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character creation
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character creation // Roundtable
Post by tatts // Mar 22, 2009, 5:53am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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I am trying to create a character for a project that i am working on. but i have a question. most models of characters i've seen lately are mostly made up of a single mesh, older characters used to be made up of several parts. What are the benefits of modeling a single mesh over several parts.
the thing i don't care for using a solid mesh, is that when it comes time to rig and animate the character, the elbow/ knee / hip /shoulder area....and so on, i find often look real ugly when you animate them. like the elbows for example. when you bend the arm, my forearm gets thinned out and makes the elbow look odd. I have figured out a way to clean this up abit through the geometry and how i model those areas. but they never do look quite right.
it is the same with clothing, often i see people design the clothing right from the characters mesh rather than design the clothing as seperate objects. But doing it this way is no good if you plan to create a character that can change the clothing.
Im using dark basic pro as my engine. One thing that i've noticed about DBPro is that, to have transparency on your object, the object that is recieving the transparent texture has to be a seperate object. Otherwise you end up with transparency issues. so if i were to use a transparent texture for the hair, the hair would need to be its own object.
Would'nt it be easier just to model everything sorta seperate anyway. like for example model a head and two arms and then just model out the shirt/ pants shoes and hair seperate so they can be changed?
Or is it better to have a solid mesh and model the clothing out from the mesh.
Ooor have a solid mesh and model clothing as seperate object over the character mesh.
Im really not sure what the best technique here would be, but i thought that maybe it would be best to model the head and arms and the models the clothing as seperate objects. I havent spent much time on characters but plan to spend loads of time on it. so before doing so i was hoping that i can get some advice as this is not an area i am very experienced at. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 22, 2009, 6:39am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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A single mesh is definitely the best way because you don't get seams. It takes more care in geometry around the creasing areas and you'll need to weight paint to adjust bone influence for nice looking animation. Things would be nicer if the morph animation exported since then you'd get correct muscle bulging and could correct for bones animation issues, but that's not the case.
Modeling the clothing directly into the mesh is also better because you don't have to worry about parts of the mesh poking through the clothing. You can still change the outfit by changing the textures and using different meshes as needed.
Hair is really the only thing that is really convenient to have as a separate mesh for swapping out during customization.
You're best bet is to examine how other 3D games have implemented their characters. World of Warcraft is a great example since you can zoom the view in and spin around the character. You'll find that they use a single mesh for the character body + head, another mesh for the shoulder pads, a mesh for the gloves, a mesh for the boots, and finally a mesh for hair or hoods/helmets/hats, etc. The rest is all done by changing the textures. |
Post by tatts // Mar 22, 2009, 6:55am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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thank you jack,
the weight paint is something i really need to learn. I have already made my character as a single mesh anyway so that is good. Just having no idea about the weight paint did'nt help when i tried to animate the character. it made it look pretty ugly. I did fix the parts like the elbows and knees so that they will look cleaner without the weight paint, but the shoulders are one of my problem areas and this is where i think im mainly going to need the paint.
well i guess im going to keep going the way I have been then. Do you know of any tutorials that show how I should be designing the creases for the shoulders and such? |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 22, 2009, 6:58am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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One of the cool new features in 7.6 lets you convert soft selection to weight paint values. I find that's the easiest way to accurately set the weights. It's been a few months since I messed with it, thought. :o |
Post by trueBlue // Mar 22, 2009, 7:00am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Heidi created a video here in the FAQ thread:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=73011&postcount=17 |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 22, 2009, 7:10am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Topology research? Go to the masters... http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=25&t=38469
Want to learn in TS and send a few dollars to a fellow TS user, look up Nowherebrain's stuff, he does a very nice job with his modeling and the tutorials he makes.
Rich |
Post by tatts // Mar 22, 2009, 7:33am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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thanks guys for your help. I'll deffinately read through that thread rich it looks interesting.
does nowherebrain have a web site or a place where i can see his work and tutorials? |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 22, 2009, 7:41am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Here it is !
http://www.scatteredpixel.com/ |
Post by tatts // Mar 22, 2009, 8:40am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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thank you RAYMAN
I had a look and his tutorial is a nice price (very cheap) so i might just get it.
Not sure if his model is too high poly for a game model though.
Anybody know about how many polys should used for a game charactor?
the project i am working on is only going to have one main playable character. the charactor is going to be played in 3rd person and needs to be very flexible. sorta like a gymnist flexible, so im not going to want to be too cheesey on the polys. But at the same time I don't want to many where it will be to hard to work with for animations.
I plan to take close up shots of this charactor as well, so again I don't want to be cheesy. I think using around 3000 poly's might be sufficient enough for detail. you think this might be too many? |
Post by mrbones // Mar 22, 2009, 9:10am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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As far as clothes we should be able to attach or drape clothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H56A9xss8zw&feature=related
I dont think trueSPace cloth is this advanced yet, It is a pain even in Maya,
Blender clothes looks really nice. Like above video. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 22, 2009, 9:29am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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3000 polys has always seemed to be a good number for me.
You could definitely go more though if you're not going to have a lot of characters displaying at once, in which case I'd say 8000 would be fine as well. You don't want to add polys just for the sake of adding polys though. Make sure that you are efficient in your use of geometry so that the extra geometry actually adds interest and detail to the model. |
Post by tatts // Mar 22, 2009, 10:55am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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That's very interesting to know mr.bones, I have blender, so i will have to eventually look into that.....the dress on the charater in the video is very nicely done. :)
@ jack
yes it will mainly be one playable character. if I add more characters, I am sure that i can get away with lower poly for the NPC's as they will be more just standing around and being spectators anyway (No real close ups or interaction). |
Post by Igor K Handel // Mar 23, 2009, 11:46am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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I too am trying to get to grips with what makes good topology.
I stumbled upon this self help workflow aid that has turned on a few lightbulbs here.
An example... I make myself a test leg or knee mesh and stick a number of loops around the knee. Then build the skeleton for it and bind it to the mesh.
The learning aid bit is to now make morph sliders of the verts in groups at the back/ front of the knee. IE I can reposition the loops / angles just by moving the morph sliders.
Grab the rig and check the deformation. move sliders and see how it deforms now. Quick way to visually learn what positioning works better. The only downside is the mesh needs unbound to add/ remove loops or the weight painting gets messed up. Maybe I need to make copies first with varying loop numbers. Morph is also useful for re adding lost volume for back of knees / elbows etc too. Muscles possible too.
Cheers
IK |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 23, 2009, 2:02pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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This may help you out IK:
Example limb deformation link (http://www.poopinmymouth.com/process/tips/limb_deformations.gif)
It's from:
Ben Mathis's website (http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/tutorial.htm) |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 23, 2009, 6:21pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Ok, I know, I am starting to sound like a broken record.... http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=25&t=38469
The reason I recommend this thread? It's all there, not in a nice neat organized pile but it is all there and just waiting for you to go thru a absorb as much as you can.
If you are just looking for good examples of geometry to test, let me know I have some things you could play around with.
Rich |
Post by tatts // Mar 24, 2009, 1:49am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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I just found this thread and found it interesting.
These are from the the guy who created the tomb raider models he also did models for GUN as well as others.
http://www.pig-brain.com/tut02/tut02_01.htm
http://www.pig-brain.com/tut01/tut01_01.htm |
Post by Igor K Handel // Mar 24, 2009, 8:51am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Thanks for the links guys, all useful stuff. Now if there were an extra 6 hours in a day I might just squeeze it all in. :D
IK |
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