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I'm Beat
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 14, 2008, 8:03am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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I so want TS animation to be strong for character animation
have given this my absolute best shot, almost 2 weeks a minimum of 4 hours per day. But i have to put this on the back burner and recognise when enough is enough.
All I did was create a walk cycle. It was poor so I decided to examine the Fcurves. Then it was difficult to find the correct joints etc, so I renamed them all. Back to the fcurve editor, can't find em. Ok so I Think stuff it I will delete the keyframes and start again perhaps kframing 1 joint at a time using action tracks. So make new editable track. at frame zero I click record keframe button.
1 no keyframe is added
2 the same perfectly working skeleton worked in the same scene but now ends up in the pic below
3 Undos do not get me back to a working skeleton. Its stuck as you see it!
I so want to have the ability in TS to character animate, to learn character animation, and improve on what I already learned in other PLE type 3D apps.
But I have gone in circles. I spend all my time trying to build predictable ik with predictable outcome. After hours and hours, I just can't!
Not a quitter, and very stubborn, but heck I need to be moving forward. Time spent to get a result like the pic is just not productive.
Please get this aspect of TS stable, predictable and straight forward to use.. It is SO close, but SO unpredictable.
Don't want to be negative but for now I have to put this aspect of TS away, until it's sorted. Not had this problem with other apps and spent more than enough time studying it in TS. The outcome I am getting just can't be justified for the time needing to be spent to get this working for everyday enjoyable use.
I want this to work, I don't want to be negative, but come on a fresh install two days ago, and still gremlins like the pic, it's beaten me!
Yours
A very despondent IK HANDEL |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 14, 2008, 8:19am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Before you get to the point that you throw in the towel, sit back, take a break... breathe in a deep long breathe, slowly exhale out now... feel alittle better?
From a personal note, I've been reading your posts for the last couple of weeks, slowly you have pulled me in, I now look to see what you are doing, you seem to have boundless energy and vision. TS needs user's such as yourself to push "Way" beyond what us normal user's do :D You push every button, you kick all the wheels/tires, you drive on the curb, in the middle of the road, reverse, forward, sideways :p... you get into every detail of the program hehehe;) Caligari should be asking you to test for them because you definitely push the code.
Now after you take a break for a couple of hours or days, whatever you need, than come back with new eyes and try some more, keep posting what you are finding, keep asking questions. The more people test and push the code, the better off the program will be in the patch and future versions.
Rich |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 14, 2008, 10:07am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Hi IK. Keep in mind there is a patch coming so it's important to get the issues detailed as specifically as possible. I agree with Rich and I hope that the Caligari guys will invite you to beta test. I'd be great to have someone of your caliber on the team. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 14, 2008, 10:55am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Thanks guys.
Think I will take a break from the rigging end of things and see what the patch brings. Theres a big part of me that believes this will eventually be a great part of TS. maybe not this next patch but who knows whats in store down the road. For now though it's beaten me...run outta steam on this end of things.
Meantime I guess it's time to chill out n have some fun with other aspects of TS:D
IK |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 14, 2008, 11:52pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi Igor - I feel your pain brother! Getting a nice stable and useable IK rig is something I've not yet managed to acheive. Consequently I find I am unable to get quick and reliable results from using IK alone. However I do find things a lot more manageable using a combination of BVH moves, IK and most useful of all, FK.
FWIW I have also spent what feels like half my life trying to get a good walkcycle. The biggest issue I have is figuring out how to get the strides the same length. I can usuall get on foot staying put but the other does the dreaded sliding thing. I've used BVH files and BVH editors, I've tried keyframing...well I've tried everything I could think of to get a good steady walk cycle - all to no avail.
Things tS could have that could help:
1 - a way of automatically mirroring one half of the walk cycle to the 2nd half so that stridelengths are precisely the same.
2 - a way of nailing the foot to the ground or world coordinates so that the foots position stays immobile when required. This foot position would need to take a higher priority than the skeletons hip position in such a way that a walk cycle anim clip would also drive the overall position of the character (in the same way that a procedurally animated wheel can drive a vehicle across the scene).
Most human movements - and therefore most BVH and Mocap clips don't involve symmetrical motions like a walk or run cycle yet these fundamental types of motions are essential.
Perhaps Mr Bones can come up with some truly symmetrical walk and run cycles - I'd buy 'em! |
Post by Daaark // Aug 15, 2008, 1:16am
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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Igor, I've just about had it with tS too. I still haven't found a single thing that it is actually good at doing, and it's missing a lot of basic functionality. I waste more time waiting for the command icons to pop up so I can do what should be one easy thing in the time I could have taken to do 5 or 6 commands in all my other apps. It can't even do something as simple as subgroup my mesh, and leave it in the same spot at a specific size. :( It's a sloppy toy, nothing more. I got more done last night in an hour and ahalf with my app of choice than I did with a month of trying to use truSpace.
I feel your pain with the animation. I too wasted a week trying to do that, and in the end I was defeated just trying to make a simple functional skeleton. I don't want to worry about all this bs with creation order. Just let me throw some bones down and animate already. Milkshape and Fragmotion are only 20$ tools and they can implement this so easily, why can't trueSpace?
I can recommend to you Fragmotion or Anim8or, depending on your goals. You can just throw down a skeleton and start animating right away. |
Post by Electric Jim // Aug 15, 2008, 2:05am
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Electric Jim
Total Posts: 98
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For what it's worth, I'd like to second Wizard's request for a "mirror pose" tool. This is a basic tool for creating skeletal animation including but not limited to walk cycles. (Create the pose on Frame 1. Go to Frame 11 and select "Mirror Pose" to have the joints switch to the positions/rotations of the joints with the opposite Symmetry setting. Etc.) I'd recommend looking at Blender's capability in this regard. |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 15, 2008, 2:32am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Igor, I've just about had it with tS too. I still haven't found a single thing that it is actually good at doing, and it's missing a lot of basic functionality. I waste more time waiting for the command icons to pop up so I can do what should be one easy thing in the time I could have taken to do 5 or 6 commands in all my other apps. It can't even do something as simple as subgroup my mesh, and leave it in the same spot at a specific size. :( It's a sloppy toy, nothing more. I got more done last night in an hour and ahalf with my app of choice than I did with a month of trying to use truSpace.
I feel your pain with the animation. I too wasted a week trying to do that, and in the end I was defeated just trying to make a simple functional skeleton. I don't want to worry about all this bs with creation order. Just let me throw some bones down and animate already. Milkshape and Fragmotion are only 20$ tools and they can implement this so easily, why can't trueSpace?
I can recommend to you Fragmotion or Anim8or, depending on your goals. You can just throw down a skeleton and start animating right away.
Give me a break! trueSpace is vastly more functional than Anim8or. Yep, Anim8or is pretty cool but recommending it as a viable alternative to trueSpace simply demonstrates that you don't know how to use trueSpace. You were defeated trying to make a simple skeleton? What are you doing wrong? I've just successfully and fairly effortlessly rigged a four legged winged Dragon with a skeleton containing over 80 bones. I've also rigged a six-legged spider mech machine in a few hours the night before last with no problems at all. Given the validity of my own experience and over 6 years of using various tS versions it's a little difficult to give you any credibility with you "sloppy toy" wisecracks..
There are plenty of other people getting perfectly good results from trueSpace so before you go blaming the tool I suggest you look at the hardware you are using and the way you are using it. If you are having difficulties there are plenty of people here who are only too happy to help. There is no need to start slagging off the software - and by implication the people that use it - with cheap shots. |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 15, 2008, 3:36am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Wizard is correct. If you follow the threads that Igor was posting he was not just setting up basic rigs and doing basic animations, he was pushing TS and seeing what the program was capable of doing.
I can set up basic skeletons and do basic morphs in TS easily enough, where I am running into my problems is trying to incorporate more advanced rig (TS does not have the ability to do multiple skeletons right now so you need to plan your skeleton better). Weight painting tools are pretty good, but they also need to be carefully calculated and planned for because of some features that are as of yet to be implemented.
Do these things need to be taken care of to make TS a viable production tool... yes and no... production artist will always find a way to work around the deficiencies of a program. Does that make it right... well... no. The best thing you can do to make it better is to report what you find difficult in the program, to keep pushing the program. If you do not report what you are finding and what can make the work flow better or easier for you, it just will not get done. TS beta has many talented animators/rigger/artists on the team, yet they are not going to be able to catch everything, to test every feature 100%.
If you care about the program, and you want to have a powerful tool, report what you like, what confuses you, what you want. It may be that someone else knows how to do what you are trying to do, you can learn something... it also helps Caligari see what people are having a problem with...
It's easy to sit on the sidelines and say, "This program sucks... it does not do this or that...."
HTH
Rich |
Post by Stem // Aug 15, 2008, 6:14am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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If you follow the threads that Igor was posting he was not just setting up basic rigs and doing basic animations, he was pushing TS and seeing what the program was capable of doing.Personally I am looking at this thread and what has made IK take a break from this.
All I did was create a walk cycle. It was poor so I decided to examine the Fcurves.Would you then state that creating and editing a walk cycle is "pushing TS" ??....as that would be off-putting for a new user to see/hear
TS beta has many talented animators/rigger/artists on the team, yet they are not going to be able to catch everything, to test every feature 100%.That is probably one of the problems. I have never understood the closed/secret way TS is beta tested,.. it has been mentioned before by others.
Beta testing should be done by all types of users, from those who know the program well and follow set paths, to those who tend to push incorrect buttons or in the wrong order, and I dont mean just by accident or due to lack of knowledge, but because they test how a program reacts to such use and questions the direction needed and how the tools need to be used.
Maybe this beta test policy will change, I do hope so, because at the moment there are areas in TS that just appear to be over complex and can appear to have no logical direction. |
Post by TomG // Aug 15, 2008, 6:43am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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We do try to ensure we choose just such a mix in our beta testers :) THey are just regular users who we have seen have expertise in varying fields, or a mix of approaches, or who consistently find problems, etc.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 15, 2008, 6:44am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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... because at the moment there are areas in TS that just appear to be over complex and can appear to have no logical direction.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Rather than just complaining about what you see as shortcomings in the program and it's beta testing how about offering some constructive criticism? If you have a problem with some aspect of tS then by all means let us know the specifics and what it is you are trying to acheive. Obviously not everything is possible but it just may be that someone here has already figured out a good way to do something. Additionally, the Caligari developers read these forums and want to know how to improve their product.
If you want a better product (and lets face it that's what everyone wants) then contribute something useful. That way everyone wins.:D |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 15, 2008, 7:42am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Personally I am looking at this thread and what has made IK take a break from this.
Would you then state that creating and editing a walk cycle is "pushing TS" ??....as that would be off-putting for a new user to see/hear
it's a shame you are only going to read into this thread what you want to see.
That is probably one of the problems. I have never understood the closed/secret way TS is beta tested,.. it has been mentioned before by others.
Every company tests and develops their software the way they choose... you want to find out about closed and secretive, find out what SoftImage is planning for their next version (beyond the recently announced and released V7), you will get nothing. Ask Maxon about the plans for C4D and how the beta cycle is going? You won't get any info from their either. Hey how about AutoDesk, I am sure they are dying to let you into the inner workings of the development and testing procedures :). There are examples of company's that do put their customer's into the beta process, it works for them but that does not mean that is the way every piece of software should be developed.
Enjoy the process of stirring the pot and creating controversy... or you could take the role of helping the software get better. It only requires you to report what feels good, and report what doesn't and if you run into bugs or things that don't work correctly, let Caligari know.
Rich |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 15, 2008, 9:51am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Well that helping software get better part is handled differently
in every company !
When you keep monologing about what you want and you see no
result in telling what you want.... you stop to do that after some time.
As soon as there is dialog the complaints about it as well as that feeling
stops.I personaly like the way things are handled by Moi 3d and Michael
Gibson. He´s the one who initially created Rhino and now develops Moi 3d.
If you have new ideas he talks to you about it at the forum and everyone can join in. Its an open beta for all owners of the previous version and there is a new beta every 3-4 weeks.
My personal view of Truespace inovation cycle every 1-2 years is to long.
I think it has ruined a lot in the past.(I remember the big gap TS6.6 to TS7)
No good in talking about potentially old software.
You get to improve things after 3 years and thats a decade in software cycles.
I dont think that -you cant do anything well in TS- is right -but theres a lot
of room for improvement and if we cant help - because were talking against walls sometimes- we are not going to be able to help !
My 2 cents !
Peter
PS.:We are all not conspirazing about the biggest invention after the wheel
we are talking about workflow !
Why cant we have 2 new tools in 2 months now to test for everyone as a patch ?Plus some improvements and bugfixes ? |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 15, 2008, 10:27am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I agree with Rayman, now that TS is available for free download, I think there would be less issues with making beta versions available for forum member testing.
A public testing cycle would give a lot more feedback and could be implemented by having a separate section of the forum for development versions and bug reporting.
The key thing with the animation tools is figuring out what about it makes it hard to develop an effective workflow and address that ASAP.
One thing that might help would be to be able to designate a way of creating linear interpolated keyframes. Maybe if a position lock is set, the keyframe generated for that joint should be automatically made linear. That would prevent the feet sliding and animation floating issue for objects that are position locked (at rest). Perhaps the rotation locks should do the same thing as well. What do you guys think? |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 15, 2008, 10:59am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I don't know what we can or can't say out here.... that whole NDA thing...
Whatever Roman/MS/Calgari decide is fine by me...
Rich |
Post by Stem // Aug 15, 2008, 10:31pm
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Was that not a carl sagen quote. Maybe TS is as mysterious and complex as the galaxy.
Rather than just complaining about what you see as shortcomings in the program and it's beta testing how about offering some constructive criticism? I do wish I had as much spare time as you to spend on the forums, unfortunately I do not.
If you have a problem with some aspect of tS then by all means let us know the specifics and what it is you are trying to acheive. Obviously not everything is possible but it just may be that someone here has already figured out a good way to do something. Additionally, the Caligari developers read these forums and want to know how to improve their product.Someone "figured out", come on. Why should there be a need to "figure out" how to do basic functions.
If you want a better product (and lets face it that's what everyone wants) then contribute something useful. That way everyone wins.Ditto. |
Post by Stem // Aug 15, 2008, 10:33pm
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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it's a shame you are only going to read into this thread what you want to see.I read the thread as posted,... should I look further than the thread to make reply? The problem was made very clear, it is only the replies that make it complex. |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 16, 2008, 12:19am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Was that not a carl sagen quote. Maybe TS is as mysterious and complex as the galaxy.
Yes it's a quote - sorry I don't know who said it first. If it was Sagen then I'm pleased as I am a big fan of that guy.
I appreciate you are probably being somewhat tongue in cheek about this but you are actually correct - any mystery or any complexity is as mysterious and complex as any other mysterious complexity.
I do wish I had as much spare time as you to spend on the forums, unfortunately I do not.What does your part of the planet revolve faster than mine? Do you only have 20 hour days? Mine are the standard issue 24 hour jobs. You have exactly as much time as I do - you just choose to spend it differently.
Additionally, a person choosing to spend time on a forum whining and bitching when they could be spending that time making helpful suggestions is not very useful to anyone.
Someone "figured out", come on. Why should there be a need to "figure out" how to do basic functions.Ditto.Are you serious? Everybody needs to learn basic functions, to 'figure out' how to perform any task, from walking and talking to driving a car and, oh yeah, figuring out the most efficient and elegant way to use a piece of software. Someone who has never done Point Editing for example, or assigning UV coordinates has to figure out how to do it - regardless of the software. Different individuals find different individual methods of figuring things out. Sometimes a percieved fault with the software is actually just a symptom of a less effective way of using it. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 16, 2008, 12:57am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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First off
This is a free app that never made any specific promises as to the do- ability of specific animation procedures.
Second off, when I paid for TS 7.51, I knew that the Character capabilities of TS had only just arrived for workspace side, ( I have watched TS evolve for 15 years and waited for Character anim to be introduced before my first purchase) so was aware this wasn't going to be a polished finished module. I paid for the app as a vote of Faith.. That faith continues!
I have no intention and no wish to use another app. I have every faith through watching the historical evolution of TS that the issues WILL be addressed. (Assuming that this doesn't become a virtual Earth only app)
For me there has got to be a recognition that in real terms the character animation capabilities of TS are in their infancy. No one has ever said otherwise, and watching TS evolution always pointed to this aspect being work in progress.
It is worth noting that even now the number of users interested in Character anim is small in the overall scheme of things. This applies to other 3D apps too. Chicken and Egg, better capabilities, more users. but the current state of reality is that Character anim in TS IS a minority sport!
All my post said was that I have pushed (probably too far for this stage of evolution) to the point where MY aspirations for TS have not been met (YET). THAT was inevitable as I knew I was pushing a "module" that is in relative infancy.
One of the difficulties I have, and I suspect we all have, It's actually very hard to pin down specifics as to why particular problems arise. Even my collapsed skeleton had no obvious reason for doing what it did, and I couldn't repeat the problem, or isolate which action caused it.
I and I'm sure lots of others would be delighted to give more info on problems, but this particular area for me anyway is proving extremely illusive. Trying to get incorrect behaviours to be repeated and therefore analysed, is proving very difficult. No doubt this must be the same for the Devs and beta testers.
One of the reasons that I (and Aidan) am chasing the ability to realtime screen stream is specifically because it can open up realtime analysis possibilites between TS users. The ability to compare two (apparently identical) skeletons side by side in real time is one which should help problem solve a lot faster. This is just a very small part of what Realtime streaming and TS screenshare can offer. Teaching, Sharing, collaboration, problem solving, voice comms etc all have wide reaching possibilities if we can nail down the combined technologies into a harmonious and straightforward option for the average TS user, it may prove to be an invaluable toolset.
This is the first app I have used where IK is based solely on locks and what they are attached to. Most apps dictate the IK chain effected by specifying a joint for the handle and a joint for the other end of the chain. I wonder if this approach of using locks(which while new, seems perfectly logical to me)
has any bearing on things. Again hard to pin down.
I have spent a lot of hours trying to sort this out, my post is simply a recognition that for my knowledge and my experince within TS I can get no further with the info/experience I currently have. Thats not damning TS its just a statement of the facts. Frustration yes, Damning TS to the scrap heap absolutely not! If I didn't have faith I would just clear off saying nothing and never be seen again.. no big deal.
I disagree with using this thread as a vehicle for negative crits of TS. To get TS better the way forward is to be constructive not destructive. My post indicates that I have run out of steam/knowledge/ and to an extent patience. The patience is simply a matter that I have spent (by choice) 4 hours a day for several weeks trying to analyse the causes of problems / inconsistent behavours, without success. So I recognise that I push very hard and got to this point faster and that now I have got as far as I can currently go. Frustration yes, writing TS off No Way!!
There are loads of useful capabilities that eventually would be nice to see in TS , spline IK, an ability to move joint axis away from joint, constraints, pole vectors, Simple set driven key setup capability (for the LE illiterate like me), layers, Simple assignment of null objects to objects joints etc. Simple assignment of user made objects as drivers for ik or joints. The list goes on, but for now it's time to draw breath and stabilise what we have.
Predictable and repeatable IK setup and function is for me the current critical area needing addressed. The area of stack numbers and strange readings plus joint limit oddities would also go a long way to clarifying the root cause of IK/lock confusion or inconsistency.
I look forward to further developments and welcome constructive input.
IK
PS Sorry for the long post, but you should know me by now (this is 3 days worth) :D |
Post by Stem // Aug 17, 2008, 9:35am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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What does your part of the planet revolve faster than mine? Do you only have 20 hour days? Mine are the standard issue 24 hour jobs. You have exactly as much time as I do - you just choose to spend it differently.You do not know my circumstances or responsibilities and see your reply (as with a number of others) simply as sarcastic.
I will simply ignore your posts in future. |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 17, 2008, 8:13pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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You do not know my circumstances or responsibilities and see your reply (as with a number of others) simply as sarcastic.
I will simply ignore your posts in future.
Just because I see things differently to you does not make me sarcastic. Ignoring alternative ways of looking at things it of course your right but I suggest you are unlikely to learn much from it.
It was not my intention to be sarcastic. My comment "You have exactly as much time as I do - you just choose to spend it differently." is a simple irrefutable statement of truth not any type of attack on you. Your life choices, the responsibilities you choose to take and the way you choose to apportion your time are as important as anyone else's. Regardless of who we are we all have 24 hours in a day and choices to make about how we spend them.
You appeared to be using your 'lack of time' on the forums as a justification for unnecessary negativity and hostility. The point I was trying to make is that even if you have only 5 minutes a week available for replying on the forum you can choose to contribute constructively (as I see you are doing in another current thread) or can choose to contribute destructively, as you were doing earlier in this thread.
My intention was to assist by providing you with more options and better ways of looking at things. Your choice to perceive and dismiss this as sarcasm is yours to make but (assuming you have read this far) you have much to lose by ignoring my comments and much to gain by considering them for their merits and seeing them as half full rather than half empty.
For myself I have no problem with you, no issue's or resentments - you seem like a nice guy and I wish you the best in all your endeavours. |
Post by Steinie // Aug 18, 2008, 1:26am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Stem,
Just lighten up a little. Your taking this 3D stuff way to serious. There is a lot of great features in the new trueSpace 7.6 and your feedback on what will need improving will just make it better. No body here is against you. Keep asking great questions and pointing out weaknesses in the program. Your opinion is needed. |
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