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Caligari's future?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Caligari's future? // Roundtable
Post by Plum // Mar 3, 2009, 4:16pm
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Plum
Total Posts: 39
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Hiya.
As far as other 3d apps like the standard industry one's . how many people do you know that can just put out $7000 on a single program. I know I could'nt. Even the standard program for a free lancer, Which the most common one that I know about is lightwave. Again has a price tag of about $1600 I think, could be wrong on that. There is Blender that can put out some very nice stuff, but the learning curve sucks. For Tuespace to be now free....WOW :)
Lightwave (which I just bought last week), is about $1000. It's only $600 as a companion upgrade (you have one of 15 programs; but no, tS isn't one of them any more). Lightwave is at v9.6, but in 'transition' to a new version/program tentatively called "LightwaveX" or "Lightwave CORE". If you grab LW now, before the 31st, you will automatically be purchasing LW9.6 + LightwaveCORE for a year after it's release; you also get in on a direct link to the Newtek creator guys to help shape the future of CORE.
Anyway...with regards to tS & Microsoft. All I can say is I'm about as thrilled at that as I was with Autodesk buying Softimage (fyi, I did NOT upgrade my XSI when offered...and I've been using Softimage since 1998...). ;) |
Post by nowherebrain // Mar 3, 2009, 4:34pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Yes, exciting times(big yawn). |
Post by transient // Mar 3, 2009, 4:40pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Heh heh...... |
Post by tatts // Mar 3, 2009, 5:23pm
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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Yeah well!! I'm not sure how i'd feel having been here for "years" and having "Spent tons of money into truespace" just for Microsoft in the end to buy it out and throw it on the net for free. However I did purchase gamespace and still have it installed to this day and still have no regrets of buying it.
For me, yeah it was exciting. You see, Truespace may not meet your needs as this super high poly, super duper rendering software the you super duper modelers oh so need. But it most certainly meets my needs as a low poly modeler for game models. And you know what the greatest thing was, I got an even better program than what I HAD. AND I GOT IT FOR FREE......LMAO
THANKS CALIGARI......:D |
Post by transient // Mar 3, 2009, 5:29pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Gamespace was practically unusable it crashed so much. Even when I told Caligari why this was happening, and what tools were to blame, they never fixed it.
You might want to avoid mentioning gamespace in future if you want to actually help Caligari avoid the seemingly inevitable loss of it's reputation. |
Post by tatts // Mar 3, 2009, 6:15pm
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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lol yeah I had my share of it crashing on me too. Mostly when I was adding edges, and getting into rigging models for animation. I Don't have too many problems any more though. Mostly cause I pay much more attention to what im doing when I add edges, and the fact I UV/texture/RIG and animate using other software. :D Not to mention, that after using gamespace or any other 3d software for that matter, I've learned to save and save again.
As far as what I use and need it for. It is well powerful enough as is. Any improvments is just a bonus for me. :banana:
Reputation? Among game modelers. You never know it might even pick up abit. Today infact I wrote my first tutorial and posted it on the game creators website, it was only on how to set up a scene in truespace but still. I feel if people there knew about truespace and knew how to use it to their advantage, We may see more people there using it. and for that I have no problems spending some time to write tutorials for them. |
Post by transient // Mar 3, 2009, 8:50pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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The rigging bugs in GS from memory were a flow on from the mesh bug that could creep in seemingly at any time. It was insiduous, because you may think that you had a clean mesh, but it had duplicate vertices hiding in it.
This caused puppetmaster to freak out. It may have had other bugs, but I didn't have too many problems with it if I had a clean mesh (at least I think......I was using blender a lot more at that stage). My workaround was to import the corrupt GS mesh into blender and do the remove doubles command. Unfortunately, doing this every ten minutes wasn't fun.
I guess this is all moot now. Ironically, 6.6 with polytools is probably the most stable modeling tool I've ever used. |
Post by marcel // Mar 3, 2009, 10:49pm
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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If Tom was not on this forum, I feel that Caligari no longer exist. Thank Tom! I do not ask me more questions about the future of TS since my last thread (same like this). I prefer to wait. In the meantime, I take what I have. with computers, you can spend your life waiting for a better world and do nothing at all.
My advice: If you can't update your soft, update your brain and enjoy what you have now! :) |
Post by transient // Mar 3, 2009, 11:46pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Well truespace classic is still my favourite 3d app, particularly with an updated 3delight plug-in (hint hint :D). Very versatile program and the most underrated 3dapp I've ever used, especially for illustration.
I would kill for stable metaballs (I mean 6.6 ;)), but apart form that it's still very nice. |
Post by Nez // Mar 4, 2009, 1:32am
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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I agree with Marcel in many ways - I'm glad we see plenty of Tom and it reassures me that there is still some support from Caligari...
To my mind, part of the reason for the frustration is that - despite the comments baove about Caligari not discussing their future plans - Roman used to do exactly that in his Captain's Blog; he showed us features in devlopement, tantalised us with things to come. Now that's gone (and Tom appears to have indicated that's as good as gone) we get no information on the future, which is back to the 'formal policy' - but not the way it used to be...
There are clearly some very sensitve issues that are worrying folks - will we have a decent offline render engine come v8 for example? It's clear that DX can produce amazing results but I don't know if more than a handful of people currently know how to get that standard of finish using it.
For me personally, I'm not particularly worried for my own tS use as I'm reasonably content where I am - I started with coverdiscs of tS 1, 2 and 3 before paying for 4 and 5. Could never have afforded to move beyond that if 7.6 wasn't given away - but I'm only using it as 6.6 anyway because I can't use WS for hardware reasons (and would be reluctant to anyway as my familarity is with model side and LW materials/rendering). So I think I'm unlikely to be upgrading further any time soon unless the next version is free too - and if it kills model side then I'll be sticking where I am anyway...
It's sad to see so many upset people though, and I really wish someone could take over the Captain's Blog if Roman can't do it - this thread is the first time I've seen confirmation of him being so busy he can't do it anymore - at least that's an explanation of sorts... |
Post by transient // Mar 4, 2009, 1:32pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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It's sad to see so many upset people though, and I really wish someone could take over the Captain's Blog if Roman can't do it - this thread is the first time I've seen confirmation of him being so busy he can't do it anymore - at least that's an explanation of sorts...
This is true.
Maybe there's nothing to really say, anyway. Truespace can't get any freer, and with no renderer what's the point? I just want to know whether vray will finally be made into the product it should have been two years ago - for the benefit of those who did pay for this software in good faith when it was heavily promoted by Caligari.
I guess we'll have to wait until the next patch. |
Post by Steinie // Mar 4, 2009, 1:42pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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This is true too!
We paid their salaries before MicroSofty did. So patches and bug fixes should have been delivered before a fake Store was built.
P.S. Should I remind everyone that some of us actually bought trueSpace and VRay?
So not getting fixes are kind of personal... |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 4, 2009, 1:50pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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This is true too!
We paid their salaries before MicroSofty did. So patches and bug fixes should have been delivered before a fake Store was built.
P.S. Should I remind everyone that some of us actually bought trueSpace and VRay?
So not getting fixes are kind of personal...
Kind of like that Sony BetaMax I bought for $1800.00 back in the 80s. :D |
Post by transient // Mar 4, 2009, 2:07pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Yes, but then betamax was actually better than vhs..........;) |
Post by TigreStripe // Mar 4, 2009, 10:16pm
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TigreStripe
Total Posts: 75
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This is true too!
We paid their salaries before MicroSofty did. So patches and bug fixes should have been delivered before a fake Store was built.
P.S. Should I remind everyone that some of us actually bought trueSpace and VRay?
So not getting fixes are kind of personal...
Yes. $1000 USD to be exact. Work out what it costs at AUD and keeping in mind that I bought it on the a 12 month payment. It worked out to over 1100 AUD.
But I'm not mad. I don't have it installed at the moment until I upgrade my computer as it struggled on my Intel P640. |
Post by TigreStripe // Mar 4, 2009, 10:19pm
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TigreStripe
Total Posts: 75
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3DVia existed before the MS acquisition of Caligari. It existed as a means to put models onto Virtual Earth before the acquisition of Caligari. So it is by no means new! It was already there making models for VE prior to the addition of VE export from tS.
It's a very different tool from tS, so the two are complimentary in terms of achieving different ends.
I am a programmer Rayman, just a mainframe programmer ;) Used to work at Rolls-Royce as an Analyst / Programmer on IBM mainframes many moons ago. Have dabbled with C# and such, but, it is not my calling now, would much rather be evangelizing tS to those who don't know of it, helping those with tS who do know of it (that's the bunch of you here on the forums!), and helping test and make noise about features and abilities etc.
As for the future, as noted in an earlier posting of mine, long before the Caligari acquisition we had (and so still have) the policy, formed from long experience, of not mentioning anything until it is just about out. So no comments from me on that, as everyone who knows us will expect :)
HTH!
Tom
Yes. Isn't it ironic that one of the primary reasons why relationships have trouble is because of lack of communication. |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 5, 2009, 2:09am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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This is true too!
We paid their salaries before MicroSofty did. So patches and bug fixes should have been delivered before a fake Store was built.
P.S. Should I remind everyone that some of us actually bought trueSpace and VRay?
So not getting fixes are kind of personal...
Is this actually true? I think it is a misconception to equate a customers purchase with the paying of their workers salaries. That is two totally and mathematically separate transactions - two complately different exchanges.
Customer and company make agreement - ie exchange an agreed amount of money for an agreed item, object or service. Customers gives X dollars to company, in return company gives Y commodity to customer - end of transaction. Two objects of agreed equal value (ie your money, their product) have been exchanged.
In a completely separate transaction Worker A performs an agreed contracted set of tasks in exchange for money from a company - again this is a one for one agreement. The company pays the worker, not the customer. These are two totally distinct transactions and it is misleading and incorrect to say that a customer pays their wages.
It might be remotely applicable but of dubious real world value to say that the profit from a customers purchase goes toward paying workers but lets look at that. Rounding things off say I spend $1000 and buy some software, so we can say the company is $1000 better off - but from this amount must be taken tax, running costs, marketing costs, operating costs... and oh yeah, salaries for the workers. Once those costs are all accounted for how much of that $1000 actually pays a single worker?
Remember the workers contract is with the company, not the customer.
Quoting Tigrestripe; "Isn't it ironic that one of the primary reasons why relationships have trouble is because of lack of communication".
This is another common misconception - it's not a lack of communication it's a lack of understanding that causes trouble in relationships. It's the lack of 'effective communication' but communication requires effective understanding from BOTH parties.
Caligari has been very effective with their end of their communication - They've told us that they cannot tell us more until they know things are definite. Is it possible some of the tS users here have not been as effective in their understanding of what that means?
Khai just wants a simple answer - the answer is simple, they can't tell you anything!
This is self-evident - if they could tell us anything, they would. They haven't told us anything, therefore they can't tell us. Frustrating as it is that's about as simple as pie! Easy as cake? |
Post by Steinie // Mar 5, 2009, 2:30am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Wizard, ..."Rounding things off say I spend $1000 and buy some software, so we can say the company is $1000 better off - but from this amount must be taken tax, running costs, marketing costs, operating costs... and oh yeah, salaries for the workers. Once those costs are all accounted for how much of that $1000 actually pays a single worker?"
You said it too.
Caligari sold software and had expenses. The sale of software, ProTeam Membership, and Tutorials were I believe their only income. Sure I helped paid for other parts of the Company too like their electric bill, rent, insurance etc.
Now they appear to be a development and consulting department of MicroSoft. They no longer need to sell anything. |
Post by Johny // Mar 5, 2009, 5:28am
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Johny
Total Posts: 672
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This is true too!
We paid their salaries before MicroSofty did. So patches and bug fixes should have been delivered before a fake Store was built.
P.S. Should I remind everyone that some of us actually bought trueSpace and VRay?
So not getting fixes are kind of personal...
Is it the same meaning that we pay Microsoft worker salary because we use Windows.:o |
Post by prodigy // Mar 5, 2009, 6:36am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Im bored... |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 5, 2009, 7:08am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Im bored...
Augusto I´m not......
I just see that the system of not even discussing bugs and ironing them out
causes frustration. We see patches for windows every few days to 1 month
and the computer downloading them automatically.
I use a software that has a full release every year and an open beta for every user that wants to use it.... and that system works. If a very big bug
becomes evident its ironed out imediatly BUT many times its not a bug but user error (like an open mesh with a hole etc. ) We get the feedback whats wrong and what we can do to avoid these problems.I dont want to discuss
new features...... and dont find that the most important thing about the discussion. I dont realy care about whats in or doesnt finally make it in ... or
bla bla...... I just want customer service and ie all the Vray bugs resolved
from TS.....
maybe we will get TS 8 sometimes only to find that it has other things that we cant get to work and I an NOT TALKING ABOUT NEW FEATURES
just when will we see patches that iron out the problems.
On the other hand its also the users ..... how many are consistently testing
Yafary now....?It needs our support and testing....
I hope Truespaces future is with much more patches like its normal for Windows...:p |
Post by adriani // Mar 5, 2009, 7:27am
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adriani
Total Posts: 89
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I totally agree with RAYMAN and Steinie said...
And now the Yafary...it never will be like real vray or maxwell render...
Is good if all continue with vray / the real light. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 5, 2009, 7:31am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I totally agree with RAYMAN and Steinie said...
And now the Yafary...it never will be like real vray or maxwell render...
Is good if all continue with vray / the real light.
Isn't it Yafray?
Ya fary would be something else entirely.
(prods adriani) |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 5, 2009, 7:52am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Isn't it Yafray?
Ya fary would be something else entirely.
(prods adriani)
No to be exact its Yaf(a)ray.....:p
It was yafray until version no 0.0.9 and now has an a that was implemented
to show the jump to the new version...
http://www.yafaray.org/ |
Post by tatts // Mar 5, 2009, 9:52am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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What exactly is Vray and Yafaray? people talk about them as a render engine, But I've always thought of them as some type a lightmapper. I Never used any of these, I take it these are more for artist illistrations? And I take it these probably could'nt be used for lightmapping game environments?
I've downloaded the Yafaray. But have no clue what to do with it. :)
Sorry this might sound stupid too but.....What does the term "SDS" mean? |
Post by TomG // Mar 5, 2009, 10:24am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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SDS is subdivision surfaces. This is a way of smoothing out a model, so you can build a low poly mesh, and this defines a smooth high poly mesh. Check the manual, the Organics course, etc, for information :)
V-Ray and Yafaray are render engines. They take the definition of a scene's geometry, materials, lighting, and turn it into a 2D image. Of course the real-time render engines that you use to do your modeling do the same :) So there are different kinds of render engines, but they are all render engines even though they are offline or online (each is better for certain things of course).
Render engines can make light maps, but we don't have access to those features in V-Ray and Yafaray for tS. V-Ray for 3DS Max does have the ability to generate light maps. Unsure if Yafaray has support for generating light maps or not.
GILES has the ability to generate light maps also, you could export from tS to GILES for that.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by tatts // Mar 5, 2009, 11:39am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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SDS! lol, I've should of known. But then again I never use this feature. I like to keep poly's a low as possible for game content.
Thanks for explaining about the renderers Tom. I know about gile's Which is free now. Used to be a popular item on the gamecreators site. |
Post by JimB // Mar 5, 2009, 11:58am
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JimB
Total Posts: 341
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SDS is really useful or should I say essential when modeling round shapes it is a must,once the shape has been acheived a bit of creative welding of vertices to reduce the polycount keeping a close eye on the overall shape.
Heres a wip of a car I am modeling,I really appreciated SDS. |
Post by tatts // Mar 5, 2009, 12:16pm
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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That car looks very nice Jim :) ,I like the subdivsion because it really does help to round shapes out with much less effort. But im not sure how SDS would help as far as modeling time goes when you have to do all that welding afterwards. To Me it just seems that would end in a whole lot of extra work.
Also, on the gamecreators site you said in my post that using an inverted cube would have been easier to use to set up a scene. Would you mind explaining how you go about setting up your scenes? I would apprecaite it :)
I tried last night to set a scene up using the inverted cube. How do set it up while keeping the pics correct aspect ratio? Is your inverted cube the same size as the model? So far it seems to be more of a hassle I think. Any hints or advise is much appreciated :) |
Post by tatts // Mar 5, 2009, 1:02pm
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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I think using SDS would be much better if I could use it like this...... Make a low poly model, clone it, use sds on the clone, UV map both models the same.
And use a (render to texture) like 3ds max has. which I don't think ts has.
(of course this would only be an ambience that is applied) then take the nicely rendered texture and apply it to the low poly model. I say this way would be faster and better because, to UV map a vehicle is very easy whether it is hi poly or low.
just thinking of it, another way you could do this in TS is to add an ambient lighting to your model in TS (is this possible? I havent played much with the lights to know) then taking snapshots of your vehicle in each ortho view, and create a texture from the snapshots then apply it to your models. this way there's no need to reduce any poly's, you just have two models.
I Say use ambient textures, because they are great for making Normal maps. |
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