|
|
To Torque or not to Torque? Opinions please
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
To Torque or not to Torque? Opinions please // Game Development
Post by jayr // Sep 30, 2008, 7:16am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
A friend of mine really want to make an MMORPG and wants me to help with models and texturea and the like. He's thinking of using the Torque Game engine. I know there's been a thread on here before on different engines ( i have read it) but i'd like any experiences of people using Torque, is it any good? Is GameStudio A7 better?
Obviously the visual look of the end result is important to me so i'm intrested in getting opinions of what kind of poly-count/ fps/ texture resolution i could expect a game make with these tools could handle from people who've used it. Any input would be valued, thanks. |
Post by 3dfrog // Sep 30, 2008, 8:14am
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
It depends, torque is more versatile, but reeally requires c++ coding to do anything good with it. Gamestudio is great, I have used it in the past, and the coding language is much easier to grasp. Of course for an mmorpg there is realmcrafter which you can check out at www.thegamecreators.com.
I haven't personally used torque, but I can say from my experience with gamestudio that gamestudio will handle pretty large scenes with an excellent fps. Also the scene editor is dead easy to use.
HTH |
Post by jayr // Sep 30, 2008, 10:07am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
Thanks 3Dfrog, i'm not quite sure what he's got planed yet, how deep the game'll be but i think he knows a few coders he'd going to bring in on it. It's going to be a few weeks before anything like concept art gets started but i'd like to have an idea of what is acheiveable for Indie games |
Post by Délé // Sep 30, 2008, 4:31pm
|
Délé
Total Posts: 1374
|
I have Torque. I think it is a good engine, but I never really did much with it. I had a hard time finding ways to get assets into the game. I was able to use a $15 plug-in with DeleD Lite (HERE (http://www.delgine.com/)). That worked to get DIF files into Torque. I really didn't like DeleD much, but I was able to import models for DIF export. The only problem I had was that I had to re UV map the models in DeleD as I kept losing them on import. So it works, but it's a bit of a hassle.
I never did get DTS or DSQ working though. I think UU3D exports DTS, never tried that. I believe Milkshape does that too. I don't know how in the world to get DSQ files in though.
So Torque is a good game engine if you can get a pipeline going. As Frog said it will be more versatile than other engines, but it will take more programming too. It's good as far as visual quality IMO. You may have to jump through hoops and use software that is quirky to get your assets in the game though. If you've got good programmers you shouldn't have too much trouble with programming, so the pipeline will probably be your biggest hurdle. |
Post by jayr // Sep 30, 2008, 11:17pm
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
thanks Dele, i've got UU3D i know you can download loads of extra formats for it so i'll see if i can find that one. I hate uv mapping so i'd really not like it if it went missing on import every time :(
Do you use any other game engines? IF you do how does it compare? I don't think he's bought it yet (he's on holiday at the moment so i'm not sure) so he might be looking into others as well.
I was looking at trueVision 3D last night, anyone used that? |
Post by Tiles // Sep 30, 2008, 11:36pm
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Hmm, i have the feeling that i should say something here :)
An MMORPG is nothing for hobbyists. Even more for hobbyists that even don't know their engine nor the language for it.
It needs dozens of fulltime specialists to create an MMORPG. It needs a million budget. And even then it takes years to finish it. Something that is simply not to achieve by even experienced hobbyists. I for myself have enough experience to know that i better keep my hands away from such a monster ;)
But even when you manage to create your MMO. Who's gonna host it? Who pays the bills? And who spends 24 hours per day for the next ten years to have an eye at it?
I would suggest to choose a smaller goal. Even a normal RPG can keep you busy for several years ;) |
Post by jayr // Oct 1, 2008, 12:40am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
Just to adress your concerns Tiles, this isn't MY personal project, i won't be working on it alone and i won't have anything to do with the programming in any way, that would be suicidal :D
My role will just be concept design/ general ideas, making models and texturing and i won't be the only one doing any of these roles.
I agree that this is a huge project but most likely it will start off small scale i.e. a few settlements small wilderness then expand, even then though there will be a lot of buildings and characters involved
I just want to get a bit of information from people who've used game engines on what type of quality it is reasonable to expect the engines to handle, any kind of import/ export problems i could expect and general advice. It's ok looking at the company websites but sometimes what they promise and what works in the software are two different things. |
Post by Tiles // Oct 1, 2008, 1:42am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
I just had the feeling that i need warn you. Because an MMO is simply too big for hobbyists in general. This project will fail :)
I agree that this is a huge project but most likely it will start off small scale i.e. a few settlements small wilderness then expand, even then though there will be a lot of buildings and characters involved
This will not work. You will develop yourself into a corner again and again. Not that it really disturbs, this project will fail anyways.
The better advice is to start with very small and small projects. Then grow to something more complicated. Up to the point where you know how to make an MMORPG. Up to the point where you know your engine in and out. Where you know about their strong sides and their limits. And up to the point where you know the workarounds.
The benefit of that route is that you ideally have several small games after that then. Which gives you a better motivation than a lost project that you start from scratch again and again. And with which you can convince other people to join bigger projects. Maybe even MMO's.
The downside of that route is that you will reach the point where you know what you're doing. And that is the point where you to 99.99 % keep your hands away from an MMORPG. Because then you know how much work it is :P |
Post by Délé // Oct 1, 2008, 3:48am
|
Délé
Total Posts: 1374
|
I have to disagree with Tiles. That's like saying nobody can realistically make an animation without millions of dollars and a team of artists. Sure, it would be unrealistic to make a 90min blockbuster animation, but a small group or even a single artist could make an animation short. In fact, many do.
I don't think an MMORPG is any different in this respect. Is it reasonable to expect to create the next World of Warcracft? Of course not. However I see absolutely no reason why a small team couldn't put together a small MMORPG. Of course it will still take some work, but entirely possible IMO. Look at how much Vickie Eagle has done with her MMORPG, and she is just one person.
Do you use any other game engines? IF you do how does it compare?No I really haven't. I tried a demo of FPS creator some time back, but that's really the only other game engine I've actually tested out. I did think about getting Realm Crafter at one time. I decided against it though because, while it looked easier to use, it didn't look as versatile as Torque. I think Vickie has had some success with it though. As I recall, she has used both Realm Crafter and Torque. So she might be able to give you some comparison. |
Post by TomG // Oct 1, 2008, 4:02am
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
While I understand some of where Tiles is coming from, I also disagree in stating flat out that it "won't work".
The same was said about indie games not too long ago, with the increase in huge budget blockbuster games with graphics that squeezed out every drop of power from the machine they were on and that had art teams bigger than some companies just to make the assets. The day of the indie game was over.
Then came XBox Live, the Wii, Pop Cap and more. Suddenly games that could (and were) made by one person were hugely succesful and in demand. They did not have uber graphics, they did not need teams of hundreds, they did not take hundreds of man years and did not need millions to make. Line Rider, Braid, N+, Portal, and many many more.
Now, a MMORPG is a bit different, but there is no reason why someone couldn't apply a different way to thinking about a MMORPG and turn it into something that is 1) creatable by a small team and 2) still interesting and a success.
Just as Braid does not try to be Halo 3, so could this MMORPG be something other than WoW. It doesn't need sprawling landscapes designed for thousands of players. It doesn't need 5o to 70 levels of character progression with hundreds upon hundreds of quests. Maybe something refreshing and new can take the MMORPG and redefine it and do something different, that can be done with a small team, and that could change the landscape of MMORPGs by adding a whole new dimension to them.
So, I think it is an exciting idea and not one to be abandoned.
That said, ANY game is a large project, and the biggest cause of a game not completing (or any project) is biting off more than you can chew, getting demoralized, and giving up. So yes, you need to be realistic in your goals. Sure, don't start this thinking you are going to make something on the scale and quality of WoW, or even "poor man's WoW" that is smaller, maybe do something refreshing and new and "size appropriate", get away from the questing / leveling / exploring system that those epic size games go for.
But certainly don't say you are doomed to failure and stop before you begin :) Take writing a novel, the best advice people can give - sit down and write. Doesn't matter what you write, just write, because if you don't, you'll never finish a novel. Don't wait to have the one brilliant idea, just keep writing, all the time.
Same thing here, just sit down and make a game. Sure, keep your expectations realistic, set some valid goals, but also DEFINITELY get in there and get creating, otherwise you won't get anything made.
So I say go for it! There is great potential here. As a long time MMORPG player I think seeing something different would be very refreshing, each year brings a crop of 2 or 3 new giant-sized uber games, but really they are all "more of the same" and nothing breaks the mold. The rise of the indie MMORPG? Could be fun!
Tom |
Post by KeithC // Oct 1, 2008, 6:44am
|
KeithC
Total Posts: 467
|
Actually a very small team did make a commercial (and successful) MMO, using Torque.;) |
Post by Tiles // Oct 1, 2008, 6:55am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Look at how much Vickie Eagle has done with her MMORPG, and she is just one person.
One person, yes. With LOTS of knowledge about the 3DGS engine. Knowledge that is collected over years in lots of smaller projects before. That's why i mentioned where to start.
Mmh, nobody has answered me yet the question who hosts the MMORPG then. And who plays admin for 24 hours per day the next ten years. Vikie, what's your plan for that? ;)
An MMORPG is equal with most games. Yeah, just a few graphics and a bit code. But it is also very different. Alone the amount of work is unbelievable. So unbelievable that you will never calculate it correct. You will stumble across problems that simply not happens in smaller games. Like how to chunk the whole stuff that you don't need a renderfarm to run it. Then there is this whole network stuff. The whole game has to fit to that. Not that i know it from own experience. As told, i am not crazy enough to make an MMORPG. But i know what a big hassle it is to connect and synchronize just two players with each other. And i know how much work it is to make a game. My biggest project has kept me busy for three years.
Mmh, okay, don't want to be a party pooper. Everybody has the right to do its own mistakes. So do your MMORPG. And good luck with it :) |
Post by jayr // Oct 1, 2008, 7:23am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
Mmh, nobody has answered me yet the question who hosts the MMORPG then. And who plays admin for 24 hours per day the next ten years.
Don't know beacuase, as i said earlier, this is not MY project, i'm not planning it, organizing it, programming it or paying for it. I'm not doing this on my own, there are other people to worry about those things. All i am doing is providing artwork, models and textures.
If it does indeed turn out to be too big a project maybe the decision will be made to tone it down a bit, i don't know, i can't see into the future.
If the game is never finished i'll still have plenty of models and experience from it. |
Post by transient // Oct 1, 2008, 1:35pm
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
Actually a very small team did make a commercial (and successful) MMO, using Torque.
Unfortunately, this team seems to have fallen apart (dev team has left), and the game is now in limbo according to some. It's good to see some indis had a go at this, but I'm with tiles that creating an mmo is one thing, sustaining it is another.
This is why I recommend easier tools like fpsc and 3drad. They maybe more limited, but you're a fighting chance of doing what so few (like tiles) ever manage - to finish a game.
If you're having fun, though, may as well have a go. In my experience, things stop being fun on mods/ game projects when the project flatlines, but don't let this necessarily put you off.:) |
Post by KeithC // Oct 1, 2008, 4:17pm
|
KeithC
Total Posts: 467
|
Didn't know that, Transient; that's too bad. |
Post by jayr // Oct 2, 2008, 12:40am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
Unfortunately, this team seems to have fallen apart (dev team has left), and the game is now in limbo according to some. It's good to see some indis had a go at this, but I'm with tiles that creating an mmo is one thing, sustaining it is another.
This is why I recommend easier tools like fpsc and 3drad. They maybe more limited, but you're a fighting chance of doing what so few (like tiles) ever manage - to finish a game.
If you're having fun, though, may as well have a go. In my experience, things stop being fun on mods/ game projects when the project flatlines, but don't let this necessarily put you off.:)
that is true, i've seen lots of mods i've wanted to play stall fopr whatever reason and when he first sugeested making a game i thought he was going to use ogre or one of the free engines to make a much smaller game but just before he went on holiday he mentioned wanting to do an mmorpg.
I haven't had any further details so far which is why i want opinions, not on the likelyhood of success, but on the quality of the tools that are likely to be involved. Thank you all for your opinions so far.
I'll give more details about the size and type of the project as i get them but this thread seems to have drifted a bit.
I was checking out 3drad yesterday and it looks ok, i might suggest he use of one those before he starts throwing money around. |
Post by The Master Elite // Oct 2, 2008, 3:50am
|
The Master Elite
Total Posts: 107
|
I dunno if you're aware or not, but there's an alternative to Torque that is pretty good looking...
..LeadWerks 2.0 is an awesome game engine available for $150...and it has many of the features found in the games of today...but like Torque, it needs programming... |
Post by jayr // Oct 2, 2008, 7:01am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
I dunno if you're aware or not, but there's an alternative to Torque that is pretty good looking...
..LeadWerks 2.0 is an awesome game engine available for $150...and it has many of the features found in the games of today...but like Torque, it needs programming...
I had a look a leadworks, looks very good. I'm not worrying about progamming as i wouldn't be doing it :p
I will mention that one when he gets back though, hope he hasn't rushed in and bought Torque. |
Post by The Master Elite // Oct 2, 2008, 7:07am
|
The Master Elite
Total Posts: 107
|
Also, what type of game are you planning to make? Plans can't be done if there are insufficient resources to complete them... |
Post by jdebroy // Oct 2, 2008, 12:20pm
|
jdebroy
Total Posts: 5
|
I recently purchased Torque Game Builder 2D to get some games into Mac computers. The engine is fine, and was ready to purchase TGEA, when I noticed that in the license there is stated that you must have the GarageGames splash screen. That is in commercial, pro, indie and all versions, unless you pay $5000 per title you want to have permission to use your own splash. As they say in the answer I received, its a "bit pricey".
With 3DGS you need to purchase the pro version and can publish any kind of game without their splash. |
Post by Délé // Oct 2, 2008, 11:26pm
|
Délé
Total Posts: 1374
|
Yeah, from what I see 3DGS is definitely worth a look at least. I've never used it but it looks pretty good. You will probably have a much easier time with the pipeline as it looks like they support more common formats (FBX, X, 3DS, ASE, OBJ, MDL, MD2, MAP).
Not sure how friendly it is for making an MMORPG though. It looks like you would need to purchase the Pro version which is $899. The Pro version claims to allow an "unlimited" amount of players. The Commercial version only allows up to eight. You might want to dig around to ensure that the architecture will work well with an MMORPG style game. |
Post by Eagle // Oct 6, 2008, 8:37am
|
Eagle
Total Posts: 221
|
Well said Tom!
Always~
Vickie ;) |
Post by KevinMc // Oct 6, 2008, 4:43pm
|
KevinMc
Total Posts: 8
|
Tiles, I think you're missing some key background material here. ;)
Everyone supposes that because Tabula Rasa spent $105 million on development, MMORPGs are strictly out of the reach of indies and small teams. As Tom alluded, that is a gross overstatement and shows a lack of understanding of both the genre and the history of the genre.
MMORPGs grew out of MUDs. Today, there are still several hundred thousand people playing MUDs, but in their heyday it was many times that. And there were hundreds of MUDs running at any given time (for anyone too young to remember the 80s and 90s, MUDs are text based multiuser games, generally fantasy, played over the early internet). People spent their free time making these games, pouring thousands of hours into some of the better ones. A few went commercial; most were (and are) free.
We're approaching a time in MMORPG development where a similar movement can occur. Realmcrafter paved the way at first, with an ease of use still unparellelled by any other software. Torque now has it's own MMO Kit (http://www.mmoworkshop.com), which is based on the Minions of Mirth MMO - noteworthy because it was made by one person over the course of about a year, but had grossed in excess of $400,000 in the two years following release.
Other engines designed for indies are starting to pop up as well. IndieZen is a framework well worth taking a peek at. Multiverse has acquired a great deal of acclaim and public acknowledgement. Raph Koster's Metaplace is being designed with the goal of allowing a basic end-user to create web based games - up to and including MMOGs. Visual3D.net is approaching a functional level for MMORPG creation. And that's just a few of the major players. ;)
The day of an MMORPG being something that MUST cost millions of dollars is about to end.
Now, understand - 99% of what is created with all of these things will be crap. ;) Most of these games will flop, or die before they are even finished. But then again, that's true of ALL indie games, isn't it? The point for most amateur game designers is to have fun in the process, not just to kick out that next moneymaker. Yes, 99% of the hobby MMO horde of games will be crap, but the developers won't care. They'll be having fun, and perhaps their next effort will be even better.
***********************
Now, what about commercial indie ventures? Possible? Sure!
Josh in the above example took stock Torque and Python, and in about a year had crafted a basic EQ-clone style MMO that earned him a pretty decent living til he sold the company and took a job at GarageGames. A Tale in the Desert takes in about $500,000 a year, of which almost everything is profit and salary for the two co-developers. Puzzle Pirates was created by a tiny team who had some members mortgage their homes for the couple hundred thousand they wanted on hand for launch - their game (games, now) is a HUGE indie success story. Roma Victor is another indie MMO that released to small acclaim and is still plodding along (no financial data available on that one) years later.
So there are quite a few examples of commercial indie success. Does an indie commercial MMO look like WOW? Of course not. ;) ATITD does not have 24hr support; they support their 3000 players via email and forums. Prairie Games supports Minions of Mirth the same way. None of these games have the artistic "flash" of the newest and hottest PC games, but they seem to manage decently without them, and ditching that saves a game millions, even tens of millions of dollars.
Indie and hobby MMOGs are never going to replace the mainstream megaliths, but I suspect you're going to continue to see small, scrappy projects snapping up the niche markets which are invariably created when an industry gets as big as this one is, and I think we're going to begin in the coming years to see a blossoming of free or dirt cheap hobby games which mirror the MUD days at their prime.
Interesting times!
*****************************
As for engines, all of the above are pretty viable. I would stay strictly away from 3DGS from Conitec, unless you have the C++ skills to rip out their entire networking system and add your own - the networking there is not MMO capable, from what the users there who have tried are saying. Realmcrafter is a strong option and getting stronger. Multiverse is nice, and FREE, but takes a permanent % of your gross revenue, and if they ever go under - you're sunk - all users to your game need to connect to your game through their server first, making this one risky. Indiezen, Metaplace, and Visual3D are still a ways out, but making progress.
Best options are really tied for Torque or Realmcrafter, IMHO, with Multiverse being a slightly more distant third (for the reasons above). More options will open up over the next year or two. |
Post by jayr // Oct 6, 2008, 10:47pm
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
Thanks for the info Kevin, i have been looking at realmcrafter it looks like the best solution out of the box.
MMOWorkshop sounds good but the website looks like it's down, i'll check it again later. |
Post by Tiles // Oct 7, 2008, 2:18am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Hmm. And i think that i was not clear enough. It's not so much the money.
Point was and is that every Newbie tends to grab the MMO first instead to learn the basics of making a game. Not knowing what and how much work needs to be done. First paint the Mona Lisa then learn how to hold the pencil is not a good idea though.
Hey, i did the beginner mistake number one too. My first project was an RPG. Who cares about the warnings that this is too big to start with? The next project after i failed was a very very simple and primitive game to learn the basics first ... ;) |
Post by jayr // Oct 7, 2008, 11:15am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
Hmm. And i think that i was not clear enough. It's not so much the money.
Point was and is that every Newbie tends to grab the MMO first instead to learn the basics of making a game. Not knowing what and how much work needs to be done. First paint the Mona Lisa then learn how to hold the pencil is not a good idea though.
Maybe i wasn't clear enough the 3 times i've said it so far, I'm not doing this on my own, I'm not coding it or doing all the artwork myself. My friend who came up with the idea is a good 3D artist and he's looking for good coders to do the programming.
I value your experience Tiles but you have no idea who else is involved in this. You have no idea of their level of experience and to be honest neither do i, i haven't met them yet.
They could have as little experience in making games as me, they may not. This could die with a wimper, it may not. Whichever way it goes it'll give me some practice. |
Post by Tiles // Oct 7, 2008, 11:19pm
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Yes, jayr. i have understood. I have even understood it the first time. And i think you have taken my point now too.
Mmh, to test the experience of programmers ask them about their portfolio, the finished projects they have been involved in.
When the programmer has no finished projects yet, and asks you, the artist, what engine to use, well, then i would keep my hands away as far as even possible. And now have a look at your initial question. I already know that your programmers seems to lack of important knowledge. Guess why i have thrown in the warning ;)
Anyways, you have chosen to do it. Okay. I keep my fingers crossed that it succeeds. Good luck :) |
Post by jayr // Oct 7, 2008, 11:27pm
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
When the programmer has no finished projects yet, and asks you, the artist, what engine to use, well, then i would keep my hands away as far as even possible. And now have a look at your initial question. I already know that your programmers seems to lack of important knowledge ;)
Anyways, you have chosen to do it. Okay. I keep my fingers crossed that it succeeds. Good luck :)
Just to point out, my friend isn't the progammer, he's an artist like me. He knows programmers though, and i'll do as you suggest and check their experience.
And he didn't ask me about the engines, he told me the ones he was thinking of using. |
Post by Tiles // Oct 8, 2008, 1:31am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Ah, that point was not clear to me. I thought he is the programmer :p |
|
