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Life or death for Truespace.
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Life or death for Truespace. // Roundtable
Post by marcel // Jan 11, 2009, 10:08am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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Hi all
1-Since Caligari stop selling Vray, the workspace doesn't have a render anymore. I do not understand this change.
2-If in the future Caligari stop the modeler size (why not?), artists and professionals will use other programs.
3-OK, realtime is interesting but how many peoples really use TS only for Microsoft's Virtual Earth or real time presentation? 1%? more?
4-I am not very confident for the future. Is the passion of the team of Caligari dead? (thank microsoft).
I hope I am wrong. :confused: |
Post by i_maker // Jan 11, 2009, 11:11am
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i_maker
Total Posts: 156
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What's wrong with the way things were with ts6.6? ts7 was an aberration, a fligh of fancy which landed badly... The fact that a lot of people still use Modeler in 7.6 is indicative of where thigns should have been heading... |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 11, 2009, 11:32am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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No I dont see it that way!
The new architecture is a project that never finished thats how I see it.
Workspace is incredibly more powerfull the any other version before
but its far from being finished and the move under a new roof did not
speed things up. Modeling tool are missing and now an offline render engine.
What we need is people who are willing to make exporters for workspace.
Dele just showed us the first picture of Yafray - exporter that is coming !
The brick aproach to 3d is the same direction Xsi is going with ice ! |
Post by Burnart // Jan 11, 2009, 11:41am
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Everyone has the right to express their opinions and disappointment with the current state of play with tS but I think its premature to be announcing the death of the software just yet. I've seen forums get so negative that it becomes a case of a negative wish fulfillment and I'd hate to see that happen here. As people have suggested in other threads what we need is a statement from Roman/Caligari about what the future plans are in regard to rendering. Its clearly a significant concern and can't/shouldn't be ignored. |
Post by splinters // Jan 11, 2009, 11:42am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I have used tS since version 1 where I became pretty good with it and that is why I struggle to migrate to the workspace.
However, I do mess with it for other projects and shared visualisations and can see its potential. If they lose the model side in a future version then I will stick with tS7.6 for the modeller (I would use tS6.6 but the HDRI is just too good to pass up!). No harm done.
It is just not heading in the direction I would like to see. I would be happy with more model tools being ported over and access to Lightworks and Dribble as well as Vray.
Edit: I agree with Burnart (and others) in that a statement is needed. No, not needed as Caligari has no obligation to calm our fears but I think it only fair to all those who have supported tS for so many years to know where it is heading. And please, no 'the future is bright etc.' type plans...just details and timecales. |
Post by marcel // Jan 11, 2009, 12:33pm
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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I agree with you splinters.
I would like a workspace with more tools, lightwork, hdri and vray! :)
I know I ask a lot to a free soft. For all the professional like me, it is important to know. My problem is that i like to work with TS but i need to know if i can to continue with TS in the future. It is difficult to change after many years of use of TS (and i don't want to change this wonderful soft!). I have a huge archive of TS scenes (thousands of objets). |
Post by splinters // Jan 11, 2009, 12:38pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I agree with you splinters.
I would like a workspace with more tools, lightwork, hdri and vray! :)
I know I ask a lot to a free soft. For all the professional like me, it is important to know. My problem is that i like to work with TS but i need to know if i can to continue with TS in the future. It is difficult to change after many years of use of TS (and i don't want to change this wonderful soft!). I have a huge archive of TS scenes (thousands of objets).
That is why I am having trouble moving to another program Marcel; I have a huge library of stuff made in tS (in fact all of Buddy World is in tS) so it is not an easy decision to move on. Also the reason I would always need modeller as these models cannot be opened by workspace alone...:(
I have enough on finding time to write new material and illustrate it without having to learn another program!!
Still, I am willing to give Caligari the benefit of the doubt but a little news would be good. |
Post by Steinie // Jan 11, 2009, 12:43pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Silly isn't it how we are all so attached to a Software through thick and thin. We are the employee who loves his job and gives 100% all his life only to be layed off right before his retirement.
Yes we are the silly person wanting to know if our commitment to your vision was worth it. That isn't so hard is it? |
Post by v3rd3 // Jan 11, 2009, 12:52pm
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v3rd3
Total Posts: 388
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I think that given the timing of the announcement regarding vray that the decision to halt sales was purely based on number crunching as described by Tom in his announcement.
This type of change can happen in any business facing economic challenges. I do not believe there is one business out there that is ignoring the current state of the economy. Nor could one afford to. I know I can't. I decided to put off a number of activities and purchases owing to the prospect of declining income.
I have absolutely no doubt that there is a lot of activity at all levels of Caligari and MS working toward determining future activities and resourcing to achieve necessary goals.
I realize that as consumers we all have a right to express our opinion on a number of fronts. Let's face it. For the vast majority of us that have been a part of the Caligari experience for some time are looking to, or are actually, earning income using this and related tools. Many of us need features from the model side in the workspace side, improvement in existing features, or new features on the drawing board.
I would hope though that we temper our comments with adequate reflection. I have no doubt that the Caligari team are aware of our frustration with the current situation and which issues need to be addressed and that they are aware that we cannot wait forever for information.
I think at this point and time I will give Caligari the benefit of my experience in the chaos of mergers and the challenge of managing costs in a difficult business environment. Team Caligari are working with new partners in a large corporate environment and the challenges this presents simply take time to resolve.
Some of the points of discusion in other threads seem to indicate that Caligari are working against our interests and I do not believe this to be true at all. Team Caligari have always worked to further our abilities through Truespace. The only limitation I have seen in the past is the reality that resources to support their ambitions are not infinite or free. This limitation does not change by partnering with MS.
The reality is that time will tell and the ride is not over yet.
I also want to take this opportunity to thank all those who contribute scripts, tutorials and other benefits to this community. Without a doubt TS would not be the rich experience it is without your contribution. |
Post by adriani // Jan 11, 2009, 12:57pm
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adriani
Total Posts: 89
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Hi all!
I agree with Steinie,Splinters and Marcel..
Sorry, I am still Sad and disappoint with Truespace.
For long time I am (or We)waiting for fixing bugs of vray,and until now never were fixed.
We are in 2009, and to use the TS like older version is not good,We need
to see the future,like Modo,lightwave, vue etc etc.. they always have something new!
I always said for the team of caligari and to Prodigy,The light of Ts need
to be more light/soft like real vray etc..but....
1-I write to The Team of Chaos/vray they send me email, but they told me that Caligari will give support....strange1.
2-I write to the ASGvis,they Told me that they not made vray for Caligari,and just say..call Caligari....strange2.
3-The announcement of Tom about vray will not available.
4-We purchased a program broken, problems with and was not repaired.
5-The prizes (simple prizes) contest galley we cannot transfer,but now
they changed
6-The big person of TS-Vray Prodigy now is SAD and going....He spend days,years to show us
bugs ideas etc... and collaborate too....and just Win ONE JUST THANKS.
Everybody knows the 3D job is very difficult,and he did not win money of this...
....Our works is not hobby, We need it live.... thank all |
Post by jayr // Jan 11, 2009, 1:00pm
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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That is why I am having trouble moving to another program Marcel; I have a huge library of stuff made in tS (in fact all of Buddy World is in tS) so it is not an easy decision to move on. Also the reason I would always need modeller as these models cannot be opened by workspace alone...:(
i was thinking before that this maybe one of the many reasons for making 7.6 free, as a library translator for v8 which may not have the model side and old import options.
I agree with splinters thoughs, we need a definate statement as to what will happen in the future. We need to know if lightworks will be part of the workspace. We need to know what sort of program TS will become.
Keeping everyone waiting and guessing is just going to make people look elsewhere. |
Post by splinters // Jan 11, 2009, 1:33pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Caligari owes me nothing and I cannot demand anything from it. All I ask is to know if I can use all my existing stuff in the next version of tS. If I cannot then I would like as much notice as possible so I can invest my time in a new package. While tS7.6 does all I need (and even Vray to an extent). I will eventually have to move on to take advantage of new technologies. Realistic/flexible skin and fur/hair are my main concerns although I would also like to see cloth improved and proper fluid simulation (no offence Froo; I can't use blender at the moment!)
Thank heavens for Dribble...:o |
Post by spyfrog // Jan 11, 2009, 1:38pm
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spyfrog
Total Posts: 181
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I think that given the timing of the announcement regarding vray that the decision to halt sales was purely based on number crunching as described by Tom in his announcement.
This type of change can happen in any business facing economic challenges. I do not believe there is one business out there that is ignoring the current state of the economy. Nor could one afford to. I know I can't. I decided to put off a number of activities and purchases owing to the prospect of declining income.
I have absolutely no doubt that there is a lot of activity at all levels of Caligari and MS working toward determining future activities and resourcing to achieve necessary goals.
I am sure they ran the numbers. However, it was a strange decision to take. But the worst part was HOW they did it - no other information besides Vray being removed. Not a pledge or perhaps even an update that made Lightwork working from workspace. This left workspace, the "future" according to Caligari, without render engine - not a good position for a 3D package. Even in tight economics you have to think of how things looks - this looks like the future of TS is without offline renders. A simple "we are porting Lightworks over to workspace and will release that in next patch" had made a whole other message. Some cost you have to take or you will loose your business.
In my humble opinion, there has been much to little information from Caligari since they was bought by MS. The first thing you learn in marketing is that when business are changing, you need to be informative and ahead of opinion - Caligari does the exact opposite. This is even stranger since it was MS who bought them - MS greatest strength is perhaps their public relations department so why they have left Caligari out there with a defunct pr policy is strange... being tight lipped when informations is needed isn't a good solutions to any problem - that creates rumors.
And Caligaris response to the worries about no renders to workspace - 3rd party! What is that, a joke? A 3rd party render engine when Caligari can't sell one! Who is going to make that? If the maker of the 3D program, which is backed by the worlds largest software company, can't get a profit in selling a render engine for the 3D program - who do they think that a 3rd party can?? The only hope in that case is for a open source variant. |
Post by v3rd3 // Jan 11, 2009, 3:07pm
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v3rd3
Total Posts: 388
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The how the product was removed is not as unusual as you think. I was the Y2K project manager at my company and found that October - January 1998 about 10% of the software my company used was suddenly "sunsetted".
I have no doubt this decision was not from Caligari accounting.
Hence the lack of lead time for the announcement and the lack of explanation. If this was a strategic decision then Caligari would have no problem informing us of the what and why because they would understand it.
I am certain that there are many within Caligari that are as concerned about this as we are.
I think 3rd parties are always going to be a part of the success of any 3d package. Look at all of the TS features that started their lives as 3rd party plugins. As to rendering, Virtuaout/Virtualight was at one point the "other" option for an offline renderer. Soon workspace will have .x and yafray and 3delight.
As to profitability, if the user community lacks the interest to pay for a premium rendering solution why would a profit oriented business continue to sell it? Remember the explanation for the pull was that the revenue could not cover the cost of sales.
Personally, I have no doubt that when the user population triples or quadruples that Vray will find its way back onto the table for another run.
As to MS pr, to be blunt, I have not yet seen what I would regard as the big MS push. The announcements at the time of the acquisition imho look like the requirement for SEC disclosure. There are articles etc in 3d press but these seem to be timed quarterly which does not smack of a coordinated MS intiative. My experience with MS is that they have a target, path to domination determined, huge and persistent push to target. When MS push a point the entire planet is aware of it for at least 30 minutes and CNN finds a way to gawk in awe (yes its a lame shock and awe gag but hey.... it's late and my mind wanders sometimes).
It is clear to me that there are still some significant issues at MSCaligari and as I have said before they are the kinds of issues that will only be solved with time. |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 11, 2009, 3:30pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Caligari owes me nothing and I cannot demand anything from it. .:o
There's the rub.:) |
Post by transient // Jan 11, 2009, 3:35pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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This is my last word on this latest atrocity from Caligari. I'm off to spend some time in the shade....... |
Post by Finis // Jan 11, 2009, 3:38pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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"We're gonna explode? I don't wanna explode!"
-- Jayne from Serenity
TS is probably not going to explode. It might transform though. That Roman/Caligari/MS don't tell us what their plan is doesn't mean there isn't one.
The frustration seems to come from two sources: lack of communication and unfinished products.
Many are unhappy with the quality of the current system. It was released before it was ready so there are missing tools, two sides, and bugs. Vray for TS or the interface to it was also unfinished, bugs, etc. That made it unpopular which reduced sales ... This trend of releasing unfinished products is part of the problem.
Some, especially professionals, want stability and reliability. Bugs and lack of communication don't provide that.
They are probably too smart to leave workspace without a traditional renderer or access to third party ones (renderer friendly plug-in environment, sdk, etc.) and import for our old stuff. I think they know what they are doing but they need to tell us what to expect. At least in vague terms.
When a finished product is put on the market customers can examine it and determine if it is suitable for their needs. With workspace unfinished and mysterious in some things it is difficult for each to decide if learning workspace is the proper investment of effort or if another program is in their future.
Splinters was saying something like that a few posts ago.
We all like TS for some reason or we would already have moved to other software. Choosing the best product for you is being a good consumer. Brand loyalty has to be earned. |
Post by The Master Elite // Jan 11, 2009, 3:51pm
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The Master Elite
Total Posts: 107
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Wort. I'm content to wait as I know that companies have these types of questions all the time. Bungie Softworks for example [you might not know] gets questions, speculation, and even the occassional "I don't see this going anywhere so I quit" thread.
The thing is that if they have delivered before there is thus a 50% or greater chance they will deliver again. They have a lot to work out still as of this purchase and assimilation under Micro$oft. Nonetheless, Ts for free is a great enough boost for me. I can understand others having more advanced needs [like I'll need to learn Max in order to do anything REAL in the Game Industry, but I only started looking forward to that 3 months ago]...and if that is the case, you may need to make due with other programs for a little while...but don't give up hope...losing hope is what stops companies from delivering, after all, and I do believe we all look forward to the next version of Ts [I do know I do]...
If you'll recall, they said it would not be version 8.0 until they moved all the old legacy tools from the model side to the Workspace. I'm sure this means a rendering engine too...:)
...so if your home and comfort rely on it, you might need another program for a short bit, and if so, go ahead. If, on the other hand, you simply want to see more progress, just hope for it and occassionally ask for it...one day it'll show up. But don't be disappointed, because that is what ends great oppertunity. That is what ends great software like TrueSpace, and I for one DO NOT want to see TrueSpace ended.
Please, human lives are at stake here, don't lose another life to Blender...pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez....:p
THE MASTER ELITE
P.S. Whoa, I wrote an essay faster than I've ever done it before. :confused:
P.S.S. I agree Finis, using the program made for you is being a good consumer and a good artist. I love trueSpace and [hopefully] always will, but that doesn't mean I don't aspire to one day purchase much bigger programs like zBrush and Max...and in that order :P |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 11, 2009, 3:52pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Actually, it's a bit different for me.
I'm forever grateful what I've learned from other tS users.
I don't mean this to be pompous, it's just a fact for me. The joy of being able to do just about anything you want in a 3D software package is pure joy. This is what I've found moving on. :)
I do come back to tS for curiosity and to keep in touch. Kind of like the old bar/pub on the corner. Comfortable and the conversation is quite nice. |
Post by i_maker // Jan 11, 2009, 3:56pm
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i_maker
Total Posts: 156
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Maybe there is no plan... Maybe the Captain jumped ship a long time ago, and here we are, poor unsuspecting souls, thinking some one is still at the helm, whilst in reality the vessel maybe just drifting into oblivion like a ghost ship... Do we really count in Caligari's eye? No, it is all free now, like death, and anything that involves exchange of money must go... |
Post by sj41 // Jan 11, 2009, 4:01pm
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sj41
Total Posts: 31
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Caligari owes me nothing and I cannot demand anything from it.
Well, I'm not so sure. Free or not, Caligari and trueSpace cannot survive if no one uses it -- Microsoft must have some plan to have it used, at least with Virtual Earth. The current users will start to abandon trueSpace if they feel that there is no future for it. This feeling grows when we're kept in the dark about development plans and progress, and the longer we're kept in the dark, the more of us will drift away. Roman gave us a vague pep talk the other day, but its vagueness didn't exactly instill confidence -- at least in me. I don't expect the raw openness of Blender development, with a new build provided almost every day, but some specifics about capabilities and schedules would be nice. |
Post by The Master Elite // Jan 11, 2009, 4:09pm
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The Master Elite
Total Posts: 107
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Blender is the home of lost souls...:o
I will NEVER SUCCUMB TO TEH DARK SIDE! I COULDN'T CARE LESS ABOUT THEIR COOKIES!
Peanut Butter or Sug-
...no. I stay with Ts...I stayed with it even before it was free...it being free only keeps me tighter on it.
...and where is this pep talk you refer to? Or is it not public? |
Post by Steinie // Jan 11, 2009, 4:20pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Pep Talk 101:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=90949&postcount=49 |
Post by kena // Jan 11, 2009, 5:15pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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It's quite simple. If the program goes in a direction that I am not facing, then it and I will start walking in different directions. weather or not the program goes bust is dependent on how many people actually USE it. Not many people were using V-ray, so it got dumped. And I have not heard back from ChaosGroup on the e-mail I sent them. I will continue to do my thing with what I have, and when what is available no longer works for me, I will go on to something else.
Bottom line. That is all anyone can do. Except opt out immediately. Some people have done the second option, and that is their choice. They may or may not be back. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jan 11, 2009, 5:20pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I don't, and have not used tS, in over a year now...I keep checking in to see if things have changed, but apparently not....sad times really. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 11, 2009, 6:05pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I understand it as a networking problem......
Truespace people are all into this site but arent in all the other
forums. Kerkythea forum nada ..Blender forum a few ..renderosity forum almost nada .. yafray coming up.. luxrender nada sunflow nada sketchup groups..nada
its all Blender world although the brick aproach to animation has such high potential that it could be very interesting for lots of people out there.
If we dont draw the people in Caligari doesnt get the funds to give us what we want to have . No people using Truespace means no sales for Vray means
no Vray for TS......thats a vicious circle.Its up to us to let Microsoft
understand that we see Truespace to be more then a tool for virtual earth.
If there´s 5 million downloads and I think there are some broken downs
but nevertheless there are very many we should move out and get more
interest and more devs. that have the capabilities to produce plugs etc.
its only the sick bears that get killed not the healthy and strong...
Theres lots of good and many free software out there we just need to tie
knots and not fall into negativism...
thats my 2 cents
Edit: for those of you who can read german you must read this at the german Blender forum.... what they have to say about Ts
http://blendpolis.de/f/viewtopic.php?t=19206 |
Post by v3rd3 // Jan 11, 2009, 7:00pm
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v3rd3
Total Posts: 388
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I understand it as a networking problem......
Truespace people are all into this site but arent in all the other
forums. Kerkythea forum nada ..Blender forum a few ..renderosity forum almost nada .. yafray coming up.. luxrender nada sunflow nada sketchup groups..nada
Not true, I lurk in all of them.....:cool: |
Post by Emmanuel // Jan 11, 2009, 9:39pm
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Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
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3 considerations here :
1. Rayman, I suspect that trueSpace7.6 has been downloaded by almost all the people using 3D softwares.
We can even guess that this is the only public that CAN try an other 3D program. For the vast majority of ordinary people, 3D is too complex to even think of it, and Workspace's interface screenshots they can see on the web are way too scaring :o
This could explain why there is not many new users here on this forum, nor much people talking about tS on other forums.
Blender, C4D, Lightwave, Silo, Sketchup people that have downloaded and tried tS simply found that tS is not up to the standards... and it is free after all.
A 3D software being given for free means a LOT.
It must be either a shareware, or a product that has no commercial value, isn't it ?
Why would someone that uses Blender/ C4D/ Lightwave/ Silo/ Sketchup at work, start spending time to learn a tool that has no commercial value ?
This was the first Caligari/MS mistake.
2. Next, we know that this free version is part of a Microsoft strategy to help populating Virtual Earth with 3D buildings.
V-Ray removal is a clear signal that they don't want hobbyists to waste Microsoft money (the trueSpace investment) at making offline renders while Microsoft just want VE models !
Problem is that V-Ray gone, all the pros among us will leave the forum, or at least stop teaching newbies. And tell me, who will train hobbyists when all the guys that know the program well won't be around anymore ? TomG, Norm ?
And here is the second Caligari/MS mistake.
3. But there is a moral in that story. You know the good always wins at the end. And your favorite Beta testers are now working hard at making a Yafray exporter :)
So the sharks didn't won yet.
trueSpace is not dead : its core community is all at the resucitation room, in a fantastic transplant heart experience.
http://jecritiquetout.canalblog.com/images/asterix.jpg |
Post by marcel // Jan 11, 2009, 11:18pm
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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I see that my fears are shared by many people.
It is important to remember that because we all love TS.
Caligari should not feel attacked. I just encouraged the team Caligari to continue in the direction of those who have made the success of TS. |
Post by Maldrachen // Jan 12, 2009, 3:04pm
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Maldrachen
Total Posts: 49
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wow its getting really depressing coming to these forums lately.
whilst i am seriously freakin annoyed at caligari for towing the corporate M$ line and just throwing us vray users away without what would seem to be a care in the world, I must say what im seeing most in the forums lately is that typical human behaviour of in the absence of any real or concrete information the ability to calculate the absolute worst possible scenario.
Just in relation to vray sales, i forget the number of times ive seen people ask about whether vray is worth purchasing only to be put off by the reports of bugs and the lack of functionality compared to the full vray.... fix it and they will come :) |
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