|
|
Extended IK/FK Handles
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Extended IK/FK Handles // Tech Forum
Post by Electric Jim // Feb 2, 2009, 12:25pm
|
Electric Jim
Total Posts: 98
|
Hey, guys. Here's an old forum page in which I included some annotated screen grabs of the problem in which locks appear to break for no reason, and the character sort of "floats" between keyframes:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6310&page=4
This is a very simple example of the fundamental problem I find with IK, in which my character's pose matches up correctly at the keyframes but takes positions that it should not, at the in-between frames. (I see that on page 2 of that forum, I included a little simplified example scene with just a few cubes attached with a simple skeleton.) Re-glancing at the forum, I see that things appeared somewhat better if some handles that should have been unnecessary were included, but even then I still saw movement on bones which should have been completely locked in place. |
Post by Stem // Feb 3, 2009, 3:31am
|
Stem
Total Posts: 199
|
Hello Tom,
An example could then be used in the current beta version to see if the problem is remedied, improved but not complete, still the same, etc. Always good to have an example of your particular problem, rather than a general description, as then specific tests and comparisons can be done.
HTH!
Tom
So have the 2 examples I posted 6 months ago been looked at? I see little point in taking time to create and post more examples if the first are not even checked and then either confirmed as bugs, or that the problem cannot be reproduced and so more examples are needed.
The examples I posted take only a few minutes to set up and check, and as you can see, those reports are from 6 months ago. (they may of been ignored then, but I do not want them ignored now)
The current replies I am receiving on the issue of the locks is like this problem as never been seen or reported before.
- Steve |
Post by TomG // Feb 3, 2009, 4:42am
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
Hello Stem,
We don't report on beta activities here in the public forum. Posting your bugs with an example is the way to feed information into the beta process, but unless you are a beta tester, information is not fed back out. Posting more examples is always useful, but if you want to or not is your choice, but I wouldn't expect feedback on these forums as to what is happening in beta with any examples you post.
Best regards,
Tom |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 3, 2009, 5:19am
|
Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
|
This post is a whopper, but it's my way to try and stay positive, and keep hanging in there!
I still appreciate all the hard work the devs and beta testers are doing and have done in the past. With a bit of luck the testing of the upcoming patch will result in a much more stable and solid rigging system than that of the current version. Better slow and thorough testing than quick and superficial, in my view.
My "take" on Character anim/rigging in TS is that whilst it is a fledging toolset within an otherwise very strong package, it could open the door to a whole new set of users and skillset. Currently we see many many examples of static high quality artwork, I would like to see that expanded to include animated character artwork and all the skills, enjoyment and creativity that that unlocks.
Interestingly when I did a forum search there appears to be a hard core of would be character animators, still waiting in the wings. It is a pity that the delay has already caused the departure of at least one avid character animator from the TS fold. However like me the sheer length of wait is sapping enthusiasm of even the most hardy.
It is my hope that once the upcoming patch stabilises and hopefully refines rigging, ik, limits, locks etc and that finally the number of character animators within TS will start to enlarge as users and non users alike see what TS is capable of in this field.
I find it worrying that despite the numberous threads/ examples etc dating back to last August, and the considerable amount of input from users, with examples, vids and written experiments highlighting gremlins given, even now examples are being asked for. Does this mean that after 6 months the patch in progress is still considered potentially unstable on the character rigging/anim side?
As a quick ref to some of the gremlins I am aware of, needing some stabilisation I include a few links to various indepth threads that highlight examples of problems encountered. Hope this helps.
Threads with examples... quick ref
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6310 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6310)
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6359 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6359)
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6318 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6318)
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6087 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6087)
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6119 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6119)
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6089 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6089)
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6255 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6255)
Here is a reminder of a few anim related tweaks/improvements, that I believe would help. These are all posted on the feature request forum, but I believe are worth mentioning again as positive encouragement to the devs and beta testers. Perhaps some of them are too major to be included in a patch, but I have included them as part of my wishlist anyway.
-------------------
If a joint is selected in 3D it should ideally also be selected in Fcurve window.
---
Auto scaling of Fcurve window as it's too slow to keep right mousing, or typing numbers. Keep the manual option, but make default auto.
---
Scrollable fcurve channel list using the mouse scroll wheel or user hotkeys
---
Ability to quickly and easily kf only specific axis for rotation/translate/scale. Far too many static channels created at the minute.
---
A one button "remove static KF channels" ability.
---
Currently when I pose a rig I have options for movement which include one mouse button that controls in X&Y, either local to joints or world. Sometimes this gives inadvertant movement in say the x axis when I only want to move in purely Y axis. Is it possible to add the additional control options of x direction for one mouse button and Y axis for the other button (both in local and world)
---
Would be helpful if when in weight paint mode dragging the brush over an IK handle could NOT drag the IK and re-pose the model.
---
The ability to move joint pivot points anywhere in 3D and the ability to include snapping them to other joints. The same goes for offsetting the actual IK handle from the joint it is origonally assigned to
---
In the default state keyframes at frame 0 are crammed up against the left edge of window, difficult to select, without expressly adding minus frames.
---
Scroll bar for the window displaying matrix/ skeleton etc, is too narrow and fiddly, what about making that window scrollable with mouse scroll wheel?
---
Auto scale an Fcurve in the window based on the max min values of the selected curve's amplitude
---
Selecting any part of a limb or an associated Ik handle in the 3D window, the limb is highlighted/selected in the Fcurve heirarchical window
---
In the Fcurve editor a quick way to remove all zero movement curves
---
When using FK when I try to rotate a joint using the widget it's all too frequent to inadvertantly select another joint or bone (in the background) instead of selecting the widget rotate arc thingy. Can widgets be given some sort of selection priority over bones or joints?
---
When weight painting sometimes there are verts with very minimal weights and which it would be nice to be able to remove easily. A very useful tool which I believe I saw in Maya? was a spreadsheet of the model's verts and their weights. I found it very quick and simple to be able to set a minimum weight threshold, click a button and all verts below my chosen level were zeroed. Fast, simple and very effective.
New character related feature requests
Constraints.
IE
Look at, Copy location,copy rotation, Copy Scale, Track to, Follow path, Floor constraint, Parent, child, sibling
I realise some of these may be already do-able through LE, but for me, the average TS animator this is over technical, non intuitive, and not comfortable or fast.
A null object (sometimes referred to as an empty)
A null, which is ideally a visible (non rendering) selectable entity in the 3D window, and one that can be placed like an IK handle at users preferred 3D position (in relation to the Character) is how I would ideally like to control the overall object in world space. Basically a null is a non rendering visible representation of a point in space. it's often used as a parent in order to control say an IK handle or perhaps a group of verts etc, truly a VERY useful tool particularly in character anim/rigging.
Lattice deformer.
Spline deformer.
Someone with more technical knowhow than me, to finish building the tool interface set, that can be used in shared space.
Theres more, but it can wait until TS v8 ;)
Yours
IK
Apols for the long post, If you made it this far give yourself a banana !!
Ps within a few weeks I hope to be returning from working away for months. With a bit of luck I may then have time to get back into TS. However until the patch is released my aspirations are on hold. |
Post by TomG // Feb 3, 2009, 5:44am
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
Wow, nice post Igor with a lot of information in it! Thanks for adding that to this thread (and so to the testing process). Again won't be any guarantee of any sort of comment publically on any of these issues as we go through the beta process, but this thread will be watched and tested against :)
Tom |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 3, 2009, 10:30am
|
Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
|
You are more than welcome Tom. No guarantees required, would be counter productive at this time.
I have never felt such passion about a piece of software before, it's kinda weird. Obviously others feel the same or similar, or rather than get exasperated they would just have gone elsewhere.
Despite all the exasperation, (I'm there too) I would encourage all that can, to try to give positive input for a bit longer and maybe we may all get the results we want.
If the devs/beta testers need more examples and it gives the impetus to continue to get this sorted then do what it takes for hopefully only a little longer, Bring on those examples! As soon as I get home from working away (hopefully imminent) I will give my last final push with examples in order to help get the outcome I would prefer, I encourage others to do the same, whatever your reservations.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Tom has just said that this thread will be monitored, so we have our technical audience, talk to them, encourage them, work with them, one final group push! (it's a boy!! lol)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Best wishes
IK |
Post by Electric Jim // Feb 3, 2009, 12:22pm
|
Electric Jim
Total Posts: 98
|
Tom and Developers (Tomas?):
If you want to get a fairly complete understanding of what many of us see as the problems with the current implementation of character rigging and animation, I'd suggest reading through the entire "Skeleton Animation Question" thread to which I link above. (But start at page 1 of that thread; my link goes directly to page 4, because that's where my pics were.) And look at the included attachments (pics & scene files). It may take something like 30 to 60 minutes to read it thoroughly, and (as always) a few comments here & there may go a bit off-topic. But when you're done you'll see what all of us -- Igor, Stem, I, and others -- have been talking about, and be able to determine whether the problems have already been addressed in the upcoming patch, etc. |
Post by Stem // Feb 6, 2009, 5:48am
|
Stem
Total Posts: 199
|
Hello TomG,
We don't report on beta activities here in the public forum.
I did not inquire as to what the beta testers activities where/are. I asked if the problems with the locks is a bug or not. Your refusal to confirm or deny a bug, is for me, simply a serious lack of customer support, and yes I am a customer, having purchased a number of releases starting with V2 up to and including V7.5. Even with TS now being free, users of TS will ask and want to know if problems they find are actual bugs or not, and your (and caligari) attitude on withholding info will simply make them move to other software.
During the time of my and others attempts to try and work with the locks and the open forum discussions made, there was nothing from anyone who actually had any knowledge of how the locks where supposed to work and this I believe is still the same. So possibly you do not know if this is a bug, or the devs do not know how to make the locks work as in the simple examples contained in the help files, I do not know, but my (and others) patience is certainty not endless and will not forever continue to wait around to see if the patch will contain locks that work as expected (and shown in the help files), and if the patch file does not solve the problems, then what, do we again wait for another patch/release? (which are certainly not quick to appear)
best regards,
- Steve |
Post by TomG // Feb 6, 2009, 6:43am
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
You asked "So have the 2 examples I posted 6 months ago been looked at? " - this would be reporting on what is going on in beta testing, which is what we don't do.
We'll give you information as soon as some is available - during beta testing things go into flux, are unfinished, are prone to change, and a test or result is not necessarily meaningful. So there is nothing to tell you just now, as anything that could be said would simply be reporting on the beta testing process to say what is and what is not a meaningful result and why, which is what we do not do. Once we have something meaningful to pass on, we'll pass it on.
HTH,
Tom |
Post by Stem // Feb 6, 2009, 7:21am
|
Stem
Total Posts: 199
|
Hello TomG,
If you are to quote me, then please do not take a quote out of context.
So have the 2 examples I posted 6 months ago been looked at? I see little point in taking time to create and post more examples if the first are not even checked and then either confirmed as bugs, or that the problem cannot be reproduced and so more examples are needed.If after over 6 months of the original bug report being made you have no "meaningful result" to report, then I see little hope in having this issue resolved. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 6, 2009, 7:35am
|
Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
|
After months of working away I am at last home and going to be working locally! The wanderer returns. No harm to Aberdeen but if I never go there again, it won't be missed. Too expensive and the winter weather is in a league of it's own. Anyway at long last I will now have more time to get to play catchup learning TS and 3D character animation. :jumpy:
Stem
For what it is worth I submitted examples of bleedthrough of locks when 3 were "inline" approx 6 months ago. Also submitted was an example of a jittering,wandering limb/spine, which appeared to partially defy locks set to on.
I would guess that at least some if not all of the main participants of this thread, and others, are likely to have done the same.
My suggestion would be that if anyone has any new examples of lock bleedthrough or other lock related suspected bugs it would be a good idea to submit them ASAP.
my 2cents worth
IK Handel |
Post by Stem // Apr 17, 2009, 3:44pm
|
Stem
Total Posts: 199
|
Hi IK,
Just curious if you managed to get anywhere with the lock problems?
Regards,
- Stem |
Post by Igor K Handel // Apr 22, 2009, 8:22am
|
Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
|
Hi Stem
Yes I got the lock problem sorted..
I migrated to another 3D App !!
Nuff said.
Best wishes
IK |
Post by Stem // Apr 24, 2009, 3:17am
|
Stem
Total Posts: 199
|
Hi IK,
My patience as now run out. Over 8 months waiting and still nothing.
Due to the fact that this bug goes back to V7.1 and therefore a bug in software I actually paid for is quite annoying.
Take care,
Regards,
- Stem |
Post by Steinie // Apr 24, 2009, 3:27am
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
Hi Stem
Yes I got the lock problem sorted..
I migrated to another 3D App !!
Nuff said.
Best wishes
IK
What program did you find to your liking? |
|
