Are we rewriting or not?? (Community)

Are we rewriting or not?? // Community

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nornny

Jul 20, 2001, 10:39am
Apparently, you guys want a rewrite of this community charter and Facter
said start a thread and he'll give it the time of day, so, if you guys are
too slow or lazy to start one, I will.

Here's the BIGGEST oppurtunity we might ever get from AWC, so you might as
well take advantage of it before you begin your sulky
"AWC-never-listens-to-us" and "yes-they-do" battles. :)

Topics we'll prolly need to discuss for adding/deleting/editing the charter:

1) HTML posting - personally, I think the best compromise we'll EVER reach
here is to use HTML in general.discussion and use plain text in community.
Keep one old school and keep the other new school. Punishment? I don't think
it's really worth a punishment, though, whoever does will prolly get
extremely abused and that's enough of a spanking. If worse comes to worse,
submit an abuse report for breaking newsgroup rules.

2) What we REALLY talk about - The charter has been somewhat outdated on
topics we discuss in some aspects. Basically, I think off-topic is spam, not
plugs and swears, not flame wars. You guys are just too sensitive to harsh
criticism in my opinion. I'd like to personally have a clause saying test
posts should be dumped in the general.discussion newsgroup also. I know it's
kinda difficult at this moment for a newbie to even FIND the
general.discussion, but by the time this charter is in the final stages,
Facter will have a new website anywho (yes, that long. j/k)
As for Eep style language...I dunno, that's a brain twister. He's harsh,
brutally harsh. It's obvious we shouldn't give him any mercy for his
language like we give the HTMLers. I say, don't accept the "yo
twit<expletive>" here in the community, but accept it in the
general.discussion. Seems clear enough. A newsgroup without Eep would be a
mess, as we so thoroughly see time and time again. The guy has a bunch of
references, who wants to lose that part of the gene pool. lol. And if you
think about it, some people REALLY need to evolve and stop starting
conflicts and start solving them.

Punishment? Facter's one week suspension is good. Hopefully, it doesn't make
a newbie (or oldie) really mad and just tear up this newsgroup. It's obvious
we can do it ourselves. ;)

3) Anything else?? I think there should be something that stops those sly
and chicken people who cause a ruckus subtly and within the rules, that's
tough though. We should really highlight more that we're no different than a
regular non-binary usenet newsgroup and that we follow usenet rules. We
should really take out the censorship part and replace it with something
more realistic, as Facter rarely censors any posts, besides one or two of
Eeps in a blue moon. We can make it legal for Facter to delete or censor
posts about whatever you guys feel is neccessary, but really just say that
the newsgroup will deal with you in itself.

That's all, really. :) Opinions, comments, I have my helmet ready for any
flames, so bring it on. It's time to work together gang. :))

Nornny

m a r c u s

Jul 20, 2001, 11:21am
"Basically, I think off-topic is spam, not plugs and swears, not flame wars.
You guys are just too sensitive to harsh criticism in my opinion."

I agree nornny, also I would like to mention since we don't have something
besides the first message of a post to judge any response within the thread
as "off-topic", it is hard to address a flame to a post as being
"off-topic". My suggestion would be to allow some degree of flaming (I
prefer the term subjective criticism), but require some intelligent response
to accompany that flame. This way we know they are at least addressing the
topic independent of any flame. Those that just flame without adding some
useful dialogue can be easier dealt with on the basis of not adding
something else to the conversation and easier to distinguish right and
wrong.

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facter facter@awsupport

Jul 20, 2001, 11:33am
Please note, I have not at all said that the charter WILL be re-written,
that would require alot of discussion here as well, I just jsut saying that
I would like to see you guys discuss it so I can get a better idea at the
moment as to what could be possibly done.

Facter
AW Support

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goober king

Jul 20, 2001, 12:19pm
I don't see how you could require someone to post something intelligent. In your
view, that's about as lame as requiring newbies to know enough to not post in HTML.
Some people just aren't smart enough to be able to do anything besides flaming. Those
people are subsequently beaten to death here in the NG until they either shape up, or
leave. It's been a pretty effective tool, for the most part...

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Besides, intelligence is relative...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

m a r c u s

Jul 20, 2001, 1:36pm
Goober, you just gave an example of how someone can flame and add to a post.
If you said, "that is lame", and then did this on a regular basis time after
time being told not to by AW (not a fellow poster)then it would be easier
for AW to handle that kind of posting which is just out to flame and nothing
more.

I don't care if you say it's a lame idea and add to it like you did. I see
your point also, and if the Newsgroup were only intended for newbies, it
would be lame idea. However, people become regulars and are no longer
newbies. It is those people I am addressing that could be expected to add
something to their flame.


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gamer

Jul 20, 2001, 3:12pm
Not so much a rule more, more a request...

Why don't you ask the other members of AWCOM to read the NGs?
If Rick, JP, Roland and the rest read the NGs more often, even daily...just
for 10 minutes...they could keep up to date on community issues...
It would also show some of the people round here that doubt it, that AWCOM
does care, and that they do list to cits...I'm say I belive that...but I
might if you guys showed up a lil' around and about :)

-Gamer

gamer

Jul 20, 2001, 3:14pm
Gah....I can't spell

Corrected for those that don't speak fluent Typonese:

-----------------------------------------------------
Not so much a rule more, more a request...

Why don't you ask the other members of AWCOM to read the NGs?
If Rick, JP, Roland and the rest read the NGs more often, even daily...just
for 10 minutes...they could keep up to date on community issues...
It would also show some of the people round here that doubt it, that AWCOM
does care, and that they do listen to cits...I'm not saying I believe
that...but I
might if you guys showed up a lil' around and about :)

-Gamer

j b e l l

Jul 20, 2001, 7:56pm
Here's another thing.. we whine about AWC not listening to us, yet Facter is listening to our every word.. hmm..

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j b e l l

Jul 20, 2001, 7:57pm
you have to keep in mind that what you might consider irrelivent, another might consider breaking news, where will you draw the
line? who's "oppinion" will decide which is ok?

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sw chris

Jul 20, 2001, 10:13pm
I say don't make the general discussion group a dumping ground for flame
wars and useless posts. That seems to be what you think it should be. It's
general discussion after all, not Offtopic.Flames. Right now it's
functioning just as well as the community group.

The community and general discussion newsgroups should have the same
charter, the only differences in each being what is considered on and off
topic.

And in the interest of compromise, HTML posting should also be allowed in
general discussion, but _only_ if it's in taste. No colorful/clashy
backgrounds or text, or anything over 10 kb. And images should be linked,
not posted.

Chris

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sw chris

Jul 20, 2001, 10:15pm
I think you're beginning to flame marcus just for the heck of it. :) I
agree, self-policing is usually a good way to work through things here.

Chris

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sw chris

Jul 20, 2001, 10:19pm
I am afraid, Gamer, that nomatter what someone tries to do, there will
always be at least one person who doesn't like it or will whine
regardlessly.

I think Rick and JP should read the NGs at least once a day, and perhaps
post here from time to time. That will definitely show most of us around
here that the company is listening, but it would not be an eye opener to
everyone.

SW Chris
Every party has a pooper that's why we invited you, Party Pooper. :)

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kellee

Jul 20, 2001, 10:36pm
Your darn right Nornny, has everyone noticed how just a few ppl always take
every thread and turn it into a flame war because of their need to argue
against certain ppl and not the topic?

if they dont happen to like a person then they must dispute what ever the
person says, regardless of whether it makes them look like an idiot for
arguing against something that is reasonable

It dosent matter what a person may post, light hearted or serious, flame or
complimentary, these few ppl have to ruin the thread.

It is THESE ppl that ruin the newsgroups by disputing ppls rights to have an
opinion, not Eep and his "forthright" comments that are usually true,
although not acceptable for the ppl who think that name calling is going to
hurt their widdle eyes.

[View Quote] I think there should be something that stops those sly
and chicken people who cause a ruckus subtly and within the rules

m a r c u s

Jul 20, 2001, 11:20pm
That is why I said you add something to the flame. It makes the decision a
binary one not subjective. It isn't that hard to figure out.

Words like "is" "are" "be" can be used often in a deragatory manner. (You
are an idiot), (He is the biggest loser), (That would be idiotic) are all
examples. It doesn't add anything, it doesn't provide intelligence, and it
amounts to flaming. Now, if you say I am an idiot, then explain it's
because I analyze things too much now you are using a reason for your flame.

All AW has to do is make that difference to take action. Did the person
flame with a reason or not and have the flamed without supporting their
comment on a continuos basis.


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m a r c u s

Jul 20, 2001, 11:30pm
"...has everyone noticed how just a few ppl always take
every thread and turn it into a flame war because of their need to argue
against certain ppl and not the topic?
"

"not acceptable for the ppl who think that name calling is going to
hurt their widdle eyes."

When you say those 2 things in the same post, I think it is self evident why
you might be singled out. If you don't want responses to address people but
a topic then please do it yourself, or is this the 3rd double standard of
yours that I have seen today?



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jerme

Jul 21, 2001, 2:35am
I believe the reason that so few AWCIers post here (or read for that matter)
is that, up until just recently, the ng's have been full of 95% crap.
Nothing but flame wars, simple announcements, flame wars, heated debates,
flame wars, threads that are humongus and take too long to read, yet more
flame wars, and still more flames (you should get the idea by now... ;-),
etc.... You're almost better off *not* reading them.

Another reason may be that they are afraid of getting cornored by Eep, or
someone else for that matter.. Evidenced by what happend to Factor recently.
Eep insults Factor, he replies decently, more insults... Factor did his best
to keep a profesional tone, but after a while that breaks down. Your only
solution is to sink to Eep's level and cus the person, or ingore them all
together.

I'm almost certin that the AWCI folks can find more constructive things to
do with thier time than reading/getting involved in flame wars, pointless
debates, and other nonsence. How about that new website?


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chucks party

Jul 21, 2001, 4:35am
Absolutely correct sir. We are trying to resolve that very problem now with
Facter's help. :)


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facter

Jul 21, 2001, 5:26am
You are assuming that they dont already read these groups.

They do.

But why would they post in here? Who here remembers when they used to post
in here all the time? I do.. And I remember that they could *never* post,
ever, without being abused, insulted or harrassed in some way, so I dont
blame them for not posting in here. Can you honestly say it would be any
different?

You guys honestly dont know what goes on some times, this is a classic
example of how little you understand what actually goes on at the offices.
They read these newsgroups - do you really think they wouldnt?

You'll never see a post in here from either of them (again, I dont blame
them at all after the treatment they receive from alot of people in here),
but dont make assumptions that what is written in here isnt read by more
people than you see posting.

Facter.

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facter

Jul 21, 2001, 5:27am
> I'm almost certin that the AWCI folks can find more constructive things to
> do with thier time than reading/getting involved in flame wars, pointless
> debates, and other nonsence. How about that new website?

My deadline for the first part of it is August 1st, I'm on track at the
moment. Not sure when it will all be up tho =)

F.


>
>
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kah

Jul 21, 2001, 8:52am
it's AWC now :-)) (they changed to ActiveWorlds Corporation)

KAH

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agent1

Jul 21, 2001, 11:43am
Once again, how are we to know how things work over there if we're never told?

-Agent1

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m a r c u s

Jul 21, 2001, 12:19pm
If they make a message board, which they can do, they can have people post,
and they can prioritize this message board so that ONLY the ones that
respect them and do not attack have priority when conversing.

To eliminate the whole group with contact because the rotten apples in the
bunch spolied it is not fair. I emailed you in January about message boards
and about a place where people can come to central location to discuss
issues about the program (that means programmers, CEO's, tourists, citizens,
etc..). You said there were no boards and just newsgroups. Well, what is
the point then in a NG, if it is only going to have the flamers and posts
with attacks? It doesn't make sense.

To the crew of AW that isn't going to respond, your silence does speak.
It's called Active Worlds, not inactiveworlds. You want my money, speak up
and show concern. Til then, I will buy things from people that do contact
me and do address matters. I bought 2 citzenships, $40 and then I found out
you had a citizenship with world purchases. If I buy a world now you get
$120, not $80. I ain't going to pay for your silence. Maybe if you
discussed the issues I had questions with me and you took the time to
address the matters I had when I was with the teachers like other CEO's,
programmers, help groups do, then maybe I would have chosen the world over 2
citzenships.

I didn't attack you calling you names. Show some respect to the people that
are respectful and contact us so we can find out you are there and that you
do care.

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agent1

Jul 21, 2001, 12:36pm
So temporary suspensions aren't good enough? You want to segregate the community into two groups? How would people be classified as "respectful"? Facter said he was going to start handing out suspensions; that should stop the "flamers and posts with attacks" that you're so worried about.

-Agent1

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m a r c u s

Jul 21, 2001, 2:38pm
Agent, please read the response I gave again cause I was referring to the
following:

"You'll never see a post in here from either of them [the offices?](again, I
dont blame
them at all after the treatment they receive from alot of people in here)"

I think you got it mixed up with another post thread where the discussion
was on html vs. plain text where I did assert something which could be read
as segregation. I suggested people have the choice, and when you give
people the choice you are not segregating but establishing sovereignty.
Segregating would be telling certains they are assigned to certain areas
without choice.


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m a r c u s

Jul 21, 2001, 2:40pm
(clarification)

Segregating would be telling certain people they are assigned to certain
areas
without choice.

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agent1

Jul 21, 2001, 2:47pm
No, you said you want a separate "forum" (newsgroup, whatever) for those users who are "respectful". What do you mean by respectful, and why do we need another area when this one is (supposedly) going to be policed (even though a lot more loosely) again?

-Agent1

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m a r c u s

Jul 21, 2001, 3:17pm
Ok, I see what you are saying. I mentioned message board, not Newsgroup.
The reason why I make this distinction is because here tourists and people
who have not even downloaded the program can't come here, but they could
come to a message board and post.

Take a look at http://www.flashkit.com

You will see in their board there are designated moderators who help keep
things intact on topic. It is one of the best run boards I have seen, and
full of advice when I get stuck on a problem.

I would say compared with the regulars here(not including me), there is
about twice as many moderators at flashkit.

This means if those regulars here had powers to moderate, then they would
have twice the amount of say so when put in a moderation position and be
representing a section of the community at the same time. I am not in favor
of one whole news.activeworlds.com run by 1 individual. So, far I only see
facter responding. Not attacking him, because I haven't seen him do
anything personally wrong but he is just one person. There should be
multiple people representing multiple positions here in the moderator seat.
Just like flashkit.com has people of different areas, this newsgroup could
be the same. I mentioned the respect issue in respect to the individual
moderator within this system. Therefore, it is not an either or
proposition. If you disrespect one moderator and you can not show a way to
make peace with them, then there are other moderators. If you strike out
with all moderators, then chances are you are out to just cause trouble and
not really benefit the group as a whole. I think people will think twice
before they attack moderators in this position.

Now, I think my assessment above is introducing citizens to help moderate
whereas the post was moreso with the AW staff responding. Therefore, just
substitute the 2 groups and you have what I was trying to propose. If you
can respect someone, this should be hard to accept. If you disrespect, well,
then you still have a chance with another AW staffer, but if you continue to
use the same behavior and the whole AW staff reacts the same way then you
will face the consequences and be put down the priority list. This will at
least give the people who want to talk to the staff with respect the chance.
Right now, I can't. Or, at least I don't know I am.

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m a r c u s

Jul 21, 2001, 3:20pm
"If you can respect someone, this SHOULD'NT be hard to accept by the
moderators.

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chucks party

Jul 21, 2001, 4:08pm
Yep, I don't doubt any of that for a minute. But if I can stand up to people and
get my point across and listen to people when they make sense, then I don't see
why anyone else can't do it. Ignoreing something doesn't make it go away, it
usually just gets worse, lol Sometimes it takes a better person to step up to
the plate and take it on the chin sometimes, alot like what happened to Tommy
Lasorda awhile ago in a baseball game, got hit in the chest by a bat fell down
like a weeble wobble and got back up again and stayed in the game, it's good for
the inflated ego!! LOL You Big Wigs! LOL


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wing

Jul 21, 2001, 11:54pm
As agent said, how are we to know if we aren't told? I'm sure a few public appearences that don't amount to running around GZ as a
blimp and some attention for those of us that know what in the hell we're doing. Fix the problems with building that only the most
elite run into on a regular basis. It may not get you any new users, but it'll keep us coming back for more, and making less work in
the longrun for you.

Show up at the Cys, speak to us. 90% of the crowd won't have the damndest clue what you're talking about, but those of us who do
will know. We'll know. Don't use your hiding accounts all the time. Doesn't mean you have to answer ALL our telegrams, maybe one a
day.

Go world hopping, see the sights of the universe. Check out some of the famous builds and cities in Alphaworld. This way you'll
truly get an idea of what Activeworlds is like in the general community, not in these rather heated newsgroups. Sure, you'll get
your egos hurt a lot at first, but once you come out of hiding, stuff will calm down, once you start giving us legitimate reasons
why not or actually implementing some ideas, we'll play even nicer. However, there are some of us, who have perfectly good ideas
(Eep) that can go on and on about the negative side indefinitely, so don't expect to please him, ever. But do listen to him. Many of
his ideas are feasable and logical, as well as useful.

Though these may not be the most... Productive ways to spend time, you'll make us happier, maybe intice a few new citizens to
register, improve the software to a point where more of us want to buy worlds to use it to it's fullest in.

Corperate deals won't make money forever, eventually interest will slacken off if there isn't a broad base of users to prove that
the software is actually useful.

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