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Aug 4, 2001, 1:00am

Thanks to everyone who came to the CU Brainstorming meeting. Got lots of good input
from everyone! For those who were unable to make it, here's the plan we got so far:

1. Appoint 5 representatives, one for each category of concerns (Tentative list:
Community, Worlds, Objects, Features, and General)

2. Hold (weekly? bi-weekly?) structured meetings that are open to the public where
they can voice concerns and ideas. The Union reps will then compile these concerns
into prioritized lists.

3. The reps will then have a meeting with AWC staff once a month to relay and lobby
concerns to the staff and receive explanations about requests and concerns, which
will then be relayed back to the community during community meetings and on the
(soon-to-be-revamped) website at http://citizenunion.cjb.net

4. Every so often, there will be elections to determine new reps for each category.

That's the plan so far. The next step is to present this idea to Rick & Co. and make
sure they'll cooperate with it. Once that goes through, we can choose the first round
of reps and then start having community meetings!

For the complete log of the first meeting, visit
http://utn.haveman.net/citunion/CUMeeting1.txt

Again, thanks to all who attended! With your help, we *can* make a difference!

--
Goober King
Time to get the ball.rwx rolling...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Aug 4, 2001, 5:04am

Looks like theres really some action going on... I just wish I coulda been
there myself (modem died in the middle of tech talk) but I'm gonna show up
next time and see if I can help out :)


[View Quote]

Aug 4, 2001, 9:53am

Well, good luck, because knowing how little control some ppl have over
themselves, you'll need it... :o)

Being as how ActiveWorlds is a benevolent dictatorship (they own the
software and they care about it), it's not in the best interest of AWC to
allow it's users to rule it... They are running a business not a fan
club...

I know for a fact that AWC "DOES" listen to users, just not ALL of them ALL
of the time... Since many ppl can't see that or believe it, many will
continue to stomp their feet and claim that AWC sits in their ivory tower
and never hears their voice... People that think that are wrong, but then
what else is new??? :o)

I do want to offer this encouragement though:::
If the meetings can be kept from becoming "I HATE AWC BECAUSE" seminars, you
just might get somewhere with them... It's up to the ppl that attend to
make them productive to the point where they are worth the time for AWC to
spend listening in and possibly acting on things that come out of the
meetings -- that is if they are good, viable ideas and not in the works
already!!!... *G*

*hugs*
Daphne

P.S. I am sorry I didn't make it to the meeting to see how it went but I
wasn't feeling quite up to par yesterday and got off line earlier than I
usually do... :o(

[View Quote]

Aug 4, 2001, 10:39am

Sounds like some good stuff was accomplished in the first meeting. Wish i
could have attended but read the log. Here's my 2 cents worth of
observations for whatever they are worth in no special order and i look
forward to the next mtg:

~ CU has to be a true representation of the entire community - not just
programming, not just fluff. If it's not a true representation, then it
just becomes the same entity we are trying to get to listen to us. Sounds
like the categories of concern cover a wide enough range to meet all needs.

~ But how do you be a true representation of a large community yet remain
effective? Totally open meetings are necessary and fair but also can be
sooo cumbersome to get anything done. I like the idea of submitting
suggestions to the website. Why not take it a step further and create
agenda items from this list of suggestions in order to stay on track -
agenda could be posted in advance for those to decide if they want to attend
the open mtg or not. Suggestions that dont make it on the agenda could roll
over to next meeting. Roberts rules of order sort of thing.....or using a
model from RL town meetings.

~Community has to come together better and agree to certain rules in order
to be effective. We are not all going to agree with each other but we can
agree to certain rules of behaviour so that the wider community portion of
the meeting can remain open and something can be accomplished for the good
of all. Petty bickering and going off track will only work against us. I
think there should be some basic open meeting rules and eject if they aren't
followed. Thats the way real life works.

~Appointing reps that are eventually elected seems fair and allows for
getting the ball rolling faster.

~On AW website they brag on the COMMUNITY as being an incredibly active
group of individuals who provides itself on its community spirit. I assume
they do this to draw in more people. If they want to continue using
COMMUNITY as an advertising tool AND be credible, they really have to be
responsive to this idea.


~Syli~
<snip>

Aug 4, 2001, 12:05pm

I would like to thank Roland, HamFon, Facter and Lu, actually the only persons I
know of the aw staff, for the time spent with us and for their work and
improvements to the browser and support. No one is typing this and have never,
only whines and cussing. I am not sure they ever deserved it, so I just wanted
to send a few lines. It hurts me to hear 'they are annoying', hurts more when it
is even swearing. I get better when I think the most are kids round here. For
phsycological support I would suggest another universe to the folks that are not
taking advantage of the huge free one offered by aw staff (lol)
icey

[View Quote] > Well, good luck, because knowing how little control some ppl have over
> themselves, you'll need it... :o)
>
> Being as how ActiveWorlds is a benevolent dictatorship (they own the
> software and they care about it), it's not in the best interest of AWC to
> allow it's users to rule it... They are running a business not a fan
> club...
>
> I know for a fact that AWC "DOES" listen to users, just not ALL of them ALL
> of the time... Since many ppl can't see that or believe it, many will
> continue to stomp their feet and claim that AWC sits in their ivory tower
> and never hears their voice... People that think that are wrong, but then
> what else is new??? :o)
>
> I do want to offer this encouragement though:::
> If the meetings can be kept from becoming "I HATE AWC BECAUSE" seminars, you
> just might get somewhere with them... It's up to the ppl that attend to
> make them productive to the point where they are worth the time for AWC to
> spend listening in and possibly acting on things that come out of the
> meetings -- that is if they are good, viable ideas and not in the works
> already!!!... *G*
>
> *hugs*
> Daphne
>
> P.S. I am sorry I didn't make it to the meeting to see how it went but I
> wasn't feeling quite up to par yesterday and got off line earlier than I
> usually do... :o(
>
[View Quote]

Aug 4, 2001, 2:34pm

I'm positive the community meetings will be degraded to the levels that you speak of (Until it gets so annoying that the ejection
weapons come out), but those who communicate directly with AWC will be selected carefully.
[View Quote]

Aug 4, 2001, 5:08pm

I'm not sure what the "objects" catagory means. Community is obvious, worlds
would do what...try to get better worlds packages and the like. Features
would be new features in the rwx and maybe browser, but wouldn't objects
fall into the features catagory?

Aug 4, 2001, 6:14pm

Goober King,
It sounds like you've got the ball rolling on a very good idea.

However, It all comes down to this...

First.. *If* AWC accepts this idea (big if...), how is the leadership of the
CU going to play with the leadership of AWC? Is the CU just going to be a
way to consolidate all the bitching into a list of what gets bitched about
most, or will we actually be able to affect the course of AW?

What guarantee do we have that AWC will listen to what the CU wants? For
example, if the CU meets with AWC one month and says "We'd like to see
feature X in the next version of AW." Will AWC have any kind of requirement
to follow that up (by adding the feature)?

Will our requests have priority equal to or greater than those of AWC, or
the same "if we get a chance" priority as the requests of individual
citizens?

I don't expect the CU to start running activeworlds.. But there is a fine
line between that, and the same old bitching with no response that goes on
now. Something will have to be worked out so that the CU has enough control
or input into decisions to get stuff done ( but not too much, mind you) Who
decides how much input the CU has, and how will AWC go about granting that
still remains a mystery.....

I'm tending to believe the next thing people will be complaining about is
that AWC isn't listening to the CU... the CU will dissolve from lack of
community interest (mostly because AWC does little or nothing of what the CU
asks)... and all this work is in vein. I know that's a pretty pessimistic
outlook on things... But if AWC doesn't have any kind of commitment to the
CU (which they say they have a commitment to the "community" AKA "the CU")
then the CU is going to become useless very quickly...

AWC is a company.. A business... And therefore, we cannot expect to run it,
or have any control over their decisions at all. That is left to the owners.
But, if the CU expects to get anything done, we'll have to get around this
problem somehow.

Don't get me wrong. I am very much in favor of this group. But there above
problems will have to addressed. But, I fear another failed attempt at
organization will only harm the relationship between AWC and the community.


Regards,
Jeremy

Jeremy AKA "JerMe" (#296967)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeremy Booker
JTech Web Systems
(www.JTechWebSystems.com -- Coming Soon)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[View Quote]

Aug 4, 2001, 6:32pm

As far as I can tell, they'll have no obligation. However, Rick said they'd listen. He's going to get held to that. I'd think they'd
give answers why and why not to each one of the concerns voiced to them. Perhaps take an organized list from an open forum of
citizens more seriously than even their suggestion box, which has little to no exposure outside of these newsgroups.
[View Quote]

Aug 4, 2001, 7:06pm

The beauty of an organized "bitching" group rather than just a bunch of
"bitching" people is that rather than just a bunch of people shouting out
what they want and complaining about the fact that it is not implemented in
the software the very next day, there would be an organized way of
*communicating* with AWC. As Wing and GK said, Rick showed interest in
communicating with the community, but he can't work with the community when
it is a bunch of random people "bitching."

Look at it from this angle: AWC (and therefore Rick Noll) is supreme ruler
of AW, and they can do whatever they want from it. However, it seems that
Rick has recognized that the community is important. If someone can set up
an organization that is responsible for communicating with those who rule
absolutely the universe, and if said rulers are willing to listen (which it
sounds like they are), perhaps we can finally get ideas exchanged. Perhaps,
rather than ideas simply being ignored, we can get a flat-out GOOD excuse of
why they will not be implemented, or (better yet) we can organize an actual
physical The List(tm) with Estimated Completion Dates and all.

Right...

-John


[View Quote] ____________________________________________
Jeff Tickle (John Viper, #296714)
jviper at jtsoft.net
http://www.jtsoft.net

Aug 4, 2001, 9:56pm

Public world objects.


[View Quote]

Aug 4, 2001, 10:04pm

Oh like alpha world and those.. places?

So that person would focus on public building areas? Maybe call that
position "public building world" rather than "objects".

Aug 5, 2001, 2:25pm

This is why the Union will be kept to five people. Those will be the only people that
interact with AWC and it will be kept professional and to the point. The community
meetings, on the other hand, may degenerate into AWC hate sessions, but it will be up
to the Union reps that are running it to be able to pick out the gems of suggestions
and ideas from all the crap being spewed forth and turn it into something presentable
for AWC. The Union sifts the dirt to find the gold :)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Citizen Union - Gold Diggers
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Aug 5, 2001, 2:29pm

An itemized list definitely sounds like a good idea. In fact, I was picturing having
on the CU website a page that list all concerns brought to the Union and their
current status, whether they're being worked on, have been implemented, or rejected,
and giving reasons for why they were rejected.

As for AWC working with this, that's the next step. Before anyone is appointed as a
rep, we need to make sure AWC is cool with the idea and is willing to work with it.
And since no one at AWC seems to check their email on the weekends, we'll have to
wait until Monday for an answer, I guess. :-/

[View Quote] --
Goober King
The ball's in their court now...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Aug 5, 2001, 2:31pm

Basically it's for anyone who has object ideas for AWC-owned public building worlds.
For instance, if some wants to see some new objects in COFMeta, that will get added
to the list of Object concerns and put forth to AWC. But it doesn't deal with any
other aspect of world owning; that's what the "Worlds" category is for :)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Had to put *something* there :P
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Aug 5, 2001, 6:09pm

I think you're definitely on the right track, Goober. If you pick calm, intelligent, sensible people for the 5 representatives, it doesn't really matter how wild and wooly the open meetings might be. Let everyone talk at will - whether saying something intelligent or something totally off the wall. Off-topic, bashing, flaming, silliness...whatever. Don't bother trying to make people adhere to a protocol of "!" or "?" or waiting to be recognized before speaking. Just give 'em free rein at the open meeting. The good ideas will hit the chat window (along with everything else.) :-)

If the C.U. reps are worth their salt, the fast scrolling chat at a wide open meeting isn't going to bother them at all. The reps (and anyone else) can always go back through a chat log later, to find the gold, as you put it. :-) If extraneous chatter bothers others... well, that's what the good old Mute feature is for. :-)

I'd suggest the open meetings be held at a very empty location in AWUniv world. Empty - so no one will have a problem arriving at a laggy download. No stage, no "decorations" no "mini-gz", no building.
Just one sign, perhaps, saying "Citizens Union Open Meeting - day and time". After all the people who attend will be all the decoration needed! :-)

You're really trying to make a difference, Goober King. Thanks! :-)

Lara

[View Quote]

Aug 5, 2001, 9:48pm

Goober - with my plans for AWDebate, I would be happy to work with CU in reaching our goals, let me know if there is anything myself
or anyone involved with the AWDebate project can do for you.

[View Quote]

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