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Future unified TS interface
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Future unified TS interface // Roundtable
Post by i_maker // May 11, 2006, 10:53am
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i_maker
Total Posts: 156
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The “dual” personality of ts7 is starting to get me down! When I am in Player, I miss the familiarity and power of the “old” ts6.6 modeling tools. When I am in Modeler, I feel like I am living a lie: what am I doing in this “old tin shack” when I have a flash brand new house with all the bells and whistles just the other side of the Bridge???? Yes, and the Bridge, TALKING ABOUT A MEMORY GUZLER! I for one just can’t wait for the day when this Jekyll and Hide set up will be unified into one powerful interface. I wish Caligari had gone the other way: ditch the whole ts6.6 architecture completely, and create a completely different ts7 SANS modeler. Concerns about plug-in compatibility may have been an overriding factor for not doing so, but if ts7 was going to be such a super 3D tool, who would need plug-ins anyway?
In a unified version of ts7 (ts8?), let’s dump the name of “Player” (to me this has connotation of “not serious”, “playing around”, “toy”), and choose “DESIGNER” or “CANVAS” or “DESIGN BOARD” or “DESIGN CANVAS” or “TABLEAU” or “BUILDER” or “BUILDBOARD”.
Just a few suggestions. |
Post by Alien // May 11, 2006, 11:34am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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In a unified version of ts7 (ts8?), let’s dump the name of “Player” (to me this has connotation of “not serious”, “playing around”, “toy”), and choose “DESIGNER” or “CANVAS” or “DESIGN BOARD” or “DESIGN CANVAS” or “TABLEAU” or “BUILDER” or “BUILDBOARD”.
I definitely agree, & out of the 1s you suggest Designer & Builder sound ok to me - certainly infinitely better than "Player". |
Post by GraySho // May 11, 2006, 11:43am
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GraySho
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Your are speaking from my soul i_maker. "A more unified interface" is exactly what I tried to say in the other thread about interface suggestions. And the interface is one big key selling point. If a software is the most powerful available, but the interface sucks, very few people will use it. I don't want to say that the interface of ts7 sucks, but it needs a lot of work and thought. I hope the users are heard. |
Post by parva // May 11, 2006, 10:37pm
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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I can fully understand but to just say "the GUI sucks" why not make some samples how you would like the interface should look?
Some screenshots or alike. We have some very talented artists around.
I'm not Roman and can't make a poll and you should keep the spirit of trueSpace (icon based interface etc. but I'm sure you know what I mean) but why not show some ideas? |
Post by xmanflash // May 12, 2006, 3:35am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I can fully understand but to just say "the GUI sucks" why not make some samples how you would like the interface should look?
Some screenshots or alike. We have some very talented artists around.
I'm not Roman and can't make a poll and you should keep the spirit of trueSpace (icon based interface etc. but I'm sure you know what I mean) but why not show some ideas?
I think that the interface as it stands would have been great for earlier version of truepace with less functions, but it seems to me that when the golden rule of interface design is a maximum of 7 icons/objects per screen for instant recognition, then having hundrends of posible icons available is a problem.
The GUI doesnt suck, it just doesnt always work correctly, it is overgrown, and needs refining back to a simpler system IMHO.
Most applications that are aesily learned tend to use the techniques of the underlying operating system in terms of windows/menus etc. I use video edit product called Edius and when designed it had an icon based system that now after 3 years is being retrofitted with much more standard interface styles, as one of the major complaints was that there was no carry over from the standard applications interface to this product, which rendered it almost unuseable for some people (and not all mind you).
The sheer fact that we are all different makes a common GUI almost neccessary, and a GUI that departs from that is usually a beauty in the eye of the beholder, and possibly the opposite for many others. Standards bypass that to a degree.
And having such an open ended interface is also only really usefull to the expert, and confusing for the beginner.. You should not have to read the manual to be able to model simple objects, assuming you understand the concepts, and have experience in another mainstream product.
With Icons, mentally you have to translate from an icon, to the meaning of that icon, to the function behind the meaning for each viewing - which can be quite frustrating at first, especially when they are sometimes so small. I would assume that long term users would benefit though..
Personally I would like to see an alternative interface, based on the lowest common denominator - windows navigation, and then panels.. much like all the other 3D products. I love Messiah:Projects handling of navigation. Max is pretty easy to pick up, etc but I am beginning to realise that there is a LOAD of power in the underlying truespace technology that is possibly unrealised via the interface, and certainly hidden away, without reading and understanding a lot of the manual. And before I get any RTM comments you have to understand that time is money and any product that wastes my/anybodies time is going to cop some negative comments.
Can I draw my idea of the interface? - erm. don't have time - I'm trying to read the TS7 Manual (and getting those big biceps from holding it!) |
Post by GraySho // May 12, 2006, 8:43am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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I can fully understand but to just say "the GUI sucks" why not make some samples how you would like the interface should look?
I think you misread my post. I said " I don't want to say the interface sucks". As I mentioned in the other interface thread, I might make my own icons one day, and I posted a lot of suggestions. |
Post by optimiztic // May 12, 2006, 12:02pm
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The first thing that needs to go is the dual interface, the Player/Modeler dichotomy (Jekyll/Hyde -- or vice versa). I believe that this is Caligari's direction, and that they will ultimately unify the two. I don't understand why VRay is run from the Modeler with the bridge on, when it depends upon Player settings -- leaving the bridge on can really slow things down. Why can't we choose a VRay render from the Player window?
Ultimately, if there were one small set of important icons representing major tasks, with flyouts, on one main user window, it would be so much easier to find and use them. Also, if there are a lot of icons, I would like the icon finder to be able to find ALL of them.
I would also like to see a centralized set of option pages for all options that are not context sensitive, and some consistency in the way that context sensitive options are set.
Perhaps they might develop a common 'trueSpace' material format, into which would be translated some or all of the various materials for the proprietary renderers so that there would be a more complete suite for all the products. This may be a pipedream, considering the complexity of the task and the proprietary nature of the libraries.
And no, the interface does not suck. It is innovative and in the process of becoming even more innovative -- it is just currently split between the old and the new. One thing is immediately obvious, though. The NEW is a really big change from the OLD. :)
Don |
Post by Alien // May 12, 2006, 1:21pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I'm not Roman and can't make a poll
You can make a poll, anyone who starts a thread can when they start the thread.
Most applications that are easily learned tend to use the techniques of the underlying operating system in terms of windows/menus etc.
I agree to an extent, it's 1 thing to have a different way of doing things which some people might find better, but if possible there should also be the standard way to do things. I'm specifically thinking of numerical entry boxes that have that draggable double arrow <--> thing. It's useful for making big adjustments, but a pain in the arse for making fine adjustments. Would be nice if all numerical entry fields had mouse wheel functionality.
But not having the abiltiy to scroll libraries, etc with the mouse wheel... come on, that's been in probably at least 90% of windows progs [& IIRC quite a few Linux 1s too] for years now, not having it in tS is just wrong. :(
I would also like to see a centralized set of option pages for all options that are not context sensitive, and some consistency in the way that context sensitive options are set.
Good idea.
Perhaps they might develop a common 'trueSpace' material format, into which would be translated some or all of the various materials for the proprietary renderers so that there would be a more complete suite for all the products. This may be a pipedream, considering the complexity of the task and the proprietary nature of the libraries.
Hmmm... yes, kinda like the way game designers design for DirectX & not for specific graphic cards. It may well be a pipedream, but it's a very nice 1. :) |
Post by roman // May 12, 2006, 1:52pm
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roman
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Thanks for your feedback guys, it is great to see such a mature suggestions, we will act on them. Dual interface is kind of "water under the bridge" now (pun intended), we could have developed TS7 without backward compatibility but we thought it important so that is that. Good news is that in 7.5 a lot more stuff, including VRay, animation and many modeling tools will be moved over to Player (or should I say "Builder"?).
As for having just one material format that is just what you said, a "pipe dream", individual render engines are just too different. We learned the hard way from gameSpace experience, game developers are far from using X format as standard, in fact they each create their own little weird format and expect everyone to support it. I wish life was simpler but people always want to be diferent, mostly some of them:) |
Post by trueBlue // May 12, 2006, 2:06pm
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How about naming Player to "Space" |
Post by GraySho // May 12, 2006, 2:34pm
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Total Posts: 695
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This is what I've been working on the last hour. By doing this, I realized what my problem with the new interface was. It's missing a common structure and shows too much at once. As I said before, I like simplicity and clear lines and structures. I realized that there are currently a few different directions of design just in stack view. The library looks different than the preferences. Anyway, this is what I have come up with, including some of my ideas for the interface that would be nice to have.
edit: a link to the image, it's quite big. http://www.spacerat.at/temp/gui1.jpg |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 2:42pm
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As far as I am aware the expanded toolbars are still on the to-do list... |
Post by Alien // May 12, 2006, 3:28pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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(or should I say "Builder"?)
Either "Designer" or "Builder" would get my vote. |
Post by xmanflash // May 12, 2006, 10:07pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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This is what I've been working on the last hour. By doing this, I realized what my problem with the new interface was. It's missing a common structure and shows too much at once. As I said before, I like simplicity and clear lines and structures. I realized that there are currently a few different directions of design just in stack view. The library looks different than the preferences. Anyway, this is what I have come up with, including some of my ideas for the interface that would be nice to have.
edit: a link to the image, it's quite big. http://www.spacerat.at/temp/gui1.jpg
Yep - that looks pretty close to what I was thinking - thats a great start there.. |
Post by parva // May 13, 2006, 12:00am
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Total Posts: 822
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I think you misread my post. I said " I don't want to say the interface sucks". As I mentioned in the other interface thread, I might make my own icons one day, and I posted a lot of suggestions.
sorry, my fault.
I agree with most of the points here. Logically most use other programs and like that influences from those and features should be adapted by trueSpace. I make no exception for me.
btw. many other companys come to use with the floating and dockable windows (zbrush, hexagon, silo2, modo, maxwell studio are those I can remember) and seems to become a standart in future GUI design.
Personally I see no advantage in the screenshot from GraySho.
- In the bar there are too many tabs. I would put them in the 1D,2D,3D pulldown menue. Artist and Developer tabs could placed in the LE prefs.
- there is no divider between the stackbar and the 3d window. All windows are floatable. They need a frame and at best one where if you click at the middle section the whole window minimize. Maximize function is nice but brings just one window to top. What I dislike here is that doubleclick at the bar maximize also, this is frustration if you hit the orange triangle to fast... and btw. the orange triangle is too tiny for the windows in the LE. After some time with working in the LE you must decrease you working speed just to hit this triangle
- stackbar is too unorganized. tool commands, scene objects, object lister all in one window... it looks nice and handy for the first view but now think that tool commands can have a long list of adjustable settings, you will loose fast the overview which can still happen yet because the commands don't close auotmatically if they no longer needed or at least minimize. This should be fixed or we get a huge problem later. I would let the organisation which is similar like 3dsMax it does.
And whats wrong with the doubleclick of the bar and maximize function for the windows should be replaced for the windows in the stackbar. It's picky to hit this tiny minimize/maximize button.
Why can't we choose a VRay render from the Player window? I'm waiting for that too and I guess it will come next ;) |
Post by GraySho // May 13, 2006, 2:09am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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In the bar there are too many tabs. I would put them in the 1D,2D,3D pulldown menue. Artist and Developer tabs could placed in the LE prefs.
I agree with this one. I wouldn't mind a dropdown menu either. It would help those people with smaller screen resolutions (like Laptop users). Just unify the windows to a common standard.
The zoom behaviour like in PSP is also a very good point. I like that very much.
Btw, I have updated my design study :rolleyes: |
Post by Humdinger // May 13, 2006, 3:06am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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As far as I am aware the expanded toolbars are still on the to-do list...
God I hope this is added back for TS 7.5
I would have had a nutty if I got 7.0 to find this out.
Nothing worse than when a company changes thier product based on reviews and not the requests of thier users. When I use TS I am not 'dainty' I like to move around click , turn,zoom etc...and any 'extra' clicks really get on my nerves. If menus are in my way..? I click TAB...simple enough
If i had to expand every tool bar each time as it appears I need to do with 7.0?
That alone may have made me return it...yeah a bit extreme I know.
PLEASE....return this feature in 7.5 |
Post by Humdinger // May 13, 2006, 3:18am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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BTW
for the record...?
I love Icons...one of the reasons I never tried to completely switch to Max or XSI is the interfaces.
As a '2d' artist I loved/love the icons as i think visulally... and would vomit at the drop down menus in MAX.
So a 'review' that showed a workspace 'cluttered' with icons...?
Makes ME feel right at home.
Charcater Animation tools...that's what we need...not interface changes.. (though the new icons look very nice)..other than those required by the new code kernel.
Any review(s) that does not address the fact..repeat FACT..that character animation still lags wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy behind other applications..is to me...not to be taken seriously. TS 6.6 could model just fine thank you..as i am rarely impressed with models that have millions of polygons. Especially when it comes time to ANIMATE them. |
Post by Humdinger // May 13, 2006, 4:49am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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For the record this is what my 'base' TS 6.6 layout looks like.
1........... Can not image people not working with two monitors...a MUST feature if you use plug-ins. I started to do so about a year ago..changed so much in terms of speed.
The prices on cards that supprt such features and monitors that can at least support 1024 x 780 are out there..less that 200.00 for card and extra monitor..with 256 MEG on video cards... Try it...you will love it! and never look back..not just for TS by the way..you will love it all the time.
2............. My res is only at 1280 x 1024..on each monitor....the more the merrier. Once again anyone working much lower than that..and also commenting on the icons and 'screen clutter'..is a giving a false impression.
This is a serious application....not just 'fun' like say a BRYCE or a POSER..and to work at 800 x 600 on one monitor for exmaple is just insanity...if you are then going to comment on the interface..as a reviewer or a user.
------Nothing fancy
A few customized tool bars..almost all maximized..and note all sorts of 'bonus' pointer icons...makes that tool accessible all the time...
Did i mention I HATE the keyboard...lol...try to never touch it!...lol..so sure lots of keyboard click this and that stuff I never take advantage of..even 'right mouse click' if I do not have to do it..? Why bother! Lets me just think about WHAT i am doing not HOW I am doing it.
Sometimes...it really is the simple stuff
http://www.meobeco.com/odds/tsscreen.jpg
for the record again...I do love Poser... :).. Byrce..? Eh...yawn! |
Post by chrono // May 13, 2006, 5:05am
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So if I put little Post-its on your screen that you had to move everytime you wanted to see what you are doing in a select area you'd be fine with that? You don't like extra clicks but are comfortable clicking the 'tab' key?
Seriously though you can have icons but when you have trays taking up screen space it simply makes no sense not to also have an iconless work area. The drop down screens are a must because they are faster.
If TS can get it's interface to be completely programmable then it's 'standard' interface wouldn't been seen alot because then the community would be making their own. You'll see plenty of hybrid interfaces that are more colorful, simpler, and faster. |
Post by stan // May 13, 2006, 5:25am
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Parva we already have floating/dockable windows..I don't like how they dock, but they do dock..it would be better if there was an auto-hide option when docked..so the window would reduce to a tab/icon, move your mouse over the tab and it opens..visual studio works that way..
the full screen workspace is truespace to me..
the new concept of a row of tabs on top for layouts is redundant..they exist in the layout library..and how often do you need to change layouts..I use to for plugins but now you can just create toolbars for plugins and stow them in the UI/WM library, pop them in the LE in your layouts "Windows manager space" restart truespace and the toolbar is there on screen..[couldn't do that in ts7.0, but you can in ts7.1]
mousewheel scroll in stack is a must..also if I select a library via it's icon it should rise to the top of the stack..even better would be an option to have only one library open at a time in stack..fully expanded..too much time gets spent using the libraries now..and bring back large thumbnails with text..
why do we need to give the player a new name..model will be phased out..then those tab will be gone..unless they leave the bridge as an option so we can use old plugins even after all tools have been moved ..
Humdinger..I too don't like keyboards much..I like icons..sadly tab doesn't hide them in ts7.1 ..bring back TAB
give people a menu option for those who like them..which is just one large toolbar.. |
Post by parva // May 13, 2006, 6:15am
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Parva we already have floating/dockable windows..
Yes, I know. With the list I mean that other programs do this as well and personally I like that but for trueSpace I would like to see a minimize feature.
Again it's my personally view of site but it's a general feature. I think everyone will have his own imagination how a good GUI should look like and that's the reason why we should discuss how the basics should look IMHO.
...and I like keyboards. The kind of speed increasment you got with them is important especially at modeling (there I'm with chrono - I guess the same one like in Nevercenter forum right? :D). |
Post by Humdinger // May 13, 2006, 6:18am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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Chrono...
I was addressing the ability to maximize the toolbar if I wanted.
I ..me...nosotro...
:)
that is all.
---------------------------------------
Stan....
No more TAB either....? (Btw ...Chorono..lol..i am not THAT anal..so some keys are fine with me)
Yes..bring that 'back' as well...I guess when maximizing was removed the need for the TAB feature seemed useless...?
We need both! |
Post by stan // May 13, 2006, 6:27am
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stan
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Humdinger TAB only hides panels now..I have found a weird way to hide all icons when rendering..
too bad they didn't get the maximize toolbars feature working again in ts7.1..they never should have removed that function..
Parva..auto-hide would do the trick..save a click..we can minimize windows now if you use a floating layout..auto-hide would give more 3d workspace for those with a single monitor |
Post by Shike // Jun 5, 2006, 12:46am
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Hm, I actually like the new interface in ts7 even if I havn't crossed over completely from ts6.6 yet...old WIP feels safer to continue in it's native version but new stuff I do in tS7.:D
( I use a combination of keyboard shortcuts and custom interface with the icons I use constantly visible. Can never remember which flyout to look for things. ;) )
Also, I don't use trueSpace professionally...only as a hobby, which might be why I'm pretty relaxed about the development.
To think how much time Caligari would have saved if they had named the
MODELER view to "trueSpace 6.9"
PLAYER view to "trueSpace 7"
I was one of thoose who in the beginning didn't quite understand what was going on and thought that Player was just a DX9 viewer :o
The move Caligari has choosen isn't new, I've seen it before with the CAD software I've been reseller for and are therefore used to it.:rolleyes:
CAD Examples:
Pro/ENGINEER:
A great core but old text-menu based interface.
They started to create a new icon-based interface on top of the old one. Looked very nice and modern but when using non-converted functions the old menues popped up.
Good:
The new interface was extremely nice and easy to learn.
Bad:
Old customers either preferred the old one or didn't have time to learn the new one.
New customers were slightly confused about having to learn two interfaces.
CATIA V4 - CATIA V5
V4 only ran on Unix, had a complicated interface and was hard to learn and had a ancient core and workmethodology.
V5 A completely new core written from scratch.
Good:
The new core works on both unix and windows and it's easier to implement new advanced functionality. A new easy to learn interface.
Bad:
It took time to get to a level comparable with V4. I think V5 reached release 10 before old V4 customers started to take it seriously.(the latest release i R16)
For old customers it's like learning a completely new software.
CALIGARI trueSpace7:
I think they've choosen a good path. Sorta a mix of the CAD systems mentioned.
Good:
Rewriting the core since the old one wasn't easy to expand on.
Including the old core (Modeler) until the conversion is complete.
Bad:
Bridge performance...looking foward to the time when it isn't needed :D |
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