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Caligari's future?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Caligari's future? // Roundtable
Post by tatts // Mar 1, 2009, 8:40pm
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tatts
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@RAYMAN,,,,This is pretty cool! I was just reading through that DARKBASIC pro forums and someone today just posted an even easier solution to getting sketchup into truespace. It is the same method as the BLENDER tutorial for extracting the dae file. but instead of using blender to convert to the obj...
SOURCEFORGE.NET had a small little program called meshlab that seems to love these dae files. it is an importer/exporter and yes it has the obj exporter as well as 3ds and a few more...
I just tried it out and it worked flawlessly with the texture intact. I even imported it into fragmotion, and exported it to .X with no troubles as well. |
Post by Humdinger // Mar 2, 2009, 2:41am
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Humdinger
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Well... I know I am giving this whole mess till the end of the month to finally get some news / updates /patches.
I have no clue what the heck is happening ... as from my 'laymen' perspective it seems with all of Microsoft's resources that many of the problems / bugs we all have with the current 7.6 would have been quickly addressed.
But, they have not
Sadly I stand by my original feelings - that TS was/is going to become a 'simple' modeling tool ... good for boxes and buildings and not much more.
Assuming you DO NOT like having your skeletal rigs shake and quiver and pop into strange poses...and please no more talk Caligari ... just action.
Still…still no real 3D paint tools by the way – current tools are just toys compared to other apps (in the same price point by the way).
PS – I like many others were 'spot on' regarding all the time and effort wasted on V-Ray. It was not the Lightworks engine that was the biggest problem.
It was a lack of a handful of modeling tools and a truly 'childish' implementation of bones that held TS back and nothing more.
But as previous poster said so well…. What do I know.:) |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 3:45am
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TomG
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3DVia existed before the MS acquisition of Caligari. It existed as a means to put models onto Virtual Earth before the acquisition of Caligari. So it is by no means new! It was already there making models for VE prior to the addition of VE export from tS.
It's a very different tool from tS, so the two are complimentary in terms of achieving different ends.
I am a programmer Rayman, just a mainframe programmer ;) Used to work at Rolls-Royce as an Analyst / Programmer on IBM mainframes many moons ago. Have dabbled with C# and such, but, it is not my calling now, would much rather be evangelizing tS to those who don't know of it, helping those with tS who do know of it (that's the bunch of you here on the forums!), and helping test and make noise about features and abilities etc.
As for the future, as noted in an earlier posting of mine, long before the Caligari acquisition we had (and so still have) the policy, formed from long experience, of not mentioning anything until it is just about out. So no comments from me on that, as everyone who knows us will expect :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Steinie // Mar 2, 2009, 3:58am
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Steinie
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Who ever said "No news is good news" should be kicked...:p |
Post by nowherebrain // Mar 2, 2009, 10:37am
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nowherebrain
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So, a funeral Tom? |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 11:26am
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TomG
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Why would there be a funeral? Seems an odd thing to say. Just the same message we have always said for the last many years, well prior to acquisition, that we don't discuss future plans. This has been an on-going question every version of tS since I can recall, back to tS4, hehe.
I was simply pointing out that 3DVia is NOT new as someone here said it was and was drawing conclusions for tS based on this new appearance - but since it is not a new appearance, and in fact predated tS, then different conclusions may be necessary :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by tatts // Mar 2, 2009, 12:07pm
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tatts
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yeah I personally thought 3dvia was a new thing. I mean they advertize it as new. The quote that I posted here was a copy and paste from their own site which is what actually led me to believe that it was new. Also the fact that I have never noticed it before nor even heard of it.
As far as TRUESPACE goes, Yes myself I thought they were going to lean towards the virtual earth thing with it more and that it was the reason behind buying it. I guess I can say I started thinking that because of caligari advertizing the whole virtual earth thing on the front page.
Besides at the time when truespace started annnoucing the virtual earth thing. I was still playing with gamespace and the forums they had. So I never really read to much on the subject. Just assumed I guess. LOL |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 12:12pm
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TomG
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3DVia did an update to their tools recently, they do have new functionality in there as of about 3 months ago or so. But it's an upgrade, rather than a whole new product - they were always there providing 3D models for VE before tS also did that :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by nowherebrain // Mar 2, 2009, 5:08pm
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nowherebrain
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Well when no news is released(no new NT PR)speculation will ensue....we have all gotten used to news in the last year...follow this up with a Microsoft acquisition and no news...and bam! The user sees it as death. WHat I was really saying is how angry I am to be left in the dark, if it is not dead why NO news at all? |
Post by kena // Mar 2, 2009, 8:01pm
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kena
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I'm a patient man. Check my posts. I'm optimistic. I try to find the best side of what is happening.
But nothing is happening.
From the non-beta tester side of the house anyway.
Could we get a little bit of information? Is there not any complete tool that has passed beta-test and you KNOW will go in the next release?
Anything would help.
(see there. even I am asking for information on my favorite 3D program.) |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 2, 2009, 10:57pm
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RAYMAN
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Still…still no real 3D paint tools by the way – current tools are just toys compared to other apps (in the same price point by the way).
If the tools are only toys what are you guys waiting for then ?:confused:
I never waited for anything ... you just get what you need and work with
it. Theres plenty out there to explore and if the tools are good in TS
just use them....even if they are in the TS 6.6 side.
Do you guys think that TS 8 will have paint tools with more features then 3d coat or any specialised product ?
I personaly use the Trueparticles now but that doesnt mean you have to do
the whole project with one Software.....;) |
Post by Humdinger // Mar 3, 2009, 3:12am
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Humdinger
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If the tools are only toys what are you guys waiting for then ?:confused:
I never waited for anything ... you just get what you need and work with
it. )
Well Rayman like any member of a community or country we all have the right to 'vote' if you will.
Right now I see myself as batting 100%
V-Ray - over priced for most TS users - waste of time and resources
Bones - Never addressed properly by Caligari .. still ..much better but still sub-par.
Avatars / Second / Third / Fourth life - 'yawn'
Really poor / rushed documentation in many cases
Motion Capture is not animation
Company owned by MicroSoft yet I still can not get a clear answer why and if the application can not export my exact model and animations..which I see in my DX9 real-time view ... in a 100% compatible x-format file. complete...model..textures... and yeah.. bones animation. All with the click of a single button. Ready for import into whatever app I have that also supports x-format.
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PS..not an attempt to 'start' anything with you, so please do not misread tone of this post. Barring some developments I am out of here at the end of the month anyway. :)
So no need to fight or quote, especially if we are kicking around a classic 'debate'.. ( i.e 'Why use only one application' ).
PSS
Heck the only reason I seem to return lately is the mad work Clintonman has been doing with his import / export work.:D |
Post by transient // Mar 3, 2009, 3:54am
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There's no way that Caligari could ever compete with Blender or Messiah, both affordable and excellent animation tools.
Vray was Caligari's home run swing, and if they'd ever bothered to fix the bugs, it could have worked. |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 3, 2009, 4:05am
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Do not forget the free version of Houdini. All the power of the full price tool with limited rendering sizes. So the market is very full of full featured tools.
I still like TS though, too bad no one is talking about where it is going to be heading and when we might expect to see these things.
Rich
PS, I would like to add, my liking of TS is all about the future and the possibilities of the WS side, to me the Model side is a bit long in the tooth and ready for retirement :) I know I am in the minority there. |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 3, 2009, 4:35am
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RAYMAN
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I still like TS though, too bad no one is talking about where it is going to be heading and when we might expect to see these things.
Rich
I also still like Truespace too but we only know where we are heading to and not what Caligari is going to do.......
We dont get new soft nor answers and we have to live with that I´m afraid...
All we can do is use what is there already;)or what some of the awsome 3d party developers can do for us....
The fluid sim is a very good example of using other software for purposes
inside Truespace...... thats all we are going to get for the moment:p
and thats an awfull lot ! |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 3, 2009, 4:42am
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RichLevy
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I also still like Truespace too but we only know where we are heading to and not what Caligari is going to do.......
We dont get new soft nor answers and we have to live with that I´m afraid...
All we can do is use what is there already;)or what some of the awsome 3d party developers can do for us....
The fluid sim is a very good example of using other software for purposes
inside Truespace...... thats all we are going to get for the moment:p
and thats an awfull lot !
I agree with your point of view. TS future will be with the user's and the creative one's that make those cool tools for the rest of us to play with... For me though, the real power of TS is in the animation tools, till IK2 comes out I am not able to use TS in the way that I would like. So I keep wondering, are these things going to be released? I use TS most of the time when I want to play around and have some fun, till I need to animate characters, than I have to go to other programs. I look forward to the day I can do all of that inside TS :) I don't mind using other programs for particles effects I can do some great things in Houdini and After Effects so they more than compensate for TS's lack of those tools on the WS side.
It's all a matter of perspective :D
Rich |
Post by frank // Mar 3, 2009, 5:03am
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I can feel yer frustration, Mr. Humdinger! I agree on all points (especially a couple of those in particular.) ;-)
Lately I find myself just accepting the way things are headed, or have been headed for a while now. I kinda lost excitement with trueSpace's future when I realized the focus was on avatars, honestly.
I think Roman's inclination has always been toward realtime / collaboration / "3D For The Web Age". Although that is not my cup of iced tea, I have to hand it to Roman for his innovative way of thinking. In hanging around the tS community for 12 years or... 15... however many it's been now... I know the man has always been a forward-thinker, and I admire his enthusiasm.
Personally, though, I'm becoming more and more old-school these days... I still like to render character animation sequences out to flat frames and composite them in an editing application. Of course, I also like to work wood with a froe and scrub plane instead of power tools. So... maybe it's just my nature.
I like to think of it as doing my little part to preserve the "old ways". ;-)
For some reason I just refuse to leave trueSpace 6. Granted, companion plugins make it more comfortable to stick around. I'm talking, of course, about MotionStudio, PolyTools, u|v Cow, and a handful of other apps. Then Dribble came along and I was overjoyed. I saw it as offering powerful (not to mention extremely affordable) rendering capability for the toolset I'd grown comfortable with over the years.
I also have a few other reasons to hang with trueSpace...
...There's the community; I really like all of you guys! :-)
...trueSpace is the app I started with, so it has become my comfort zone. I try to pick up Blender at least once a year but give up 15 minutes after downloading it. trueSpace, for all its faults, is still the most intuitive 3D application I've used.
...I'm only a hobbyist. ...and I don't think tS was ever designed to take on the industry-standard apps.
...trueSpace forces you to think. Most would argue - and I respect the argument - that an artist shouldn't struggle with his tools. But there is something exciting in the discovery of workarounds.
I can feel the frustrations of my fellow tS'ers, Vinny/Humdinger, Oliver/OROE, and others who have reached the "I give up" point. (Tiles, you still hangin' in there? ;-) )
I have reached that point as well - as far as the new stuff. But I still like me some old trueSpace, so I'll keep working with that as long as I can. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 3, 2009, 5:34am
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Let me say this about that. Furthermore, I speculate that the beginning is always the start of something and the end indicates a pivot point of divine direction.
Lastly, we cannot know what we don't know only if we were not at the meeting previously scheduled in advance pending notification. |
Post by Finis // Mar 3, 2009, 6:12am
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Let me say this about that. Furthermore, I speculate that the beginning is always the start of something and the end indicates a pivot point of divine direction. Lastly, we cannot know what we don't know only if we were not at the meeting previously scheduled in advance pending notification.
LOL James. Makes me remember a boss answering, no kidding, "That's a great question because that's an important issue that needs to be addressed." No further info. was ever available nor was the issue ever addressed. |
Post by Finis // Mar 3, 2009, 6:59am
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Finis
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I started with TS3 before it was free. I'll use TS7 model side and TS5 since they are good for many hobbyist things.
I'm going to find some other 3D software to be my main program. If needed I'll use several like Rayman does. I will pay a reasonable price within my ability for a good product. I will never pay for TS again so future TS's are free or not for me.
Workspace looks promising. I'd like to see it finished and try it. I'll watch TS development until TS8. At that time I'll either put it in my toolbox or have no future interest in it or its development. |
Post by Steinie // Mar 3, 2009, 7:21am
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Steinie
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Yep there might be a funeral.
You guys lost lots of users already and now stating that trueSpace is a Web program just sucked the life out of it. I don't think many users at this Forum are using trueSpace for the Web, well at least the one's that participate.
The Web future might explain the death of VRay or any other offline rendering software. Who needs high res images on the Web?
Can you explain why the Patch is taking so long? Remember tS 4.0 had three patches and they didn't take YEARS to make. Now you guys are backed by a Software Giant and can't get one out the door.
Why doesn't Roman come here anymore?
In case no one noticed the audience is changing. Please leave me an aisle seat. |
Post by Tiles // Mar 3, 2009, 7:33am
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Tiles
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(Tiles, you still hangin' in there? ;-) )
Um, hanging is the right word. I would from time to time need a working app ... :p |
Post by TomG // Mar 3, 2009, 7:51am
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TomG
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Nobody said tS was a web program. It was "3d for the web age". That is different from "3d for the web".
And this is nothing new - this philosophy dates back to the beginning of tS, and was strongly seen eg with VRML support in tS3. The difference with tS7 is that it decided to have its own format and method for live, collaborative, interactive 3D, rather than rely on a third party format.
So, there is nothing there that is news to "suck the life" out of tS, since it isn't news, its olds, tS has been that way since inception so every version of tS you have ever used has been founded on that philosophy. This doesn't represent some shift away from what tS was in any way. tS was ALWAYS about that.
What do you need for "3d for the web age" - you need great modeling, good workflow, something easy enough to be picked up by beginners, but complete enough to be used by professionals, great animation including character animation (same thing about ease for beginners and complete for professionals) - there is no ground breaking shift here that shatters what tS is about and takes away the tools you need :)
The difference is we add stuff, that takes more time to support, like being able to use these tools in shared space, like being able to build tools from scratch using the same technique that can build interactive objects, etc. So we add to, not take away.
We don't streamline for movies, this is true, we remain with a more general purpose mindset there. We don't assume since someone will be professional since our app costs $3,000, so we do aim to make it more accessible for beginners than other apps might etc.
So all that to me is no cause for alarm.
On V-Ray, well the removal of V-Ray was explained quite clearly - it was not selling enough to cover the costs of hosting its sale. Nothing about "offline rendering is not important" etc, a financial decision, which we were quite open about. Not quite sure why we want to revisit something that was already explained.
Roman doesn't post here any more because Roman is 10 times busier than he ever was. He hardly has any spare time of any sort, and his work day is pre-booked weeks in advance with one thing crammed shoulder-to-shoulder with another. Sadly this is part of being in a bigger company, he does have less time to come visit the forums than he would like.
In offset, now that I am not making sales offers on a regular basis, I have more time, and my forum presence has significantly increased, as have other lines of customer communication, with the resurrection of the newsletter, users and third parties on our website, Twitter, and more. While we are still standing by the old policy of not discussing the future of tS and tools and developments, so those avenues of communication don't reveal that, it does mean that in fact tS has more communication than it has had in a while, something we plan to continue to increase.
When news is available, there are now many more ways to get it to you, faster than ever.
Is the glass half full or half empty, that is indeed a matter of perspective. Is it frustrating not to know? We know that it is, and for that we apologize. But we stand by the policy, from lessons learned the hard way, as frustrating as it is.
HTH,
Tom |
Post by Khai // Mar 3, 2009, 7:54am
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On V-Ray, well the removal of V-Ray was explained quite clearly - it was not selling enough to cover the costs of hosting its sale. Nothing about "offline rendering is not important" etc, a financial decision, which we were quite open about. Not quite sure why we want to revisit something that was already explained.
it gets revisited since there is NO news on a render engine for 8. ok you keep telling us about community efforts for other render engines... But NOTHING from caligari.
sorry. I want news from CALIGARI about what THEY are doing about a render engine.
(directX is NOT a valid render engine for quality work) |
Post by TomG // Mar 3, 2009, 8:12am
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TomG
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But there is no point going back to something that was explained and adding some speculation about that, when it was already explained :)
Revisiting "Will there be a render engine from the workspace?" is different from taking something that was explained and giving a different (and so incorrect) explanation for that event.
And as I say, it is frustrating, but it is policy not to discuss anything until release is imminent.
As for directx not being enough for quality work, that is a sweeping statement that relies on several assumptions. I know many people doing professional work using it. Does that mean their work is not quality? Of course not, their work is quality, people pay for it. And that is when it is just a 2D render, let alone when you bring it to life and can walk around it, which adds a whole other dimension to what counts as "quality".
If you want photorealistic reflections and caustics, then it is not the way to go, but that is a particular set of requirements, it is not "quality", which is a measure of worth or goodness. Sometimes the ability to walk around is realtime is worth more or better than caustics.
And if you've ever seen Marcel Barthel's work, who adds light mapping to his real-time scenes, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between what is online and what is not.
DX9 may not make the renders you as an individual require, but for others it will. So to say it cannot produce quality work is a misleading statement, the accurate one is that it does not do what you require in your renders. But not everyone is created equal :)
Does having DX9 remove the need for an offline renderer? No - and this is why do you think Lightworks is still included in the software. Asserting that the DX9 renderer is quality is not an assertion that offline rendering is a thing of the past, or that real-time renders can fill every role an offline renderer did, etc. But it's also not accurate to say that since it can't fill every role an offline renderer does means it is invalid for quality work.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Khai // Mar 3, 2009, 8:18am
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Khai
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more smokescreen.
yes DirectX is good for some. it is not good for all. that is secondary.
Tom, enough. I just want a SIMPLE answer.
your not prepared to give that obviously.
time to look elsewhere for a program I can Rely on, since I can't trust a company that won't answer important questions about their program. |
Post by JimB // Mar 3, 2009, 8:59am
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I would like to make a call for a little more understanding on this situation?
What I have read in this thread can only be described as tantrams inferring things like if you dont do something and do it now I will go and find another program,this is not worthy of many of the TS users.If TS cannot fulfill a particular task right now then seeking another program that can is fine, lets face it we all use other programs as well as TS already and therefore threatening to cease using TS just looks like spite. |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 3, 2009, 9:13am
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RAYMAN
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And that makes life with Truespace a lot easier and less frustrating...
I personaly expect very much from the 3d party people...
were going to see lots of things in the future including WS side particles
I see lots of potential in the new Yafray exporter and in the new Kerkythea exporter Jack is going to make. These things need our testing too....
The frame is there and lets hope for the best that the problems that still exist with bones etc. get ironed out.
I´m optimistic but just not waiting ... I´m happy when i get it..:) |
Post by teamonkey // Mar 3, 2009, 9:22am
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V-Ray - over priced for most TS users - waste of time and resources
V-Ray has no price right now-it's no longer available for TS. |
Post by tatts // Mar 3, 2009, 3:34pm
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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Wow!!! I never reallized how intense a topic like "Caligari's future?" could be. I will remember not to make this mistake twice lol.
As far as Truespace... For me! I am forever greatful. I bought gamespace and thought it was the greatest thing. It does'nt have everything I need, but being a DarkBasic User I learned to rely on well more than just one piece of software. Infact I have over a dozen programs that I use all for one program, and that's darkbasic.
As far as other 3d apps like the standard industry one's . how many people do you know that can just put out $7000 on a single program. I know I could'nt. Even the standard program for a free lancer, Which the most common one that I know about is lightwave. Again has a price tag of about $1600 I think, could be wrong on that. There is Blender that can put out some very nice stuff, but the learning curve sucks. For Tuespace to be now free....WOW :)
I like Direct X, Well except the fact that it does'nt have support for multitexturing but im ok with that. mesh wise i've never had a problem with it. Infact to me it seems to be getting better everyday. |
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