oct 1, 2008, 3:21pm

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W!ZARD,

R

You may have reached IK1 limit with the number of bones, using two skeletons (from what I understand 7.6 will support multiple skeletons in a mesh) or three for each major section may do the trick maybe, I don't know but maybe worth a quick shot for success.

Wish you luck.

1 skeleton only, you can use a trick they call invisible bone that allows you to use one skeleton but branch off a joint chain that is seperate from the other section and will work as a seperate skeleton... kinda like that anyway

I agree the 80 bones is pushing what IK1 can do anyway... the most complex rig I had was just a single batwing, that had some 20 or more bones to it (1 single wing).

Rich

Post by W!ZARD // Oct 1, 2008, 5:23pm

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You mean you don't use modelspace at all? Where do you get all of your tools from? (as an off topic note)



LOL - pretty much! I use Model side when I want to render using LightWorks. Other than that I very occasionally cross the bridge to use the Model side Axis tools because I can set the axis using the Object Info box. The axes can be set easily enough visually in Workspace but sometimes the accuracy of numeric entry is worth crossing the bridge. The only other model side tool I really miss is the Bend Tool and the occasional NURBS object.:D


@RichLevy - Re: "(bigger is not always better )" - LOL - it is when you are a dragon!! But a good point all the same.


@Noko - thanks man - some excellent suggestions there! I had put so much work into the vertex weights and everything that the dragon really poses beautifully - thus i was reluctant to rebuild any of those bits. Anyway, I've since commenced a rebuild - I'll try less bones and also try subskele's.


I'll let you all know how I get on.


Thanks for the input and the excellent suggestions!:D


I've come so far with this guy I'm not quite ready to give up on him just yet!


~W~
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