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Poll on realtime rendering
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Poll on realtime rendering // Roundtable
Post by splinters // Apr 16, 2009, 11:04pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Given that this is trueSpace's forte at the moment, I would be suprised if it does not feature in the next issue of 3D World but either way, they are currently looking for opinions for a poll to be in that issue. From the forum:
"Issue 117 of 3D World, on sale 1 May, looks at the latest developments on real-time rendering. Caustic Graphics recently unveiled its Caustic RT hardware-accelerated rendering system. Bunkspeed and Redway3D already ship interactive photorealistic visualisation systems for the design market, while ARTVPS and the Chaos Group are working on new high-speed technologies.
We'd like to know whether you think real-time rendering is set to be a core technology of the future or just a niche for the high end of production. Cast your vote in our poll and see the results in 3D World issue 117.
Poll closes on Monday 13 April."
Worth a look maybe? |
Post by marcel // Apr 16, 2009, 11:28pm
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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I think realtime rendering will not be only a niche . it will be a technology for many applications, not to replace the actuals render engine because artists and productors need to control what you see (illustrations, movies, ....). Real time is for interactivity (games, museum, shop,...)
Both technology have a future. |
Post by splinters // Apr 16, 2009, 11:57pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Doh, I just saw the deadline date; 13th April!!
Oh well, consider it a headsup for the next issue...:o
And maybe the basis for a nice constructive discussion...;) |
Post by transient // Apr 17, 2009, 12:11am
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Total Posts: 977
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I think the problem is the definition of real-time rendering. The apps in the op use the gpu to accelerate raytracing. Vray is getting this soon.
They're not like truespace's real-time renderer, which is like a game engine. TS is more like quest or dxstudio, which don't seem to be the kinds of products the article is talking about.
Since we still have no idea what kind of app truespace is trying to be these days it's hard to compare. I would be guessing that TS isn't ever going to be like these great apps. It would be nice to be wrong.;) |
Post by marcel // Apr 17, 2009, 2:52am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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I do not speak of "realtime" to define the workspace. it is a nonsense. modelsize is realtime, wireframe is realtime, most of 3d apps are realtime. The only difference between the workspace and modelsize is the quality issued by the gpu. That would have been easier to say TS6 side and TS7 side. The real problem is what are the uses to be developed with TS7 different then TS6. If the quality of real-time rendering of TS7 is only used to move the scene within the soft, then it has no interest for most people. The Java 3D or flash 3d are successful because it is possible to operate the realtime outside the apps that product the 3d (internet, shop ...). Currently, no external application use the benefits of "TS7 real time". Virtual Earth does not use the real time rendering engine of TS. I have trouble understanding why make extraordinary tools that have no real utility for external use. |
Post by noko // Apr 17, 2009, 7:54am
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Total Posts: 684
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I think Marcel hit it on the head there, we use to have truePlay where a viewer outside of tS was available. I find it valuable for optional way of fast rendering for a video and can also be useful for testing ideas and concepts out in a more visual way without having to have alot of rendering time. |
Post by Weevil // Apr 17, 2009, 8:03am
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Total Posts: 534
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Give that man Marcel a coconut please he's right |
Post by marcel // Apr 17, 2009, 8:19am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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I think Marcel hit it on the head there, we use to have truePlay where a viewer outside of tS was available. I find it valuable for optional way of fast rendering for a video and can also be useful for testing ideas and concepts out in a more visual way without having to have alot of rendering time.
When I talk about peoples, not to mention the designer and TS users who benefit real time for their work. I talk about commercial opportunities using real time TS (for example: create a standard from a TS file that can be integrated into a web page to do a web 3d). |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 17, 2009, 1:09pm
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Total Posts: 1496
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realtime render will start to become interesting the minute Microsoft integrates it into windows and into the explorer....... |
Post by transient // Apr 17, 2009, 1:44pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Currently, no external application use the benefits of "TS7 real time". Virtual Earth does not use the real time rendering engine of TS. I have trouble understanding why make extraordinary tools that have no real utility for external use.
Yep, this is why I said we still have no idea what kind of app truespace is as of now. Parva and I have been asking for exe support for ages, but caligari shows little interest.
I think the makings of a great tool are there in workspace, especially for games creation. But the "Virtual Earth Project" isn't games. So then what is truespace?
I know I bought a platform for vray rendering. What I got was.......a free "something".:confused::confused:
realtime render will start to become interesting the minute Microsoft integrates it into windows and into the explorer.......
Will this happen? 3d browser plug-ins have been notorious failures so far, even silverlight doesn't seem to have much 3d support. I think with the problems MS have with being sued for it's Vista requirements (I think this is bs btw), that this is probabaly a long way off. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 18, 2009, 11:32pm
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Total Posts: 2603
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I promised myself I wouldn't get into anymore of these types of conversations but I just can't help myself.
"Since we still have no idea what kind of app truespace is trying to be these days it's hard to compare"
"I have trouble understanding why make extraordinary tools that have no real utility for external use."
You guys are joking right? The folk at Caligari have been quite clear about what kind of app tS is trying to be - read the forums, specially many of Toms recent posts. "A 3d app for the web" - or words to that effect.
The real reason tS is hard to compare is because there are no other software packages out even remotely like it.
And as for 'no real utility for external use' - well no offence intended but you're just not thinking about it right.
Want a quick and easy 3d button or label or divider for your web page? Fire up workspace model something cool render it using RT, LW or anything else that tS can work with and hey presto. Unique, original 3d bits and bobs to put in your web page.
Want to whip up a 3d animated .gif? tS is ideal for these. Want to make models for an infinite number of 3d uses that don't require photorealism or caustics or ray-tracing? WS RT renders are great for this. Want photorealism, caustics, GI and so on - again tS can produce these as well.
Just because you haver a narrow perspective of what you think tS can do does not mean that there are not other perspectives.
A fortnight ago a friend was visiting - she saw me working on my website and asked what software I was using - I replied tS. She offered me a job right there on the spot making unique 3d decorations like this one
http://wizitch.com/images/dividers756x73.jpg intended for use on a black web page.
I received another job offer to make a cartoony 3d monkey character as a marketing device for a local company selling baby products - they wanted a cute pose-able monkey to liven up their printed brochures - no interest in ray-tracing, caustics, photorealism. Their only brief was that it could be used in to create static images of the same character in a range of poses and that the character was cute to appeal to kids. trueSpace Workspace character modelling and posing tools made this type of job almost ridiculously easy.
"real-time render will start to become interesting the minute Microsoft integrates it into windows and into the explorer......." Again no offence intended but this is simply rubbish!! Real-time rendering is a tool for illustration, animation, product visualisation, training, advertising, blah, blah, blah. It's uses are limited only by the imagination of the user!. For real-time rendering to be 'interesting' to any specific individual that individual needs to pay some interest.
Again I don't mean to be offencive (although you can choose to take all the offence you want no matter how I word my opinion). Some of you guys need to get out a little - take in some 'real world' for a bit. The only people who give a flying fart about ray-tracing, photo realistic, caustics and what breed of renderer was used are 3d enthusiasts - the rest of the world ? Well frankly my dears they don't give a damn.
As long as it 'looks' 3d, as long as it looks good the real world mostly doesn't care. Non-3d folk - like my neighbour and my sister and my partners brothers ex's kids look at my website and get just as excited over the divider .gif above as they do over pictures I've made that have won prizes and accolades from 3d geeks.
I apologise if my tone is a bit harsh - I intend no offence to anyone. I can't help thinking that if some folk put as much energy into finding practical ways to use tS right now as it is as they put into bewailing the lack of confidential business information and "magic render buttons" there would be a lot less moaning around here. |
Post by marcel // Apr 19, 2009, 2:48am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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It is useless to remind ourselves every opportunity to TS. I use TS since version 1 and I use it professionally. My only question was "what use for external real time". I spoke about the usefulness of real time only and I have no answer. curious to see how people do not like the criticism of TS. It is this that makes progress. Who has an example of the use of real time to share without the need of TS or trueplay? We can only exchange videos on youtube but it does not show the interest of real time technology to non-users of TS. it is the differences between TS real time and flash or java. TS real time remains a closed system. TS is an extraordinary tool for designers, that is why I use it. But the real time can not be operated outside of my company. I would like to show TS real time but I must use java for that. |
Post by transient // Apr 19, 2009, 2:59am
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Does the node editor in Wirefusion remind you of the LE and script editor in workspace, Marcel?
I haven't used WF in a while but to me it's very reminescent of Workspace. I still don't understand why exe support is missing in workspace, the market is definitely there. A browser plug-in would be the icing on the cake.
People are paying thousands for similar functions in WF, and WF doesn't have microsft behind it. |
Post by frootee // Apr 19, 2009, 3:04am
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Isn't 'real time' is used for 3D Visualization for, say, petroleum-hunting applications?
I do not know for sure, but I thought it was. I presume the systems used for this type of application would be very expensive. It would be good to have a low cost alternative. |
Post by transient // Apr 19, 2009, 3:09am
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Lol, maybe.
I'm just talking about the ability to have real-time walk-throughs for architecture, specifically. But other design products can also benefit.
It's a growing industry. Have a look at the gallery for quest3d or wirefusion (there are a few others).
Truespace's benefit is that it has the pedigree of being a 3d app proper, so some things are easier (I believe Parva has said as much). Like I said, I don't understand why it isn't in ts already. |
Post by marcel // Apr 19, 2009, 3:41am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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here is a real time with animated objet from truespace. You can rotate the hand whith the mouse. 3d, textures and animation are exported from TS to Wirefusion (without change anything) and put into the web. It is that kind of app i would like directly from workspace to web.
http://www.crea-vision.fr/test/hand.htm |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 19, 2009, 3:49am
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Total Posts: 1496
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"real-time render will start to become interesting the minute Microsoft integrates it into windows and into the explorer......." Again no offence intended but this is simply rubbish!! Real-time rendering is a tool for illustration, animation, product visualisation, training, advertising, blah, blah, blah. It's uses are limited only by the imagination of the user!. For real-time rendering to be 'interesting' to any specific individual that individual needs to pay some interest.
Again I don't mean to be offencive (although you can choose to take all the offence you want no matter how I word my opinion). Some of you guys need to get out a little - take in some 'real world' for a bit. The only people who give a flying fart about ray-tracing, photo realistic, caustics and what breed of renderer was used are 3d enthusiasts - the rest of the world ? Well frankly my dears they don't give a damn.
.
Wiz you simply didnt understand why I said this !
Noone is going to download Truespace to look at a realtime scene ...IN REALTIME! Thats why it would be good that you could look at the scene
and fly around it from within Windows and Explorer ! REALTIME not workspace
rendered !;)
Peter |
Post by frootee // Apr 19, 2009, 3:58am
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Total Posts: 2667
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Well I'll dare say, perhaps this is why Microsoft is interested in truespace. |
Post by jrboddie // Apr 19, 2009, 4:08am
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Total Posts: 91
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Isn't the plan for a player to be released when the bug fix for 7.6 is finished? |
Post by transient // Apr 19, 2009, 4:12am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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here is a real time with animated objet from truespace. You can rotate the hand whith the mouse. 3d, textures and animation are exported from TS to Wirefusion (without change anything) and put into the web. It is that kind of app i would like directly from workspace to web.
That's pretty cool. :)
Well I'll dare say, perhaps this is why Microsoft is interested in truespace.
Well, if that's the case, then why not say so? It's not like this is top secret technology. A simple "yes we have exe support planned" or "no, but we have something better planned" would be simple. There's no reason not to do this.
It makes no sense. No, I suspect microsoft's interest in truespace has nothing to do with our needs or wishes. I guess time will tell who's right. ;) |
Post by marcel // Apr 19, 2009, 4:20am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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Isn't the plan for a player to be released when the bug fix for 7.6 is finished?
1 - finish TS (easier to use for newbies)
2 - create a free player for the web real time
3 - with free TS, many peoples create content to make the standard essential
4 - sell licenses to shop on line and companys
5 - create a "pro-TS" for businesses (not free)
Same marketing than adobe with the pdf ;) |
Post by frootee // Apr 19, 2009, 4:54am
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Total Posts: 2667
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well apparently MS's policy is to say nothing until they know it works.
I dunno; just conjecturing.
yeah, the idea was to release a new trueplay after 7.61 is released.
But I guess we'll see about that too. |
Post by marcel // Apr 19, 2009, 5:37am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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I know that microsoft want to create real shops as Apple. The shop in real time presented on the site Caligari is not merely to look pretty. everyone know but everyone must not say. :D |
Post by noko // Apr 19, 2009, 9:01am
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Total Posts: 684
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For me, making real time content or should I say making content that others can use in real time in tS is restricted to tS only right now. That is the issue I think is being addressed here. WS real time is great for a wide number of uses due to speed and quality level up to a degree, extreme flexibility and programmability of WS. To take that outside of tS is the problem. |
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