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Did we start off on the wrong foot?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Did we start off on the wrong foot? // Roundtable
Post by prodigy // Jan 7, 2009, 10:39am
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prodigy
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http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=90711#post90711
At my point of view, this was not the best new to start a new year..
Im wondering what we do to deserve this kind of "Support"...
We support Caligari for many many years.. We made the greatest 3d community on the internet.. We do wrong??
Now i understand Mark (3dvisualdude) |
Post by Emmanuel // Jan 7, 2009, 10:52am
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Emmanuel
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Prodigy, this is not a sanction.
This is natural selection :o |
Post by manxie // Jan 7, 2009, 11:07am
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manxie
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I have to agree with Prodigy, This news sucks..:( |
Post by spyfrog // Jan 7, 2009, 11:07am
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spyfrog
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So this now mean that we have no offline render that renders from the new interface - the one that is the "future" of Truespace?
If this isn't a clear indication that Caligari is going online only and activly working against their old customers who are interested in offline rendering and not the "3D webb", then I don't know what is.
Caligari, you need to come out with a long time plan now. What is the future for Truespace? This isn't the right time to say "no comments". |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 7, 2009, 11:10am
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RichLevy
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The reality, this is not the warm and fuzzy Caligari we all came to know. Things are changing around us, things we can not have any say in, nor is our say in the change important. TS is a tool for the use of MS. It may or may not retain some of the characteristics of the program we once knew.
The reality, TS will change, so will the user base... to fit what TS morphs into next...
... I wonder what will happen next.
Rich |
Post by Khai // Jan 7, 2009, 11:11am
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Khai
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hmm no proper render engine for the much touted (and personally hated by me) new 'workspace'.
ok that is not good at all. |
Post by Délé // Jan 7, 2009, 11:24am
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Délé
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My apologies for defending the MS acquisition. It seems those who were worried that it was going to lead to the demise of offline rendering were right to worry. I guess I have egg on my face. :o |
Post by Weevil // Jan 7, 2009, 11:30am
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Good point that "offline renderer" stuff was one of the major put offs for me I'm afraid, this is going to cause a bit of a divider too, for the people who have V-ray don't loose it, and for those who don't unlucky |
Post by Burnart // Jan 7, 2009, 11:30am
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Burnart
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Hello Simon are you out there somewhere? If it is possible to start creating a link to the Workspace for dribble then now's the time as a great big hole just opened up.
What about other renderers like yafray, kerkythea, indigo etc Anyone building a Workspace friendly interface? (Its beyond me I'm afraid.) |
Post by Burnart // Jan 7, 2009, 11:41am
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Burnart
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Also - maybe Parva and his super realtime approach has always been the goal anyway. I'm not convinced the MS buyout is the only reason for this. If you look back at Roman's statements over the past few years its clear he regards realtime as the holy grail for 3d software. Still decent raytrace rendering (with gi etc) as a plugin option needs to be available. So V-Ray has spat the dummy that means there is opportunity for others. Frankly the reason I haven't bought it is that it always seemed too expensive and the reports from those who did lead me to think it was kind of buggy. The joke of course is that given that tS is now free I probably would have lashed out and bought V-Ray by the end of the 2009. |
Post by JimB // Jan 7, 2009, 11:43am
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JimB
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I could never understand offering a $300 renderer for a freeware Ts :)
The reality, this is not the warm and fuzzy Caligari we all came to know.
Whats with the warm and Fuzzy,I certainly never felt this amongst this clique
I'm afraid. |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 7, 2009, 11:52am
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RichLevy
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I could never understand offering a $300 renderer for a freeware Ts :)
Whats with the warm and Fuzzy,I certainly never felt this amongst this clique
I'm afraid.
The Warm and Fuzzy is the sense of community, some feel it, some don't :rolleyes: I've felt less and less of it lately. I know what it was like years back when I was hangin around the GS forums... it depends on the involvement one puts in and the reception you get back.
Rich |
Post by TomG // Jan 7, 2009, 12:04pm
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"If this isn't a clear indication that Caligari is going online only and activly working against their old customers who are interested in offline rendering and not the "3D webb", then I don't know what is."
It certainly isn't. The reason is given in the announcement - were it to do with a refocusing of trueSpace, we'd have said that up front. However, it is purely a number-crunching decision, supply and demand at work. There is not enough interest in V-Ray to cover the costs of making it available for sale, and that is not something we can support with the current global financial conditions. I wish it were not that way (both the global financial status, and the uptake of V-Ray) as I do like the V-Ray engine, but at the same time, wishing it were not so doesn't change the reality of it.
Should any third party come up with alternative renderers or plug-ins, for free or at a charge, we'll be more than happy to be promoting those on our site, just as we are with any other third party items. So again, no bias on this being real-time only, where we'd stifle or ignore such developments - quite the opposite, we'd be happy to see that happen, and do what we could to promote that!
Getting Dribble onto the new developer's page would be a good thing, I hope Simon is out there and can send me the details if he is interested in being added :)
HTH,
Tom
PS - So I understand the disappointment, it's disappointing for me also that this is the reality of the situation; I was one of the main testers and proponents of V-Ray for tS, and it's the engine of choice in my renders. I can see why others who feel the same will be disappointed also (if only there were many many such others, we might not be in this situation as there would be a big demand!). However, I won't keep re-iterating the issues, I did just want to repeat the reason one more time, but now I'll be bowing out of such posts as I don't want to get into "arguing" with everyone on the subject. No amount of explanation will reduce anyone's disappointment of course, so repeating myself would just be counter-productive for all. |
Post by spyfrog // Jan 7, 2009, 12:25pm
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There is not enough interest in V-Ray to cover the costs of making it available for sale, and that is not something we can support with the current global financial conditions. I wish it were not that way (both the global financial status, and the uptake of V-Ray) as I do like the V-Ray engine, but at the same time, wishing it were not so doesn't change the reality of it.
But Tom, you actually remove all offline renders from Truespaces new architecture - the workspace. I am sure that it would be great to have Dribble from Workspace, but we don't have that. Being totally dependent on third party renders also don't gives the impression that Caligari wants to keep the offline rendering alive.
You already includes Lightwork for each copy of TS 7.6 - but it is a model side only renderer. We all know that workspace is the future. So removing Vray, the ONLY render that is workspace, is of course looking like Caligari isn't interested in offline renders. What will happend with TS8 in this case? Lack of modelside mean no included renders at all now.
Caligari should have ported over Lightworks to workspace before removing the Vray option if you wanted to show us that you still supported offline rendering. I understand that the Vray option perhaps is to expensive, but you already pays for the Lightwork part since it is included in modelside, so this could have been done without overhead, or? |
Post by Norm // Jan 7, 2009, 1:23pm
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But Tom, you actually remove all offline renders from Truespaces new architecture - ......
Passions aside, the marketplace (users) created demand for Vray. Seems the vast majority of users were happy using lightworks or existing real-time renderer. It is unfortunate but that is indeed the reality. To chastize or beat-up on Caligari and Microsoft over this is counter-productive, considering they left the door open for users to purchase Vray for quite awhile. Place the blame where it belongs and realize that it was demand that forced the issue.
As for rendering in future, I would suggest it is best to wait and see what comes about. Perhaps if those who would like additonal renderers for trueSpace made enough noise (and made purchases when the time comes), 3rd party developers might show some interest. But if demand remains at current levels for render engines, you can easily guess what the outcome will be :(
In the meantime, those who wanted Vray have it and it will always work with trueSpace7.6. No one has lost anything here except the chance to purchase something they were unwilling to purchase in the first place. |
Post by transient // Jan 7, 2009, 1:41pm
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My apologies for defending the MS acquisition. It seems those who were worried that it was going to lead to the demise of offline rendering were right to worry. I guess I have egg on my face.
I think people on both sides of that debate weren't at their best. Of course I was beyond reproach.....:o
That said, I'm not sure that Microsoft are to blame for this. When I first bought vray it was broken. It took over a year to fix and I think by this stage it was proabably doomed.
A better effort early on would have made vray4ts a widowmaker for it's competition. There's still no replacement for it in this price range. What troubles me is that if Caligari can't make a slam dunk like a 300 dollar vray make money, what hope for the rest?
I'm hopeful about dribble reaching it's potential, it would put truespace back on the rendering hit-list, however the lack of communication recently has me concerned about that plug-in as well.
Weirdly, my other favourite 3d program Shade spontaneously came back to life a few days ago. Anyone who likes quality rendering and doesn't want to pay for the big five, or deal with open-source software, may want to check it out. Considering this sad news you'll probably find me there as much as here in the coming months.
I'm not sure why this community is getting criticised in this thread. It's the best. You don't get a fight unless you want one, and you get huge amounts of friendly support that would get you rtfm'd anywhere else.
Also, if you do have an issue with someone, and it's clearly you being an asshat, they seem to be able to get over it and move on. Best community in 3d land, bar none, imo. |
Post by Khai // Jan 7, 2009, 1:46pm
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Khai
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Passions aside, the marketplace (users) created demand for Vray. Seems the vast majority of users were happy using lightworks or existing real-time renderer. It is unfortunate but that is indeed the reality. To chastize or beat-up on Caligari and Microsoft over this is counter-productive, considering they left the door open for users to purchase Vray for quite awhile. Place the blame where it belongs and realize that it was demand that forced the issue.
As for rendering in future, I would suggest it is best to wait and see what comes about. Perhaps if those who would like additonal renderers for trueSpace made enough noise (and made purchases when the time comes), 3rd party developers might show some interest. But if demand remains at current levels for render engines, you can easily guess what the outcome will be :(
In the meantime, those who wanted Vray have it and it will always work with trueSpace7.6. No one has lost anything here except the chance to purchase something they were unwilling to purchase in the first place.
sorry this comes across as 'tough'
we the users did not ask you to remove the render engines. you did that THEN told us when it was released.
don't blame us for that. but thanks for the lesson in how to deal with customers and what the outlook is for tS. (online only) - you say wait and see. hang on. you've just withdrawn a render engine from sale!
some impression huh? |
Post by TomG // Jan 7, 2009, 1:48pm
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TomG
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I can sure agree on the community we have here. Everyone has made their points fairly and in a civil manner, and indeed that is almost always what happens. One of the least moderated communities I've ever seen! And that's because everyone really does work together, and so "self moderates" - tries only to say or do what would be constructive.
Of course we're all only human and have offdays, but that's what happens when you bring people into the equation ;) Anyway, just wanted to chime in on that, I should have added that in my "how did you get started with tS", the community played a large part in that, with their help, their friendliness, their humor, and all those things remain true today.
Tom |
Post by kena // Jan 7, 2009, 1:48pm
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kena
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I will say again that I just hope the v-ray works in the next version of TS. With the money I've spent on it and having used it 90% of the time, I would feel a bit cheated if it stopped working altogether until a viable alternative could come out, or v-ray could be re-instated. |
Post by Délé // Jan 7, 2009, 2:00pm
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Délé
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I will say again that I just hope the v-ray works in the next version of TS. With the money I've spent on it and having used it 90% of the time, I would feel a bit cheated if it stopped working altogether until a viable alternative could come out, or v-ray could be re-instated.
Excellent point. Even though I don't use it much, I've been using it a bit more now with Froo's Fluid Plug-in. If future versions don't at least keep the support for the current Vray, I will be very upset. |
Post by prodigy // Jan 7, 2009, 2:00pm
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Just one point Norm,
If Caligari, Microsoft, Chaos group or any other company was expecting that the million of downloaders buy Vray (a non complete, buggy version of the original vray) .. make objects and objects like crazy for turbosquid, or hundred of developers start gambling if truespace has future and if it's secure spend money creating plugins for truespace... at least give more than 5 months Truespace was released on (July 23rd, 2008 ts 7.6 free release)
Learn a 3d takes more time 5 months.. but now, those new users are unable to buy Vray.. Sad for them.. but more sad for those loyatly users that work with Vray, now are in the middle of the empty space..
Must think new users are learning Model side, cos is more completed than workspace.. There are more plugins (Free) there is a free render engine.. Old, but free.. how you expect someone spend 300 dolars if they didn't understand how truespace works??
Crazy.. This is Crazy.. |
Post by mrbones // Jan 7, 2009, 2:16pm
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Maybee I am misunderstanding,
I thought Vray is only being removed from TrueSPace store and third party products.
Does this mean that Vray is no longer available as a workspace renderer?
It is still available to purchase at the Vray site right?
I can see why people would be upset if the VRAY was no longer available.
VRAY is a nice renderer. |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 7, 2009, 2:22pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Maybee I am misunderstanding,
I thought Vray is only being removed from TrueSPace store and third party products.
Does this mean that Vray is no longer available as a workspace renderer?
It is still available to purchase at the Vray site right?
I can see why people would be upset if the VRAY was no longer available.
VRAY is a nice renderer.
You can no longer purchase VRay for TS. It is removed from the Caligari store.
Rich |
Post by transient // Jan 7, 2009, 2:26pm
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transient
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Crazy.. This is Crazy..
Yup.:confused::confused::confused: |
Post by Weevil // Jan 7, 2009, 2:29pm
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Weevil
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Apologies for not reading this entire thread...been a bit of a long day, and this message will probably get lost in the sea of "the main points" like it usually does, but well lets see
From my stand point, I'm not as highly affected as many of you, I don't use V-ray as TS 6.6 doesn't support it, but I will say that V-ray was the only reason I would ever make that step across to 7.6. Now I'm lucky enough to have won it in the November image contest so I'll be keeping that safe, while we can't buy it, it doesn't stop us from using any copies we have. Most likely this will give dribble and lightworks a few extra sales, so the offline rendering isn't completely out the window
For those who have V-ray I would assume you could still use it, its just going to be an odd thing to state, more like a cult thats trapped in a vaccum where nothing can go in or out (Like a certain truesapce 6.6 and the FX and conversion paks :rolleyes:)
While it don't affect me its a bit of a strange decision, as...what else are you now sellling caligari? I'm a bit out of the loop :confused: |
Post by Steinie // Jan 7, 2009, 2:46pm
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I find it strange hearing that VRay is not financially feasible while they GIVE AWAY trueSpace for free. Where is the money coming from for trueSpace? I can't believe we are being told everything. |
Post by jrboddie // Jan 7, 2009, 2:57pm
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I am disappointed in this news also. While I am not an owner of VRay, I am a fan of the Workspace and believe that this message would have been better timed with a release of a Workspace plug-in for one or both of the other off-line renderers.
While I am sure it will all be revealed in time, the niche for tS in the Microsoft spectrum of products is far from clear. XNA Game Studio continues to strongly support XSI ModTool and VirtualEarth, 3DIVA. I believe that both third parties have recently introduced new generations of products and are well promoted in their respective MS communities. In the future tS has the potential for replacing one or both of these products.
Well, I just hope that there is news soon about the 7.6 update so that users can see some positive developments. Sorry, but the Turbosquid add-on is just not that exciting to me. |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 7, 2009, 3:15pm
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jamesmc
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I'm glad I purchased other 3D software when I did.
Too bad about the vray - I don't know the future of Caligari, but I find it short sighted and particularly insensitive to those who liked the classy render engine and hoped for it to be fixed.
Of course, of all the bosses in the work place, Mr. Finance is the most heartless. I assume this played a large role in the decision.
These are hard economic times and decisions to make cruel cuts to survive may be crueler.
Be careful out there mates. |
Post by transient // Jan 7, 2009, 3:17pm
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transient
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Too bad about the vray - I don't know the future of Caligari, but I find it short sighted and particularly insensitive to those who liked the classy render engine and hoped for it to be fixed.
As long as you have Prodigy's ambient light Vray works well. At least, I don't know of any outstanding clangers......
I agree with the first part. |
Post by JPSofCA // Jan 7, 2009, 9:35pm
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I bought a copy of VRay, so there's 1. That's a real kick in the tail.
I just put a new machine together with playing with trueSpace and its future evolutions in sight, and now this?
I think the reason it hasn't sold much is that people were waiting for trueSpace's transition to "finish" before investing any time and effort - like with a lot of things, I think we all just want to make sure something's going to stick around before we go putting time into it.
Well, what can one do? I'm disappointed by this news and others should be too as VRay sure is an awesome tool...blazing quick too!
I'll try to look forward to seeing what's next. |
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