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Feb 9, 2001, 5:01am

Eep could be suspended from this group, for a very simple reason - he broke
the newsgroup charter, he abuses his priviledge and he is an insulting,
faececious individual. I nor the company needed to even consult any of you -
but, I had respect for all of you.

Something had to be shown to Eep, so that he would realise the impact that
his insulting nature has had on this community - did you all want me to
stand back and go "yes eep, no eep, three bags full eep" ? Looking at it
now, just banning him would of been the best solution out of anything.

But it seems that the hope, that we could place a simple decision in the
hands of our users, has turned into something that I myself am disgusted in.
You all see now, why AWCI has really had user votes - and why when things
have been done, they are done in an administration manner - look at the mess
this whole situation has created - and you guys out there, all wonder why
the management at AWCI keeps a distance from these newsgroups.

Well, now you all know dont you ?

Now perhaps you realise exactly how divided, how bickering and how very
small our community really is. Its up to you people to fix it. I believed
that by giving you guys something that you *Always* asked for - democratic
processes, that this would help. By being completely open about the matter,
I allowed something totally different to be done - I approached the
situation with honesty and with the genuine intent to try and help a
situation which in my opinion was jsut going way too far.

I gave my opinions, I tried to engage the community in a rational decision.
I wished merely to assist you all, without being the brunt of abuse,
derogatory remarks and slander from a certain individual.

Please let me show you, first, before I go any further, the kind of person
that some of you are defending so much.

These are quoted insults he has used, mostly against me in the past day or
two - "power hungry", "shoving it off to the community", "ties too hard",
"power tripping", "low self esteem","You're such a fucking twit, "YOU, idiot
twitfuck moron pissant, have no grip on logic","Now evolve ","hypocrit,
(spelling Eep, again),"pathetic","Sure, one word: bullshit. "fucking with
the newsgroups","bullshit statements","bullshit artist","fucking
clone.","Because you have no life?","...a trip to a shrink might help.",".
Better lay off them drugs","superchamp wonder twinkie-zippy.
","Facter is weak since he can't handle the truth.","fucking full of
yourself","Only after continually insulting him" (he admits to continually
insulting people for his own pleasure),".

Some of you are DEFENDING this kind of person ? *shakes his head* - then
this community, had already gone to hell in a handbasket well before I tried
to help matters. How anyone can defend someone for that kind of behaviour is
beyond me. as an intelligent, caring and decent person I can find *no* way
in myself to see how any could possibly defend such.

Rick, JP and indeed the whole office is aware of this situation. Rick and JP
were spoken to before I even instigated the vote, or contemplated any
"Bannings". It was a general agreement, to try and involve the community in
some decision making, and to try and instill some kind of trust in allowing
a democratic process to be allowed on matters of discipline in this
newsgroup. I had the full support of my superiors, and indeed thought that
by trying to give the community something like this, a decision like this,
that it may go some way towards helping the rift that seems to be between
portions of the community and management.

It was tried, and it the process has failed.

From now, there will be no more technical support from myself in these
newsgroups. All support will now be done via email and no correspondance
between myself will be entered into in these newsgroups. Eep is welcome to
remain, but there will be moderation on posts if they are found to be of a
derogatory, insulting or offensive nature. If he _pushes_ the matter, and
merely continues to heap into this group posts of an insulting nature to
others including myself, then he will be banned, with no consultation or
appeal entered into.

On a personal note, I must say that my first foray into trying to help the
AW community in my capacity as a employee of AWCI, it has left a very bad
taste in my mouth. Instead of seeing potential, instead of seeing that I
could indeed help, instead of being polite, and courteous and respectful
towards me, Eep has attacked for no , insulted, provoked, defamed and made
mockery in his words of my professional manner.

On the matter of the newsgroup downtime, the downage was fully explained
explained on the outset (I even posted about it on the network status page,
and they were down for four hours, and the only persont hat noticed was you,
Eep) - do NOT twist that into something it is not Eep - my explaination was
a fully good one, and merely lacked down to the bare level details such as
"defraging harddrive, scandisk and a check of files - i mean, geez - "I took
down the server for maintenance" covers ALL of those things, which are some
of the things that were done on that morning.

I will no longer be posting to these newsgroups. There will be no more
"votes" in these newsgroups, and as I stated before, there will be
moderation of offensive posts, and Eep will especially be looked at.
Obviously, there is a large portion of people here who, for some reason,
wish he remains (they may not even be a majority) but for whatever reason,
he may do so - on conditions, and if those conditions are not met, thent he
matter will be dealt with in accordance to charter guidelines. All users of
this newsgroup, are to be aware of the charter, and Eep is not singled out
here, these standards apply to all who we give the priviledge of using these
groups.

But, myself, as AW Technical Support - have wiped my hands of this group,
and will not be utilising them again for information or advice - support may
be found at support at activeworlds.com

For those of you that know me, you know that what occured here occured in
good faith, or good heart, and good intent. Unfortunatly, it has soured me
of doing anything of this nature again - I have tried for years, since
coming to AW in 1996, to try and help the community. I have been a GK, a PK,
an outspoken advocate against harsh tactics in many different forms. I
continue to now be outspoken against harsh PK tactics, abuses of individuals
in the worlds (do you know how many people I help when they have been
harrassed?) and doing all manner of things to assist this community - most
of which is done in my *own* time, of my own violition, of my own *want* to
give back everything that I have got from this place. When I applied to work
here at AW, I am sure that one of the reasons I was chosen for the job was
due to the fact that I *was* outspoken on these issues, and would help to
bring some new ideas on how to relate tot he community. Having been a GK,
and a PK, and not being able to help in the manner I really wanted, seeing
the job was a godsend. In the year previously, I had logged into AW about
ten times total - I kept coming back, instead of giving up on it - the job
was a godsend and an opportunity to give back to the community.

I do not need to be judged, I do not need to be insulted, when I have merely
wished to help, assist and give new ideas and initiative to the community.
And especially, I do not need to be ground into the dirt by one individual
who has a severe lack of social adequacy.

I do not think that you need to wonder why now I have no wish to be a part
of these groups.

As stated - Eep is welcome to remain. Any derogatory posts from him or any
others will be deleted, continuous insults and derogatory remarks from any
user, including Eep, will result in the user's priviledges in these
newsgroup being revoked.

Enjoy your newsgroups.



Fletcher Andersen
AW Tech Support.

Feb 9, 2001, 5:14am

Arg, just when I thought community relations were looking good on the
horizon...guess not =\

Feb 9, 2001, 5:14am

Well, thank you so very much. Not only have you been one of the causes of this so-called community being so completely divided, you
refuse to take any responsibility for the results. In the future, I expect this will be used as a reason not to even ask what the
users want for the simple reason that we all had different opinions on an issue. If this was some sort of test, it is sickening to
think that the result may be even further separation from the management of Activeworlds.com. Yes, Mr. Anderson, asking us to throw
out one of our own and then washing your hands of it when there was no clear "winner" is an excellent test of how "united" a
community is! What do you mean by "there will be moderation of offensive posts"? Will we go back to the system where all of our
messages are proxied?


If Activeworlds.com management wants to give us some sort of "test case" to see how well voting works, choose something other than
banning Eep. You will never get a clear result from that, and only trouble will follow. Why not ask us what we want done in the
browser? Why not let us vote on major organizations like the Peacekeepers? This "democratic process" is too little, too late. If you
want to make up for it, you'll have to do so VERY quickly, and with a genuine quality.


"Its up to you people to fix it"? We were doing so before you came along and gave us the "privilege" of being able to decide on
whether we wanted to evict our "neighbor".


I'm not quite sure what this is going to cause me to do, but do realize that there will be repercussions.

-Agent1

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 5:17am

Oh gimme a break, you actually thinks we're all divided now because our
thoughts towards eep aren't the same? And, as easy as it is to say that
facter has done damage, it'll probably be yesterday's news in a week, at
most =\

Feb 9, 2001, 7:39am

Personally, I am sick of individuals in AW harrassing and abusing other
users for no reason. I think that if other users complain about another user
being abusive they should be banned immediately.
Some of you know that recently I started a petition to have another user
banned. I do NOT in any way regret taking that action. I want to make ONE
thing clear tho. I did NOT do this petition for me, I did it for ALL of us
but mostly for those who have been repetitively victimized by this
individual. We HAVE reported him to the PK's, we HAVE put him in mute and
so on, but he bounces to get himself out of mute and continues his abuse. He
also changes his name and he starts randomly gramming other users with his
abuse. In my opinion, this individual SHOULD have been banned a LOOOOONG
time ago. I did NOT do the petiion to cause trouble, to be mean or cruel, I
did to because someone HAD to do something and I would do it again in a
heartbeat to this individual BUT only as a last resort like this time. But
like Facter here, I too am being harrassed because of this petition. people
are judging ME and harrassing ME without getting the facts. I'm NOT the bad
person here. I'm a good guy. All I am trying to do here is make a difference
in AW. I like many of you and many more want to see the abuse STOP.
So? Am I wrong because I want abuse stopped? Am I wrong for wanting everyone
to be able to come to AW and not have to worry about being victimized over
and over? Those of us that this person abused didn't do anything to him and
some of you want us to excuse his behavior and it's wrong. if someone were
abusing YOU or your kids or family, you would stand up for them in a second.
Well MANY people here in AW are like family to me, even those I don't know
and if it takes ONE person to stand up to someone being abusive and it makes
a difference, then so be it.
I come to AW to relax, have fun and be with my friends, NOT to come in and
be abused. It needs to STOP!
Thanks goodness AW did finally take care of the matter but unfortunately it
is temporary and if this individual does it again, I will start the petition
all over again BUT as a last resort. I'm not a troublemaker here in AW. All
I want to do is make a difference and get rid of those who are
troublemakers. Some people are even afraid to post on these boards because
of abuse and that's not right either. *sigh*
Thank you.

~Myssie~

P.S.
i am sure some of you will have something negative to say about my post
here, but before you do, think about what I said and put yourself in the
shoes of those who are being abused. Think of how you would feel or if it
was a family member or your child.

Feb 9, 2001, 8:10am

Let me just say that in this post I am stateing MY OPINION on what has taken
place.

I think you were doing what you thought the community wanted. The problem
is, you never asked the community if they wanted to take a vote, you just
assumed we wanted to take a vote. If you had asked the community what they
thought a good solution would be, you probably would have gotten a few
dozzon replys to choose from. Perhaps a vote would have been one of the
solutions that could have been descussed. But you never gave us a chance;
instead, you popped a suprize vote session on us. And now you are suprized
with the results. And because the results aren't the wonderful self
fullfulling results you had imagined they would be, you are desgusted with
us.

Our community isn't as devided over this as a lot of people are saying it
is. Infact our community seems to have pulled togeather over this whole
thing, to end it. We weren't pulling togeather to get rid of you or eep.

Your post reminds me of a child crying because he didn't get his way. The
vote idea didn't turn out the way you had imagined it would, so you are
washing your hands of us. Instead of washing your hands of us, why not try
asking questions. Ask what we think may help in the news groups? What may
help in AW? Ask what we think the problem is and for suggestions that may
solve the problems.

In your post you said:

> These are quoted insults he has used, mostly against me in the past day or
> two - "power hungry", "shoving it off to the community", "ties too hard",
> "power tripping", "low self esteem","You're such a fucking twit, "YOU,
idiot
> twitfuck moron pissant, have no grip on logic","Now evolve ","hypocrit,
> (spelling Eep, again),"pathetic","Sure, one word: bullshit. "fucking with
> the newsgroups","bullshit statements","bullshit artist","fucking
> clone.","Because you have no life?","...a trip to a shrink might help.",".
> Better lay off them drugs","superchamp wonder twinkie-zippy.
> ","Facter is weak since he can't handle the truth.","fucking full of
> yourself","Only after continually insulting him" (he admits to continually
> insulting people for his own pleasure),".

Well welcome to the AW newsgroups !!! :) You are not alone.
This is the way eep talks to every one. No one likes it, but we have been
made to put up with it. Why?
Because, the AW management has set rules for the news groups but doesn't
enforce them. Please don't feel like this kind of treatment from eep is only
directed at you.

The way I see it, you tryed your vote, it didn't work and your feelings were
hurt. And now, you are going to take your ball and bat and go home. Sorry,
no one was warrened before hand there was going to be a vote. How exactally
did you expect us to react when you just sprang it on us like that. I
beleive your intentions were good, just a bit missplaced.

So, now you are going to tuck your tail between your legs and run?????
Come back, talk to the people, not at them. And learn more about the
community. I know you have been around a long time. But, I don't get the
feeling you actually know the people you are dealing with.

I got the feeling that you saw a stay vote for eep as a vote against you
personally. If you are to vote at all you must keep your personal feelings
out of it. A vote may have worked if handled in a different way. But you
went about it as a personal thing. eep attacked you, so you attacked him
with a public vote. That was doomed to fail from the start.

You say the management at AWCI was behind you on this. I definatelly get the
feeling they didn't know the whole situation when they gave you the go
ahead. I also got the feeling they didn't know exactally what it was they
gave you the go ahead to do.

I for one am willing to give you another chance at helping the community in
the news groups. But, only if you are willing to WORK WITH the community.
And not come in like the BIG BOSS.

I do see how you would have some confussion over all this. I know a lot of
people would like to see eep go, I said it myself. And a lot of people want
him to stay. And you can't figure out where you went wrong in the vote. You
see our community split because we can't even do a vote to decide. Well, our
community was not split. Our community actually came togeather to see to it
that an injustice wasn't done. We saw that this vote was wrong. We as a
community did what we had to do to stop it from takeing place. That is what
a community is.

If you want to leave then that is up to you. But I think it would be better
if you stayed and tryed to be part of the community and not just part of
management that is here to oversee.

Sorry my post is so long, and some things are out of order in the structure,
but it's late and my mind is wandering and I wanted to try to get my
thoughts in here before I went to bed and forgot most of them.

Hope my opinions aren't to far off base :)

Imagine










[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 8:42am

This is the first time in two years, possibly longer, that I've ventured into
the AW newsgroups. I only did so tonight at the request of a friend who thought
I'd find this issue of voting of interest. She was right. Interesting.

Facter, I think you don't give yourself enough credit. You asked for a vote
and, from the looks of it, people voted. This made your endeavor a success.
Don't let your disappointment in the vote's outcome override the sense of
accomplishment to which you're entitled. Albeit hasty and, IMO, presumptuous,
you allowed those who post to this ng an opportunity to voice their opinions,
opinions which you certainly must have known would be diverse. It was
refreshing to me to return here to see that the general consensus of my fellow
AW'ers is one of tolerance. Even some people who may have been expected,
justifiably, to oust eep from the ng refrained from casting votes in favor of
his censorship. After all, that's what banning an individual from a public
forum is - censorship. I believe those who abstained from voting did so because
they knew to call for a fellow citizen's banishment would have set a terribly
dangerous precedent. eep's fate here would have been the first to be determined
by your so called "democratic" but very cloistered process but then, who would
have been next? And next?

You say this "situation" has created a mess. Would you care to explain what
damage has been done? You called for a vote, your call was honored even by
those who stated their refusal to participate. How could this possibly
"disgust" you? As a group, I think those who voiced an opinion did so
decorously. I, for one, am proud to know these are my fellow citizens and, were
they my customers, I'd rest easier knowing I do business with people who are
cautiously judicious.

You took a risk, Fac, one which actually paid off even if your knees got skinned
by the outcome. If your heart is truly behind this community as you've stated
many times over, you'll keep taking risks on behalf of our community, bigger
risks where success and failure will be greater than this call to settle a
paltry dispute over a person's choice of words. After all, I remember when you
used to raise hell in no uncertain terms and in language much stronger than what
you've quoted below. I also remember a time when you crusaded very ardently on
behalf of freedom of speech and expression. This is where I'd like to believe
your heart really is and, if you still stand for what you once believed in, you
won't let other people or circumstances dissuade your worthiest efforts.

Sidris


[View Quote] > Eep could be suspended from this group, for a very simple reason - he broke
> the newsgroup charter, he abuses his priviledge and he is an insulting,
> faececious individual. I nor the company needed to even consult any of you -
> but, I had respect for all of you.
>
> Something had to be shown to Eep, so that he would realise the impact that
> his insulting nature has had on this community - did you all want me to
> stand back and go "yes eep, no eep, three bags full eep" ? Looking at it
> now, just banning him would of been the best solution out of anything.
>
> But it seems that the hope, that we could place a simple decision in the
> hands of our users, has turned into something that I myself am disgusted in.
> You all see now, why AWCI has really had user votes - and why when things
> have been done, they are done in an administration manner - look at the mess
> this whole situation has created - and you guys out there, all wonder why
> the management at AWCI keeps a distance from these newsgroups.
>
> Well, now you all know dont you ?
>
> Now perhaps you realise exactly how divided, how bickering and how very
> small our community really is. Its up to you people to fix it. I believed
> that by giving you guys something that you *Always* asked for - democratic
> processes, that this would help. By being completely open about the matter,
> I allowed something totally different to be done - I approached the
> situation with honesty and with the genuine intent to try and help a
> situation which in my opinion was jsut going way too far.
>
> I gave my opinions, I tried to engage the community in a rational decision.
> I wished merely to assist you all, without being the brunt of abuse,
> derogatory remarks and slander from a certain individual.
>
> Please let me show you, first, before I go any further, the kind of person
> that some of you are defending so much.
>
> These are quoted insults he has used, mostly against me in the past day or
> two - "power hungry", "shoving it off to the community", "ties too hard",
> "power tripping", "low self esteem","You're such a fucking twit, "YOU, idiot
> twitfuck moron pissant, have no grip on logic","Now evolve ","hypocrit,
> (spelling Eep, again),"pathetic","Sure, one word: bullshit. "fucking with
> the newsgroups","bullshit statements","bullshit artist","fucking
> clone.","Because you have no life?","...a trip to a shrink might help.",".
> Better lay off them drugs","superchamp wonder twinkie-zippy.
> ","Facter is weak since he can't handle the truth.","fucking full of
> yourself","Only after continually insulting him" (he admits to continually
> insulting people for his own pleasure),".
>
> Some of you are DEFENDING this kind of person ? *shakes his head* - then
> this community, had already gone to hell in a handbasket well before I tried
> to help matters. How anyone can defend someone for that kind of behaviour is
> beyond me. as an intelligent, caring and decent person I can find *no* way
> in myself to see how any could possibly defend such.
>
> Rick, JP and indeed the whole office is aware of this situation. Rick and JP
> were spoken to before I even instigated the vote, or contemplated any
> "Bannings". It was a general agreement, to try and involve the community in
> some decision making, and to try and instill some kind of trust in allowing
> a democratic process to be allowed on matters of discipline in this
> newsgroup. I had the full support of my superiors, and indeed thought that
> by trying to give the community something like this, a decision like this,
> that it may go some way towards helping the rift that seems to be between
> portions of the community and management.
>
> It was tried, and it the process has failed.
>
> From now, there will be no more technical support from myself in these
> newsgroups. All support will now be done via email and no correspondance
> between myself will be entered into in these newsgroups. Eep is welcome to
> remain, but there will be moderation on posts if they are found to be of a
> derogatory, insulting or offensive nature. If he _pushes_ the matter, and
> merely continues to heap into this group posts of an insulting nature to
> others including myself, then he will be banned, with no consultation or
> appeal entered into.
>
> On a personal note, I must say that my first foray into trying to help the
> AW community in my capacity as a employee of AWCI, it has left a very bad
> taste in my mouth. Instead of seeing potential, instead of seeing that I
> could indeed help, instead of being polite, and courteous and respectful
> towards me, Eep has attacked for no , insulted, provoked, defamed and made
> mockery in his words of my professional manner.
>
> On the matter of the newsgroup downtime, the downage was fully explained
> explained on the outset (I even posted about it on the network status page,
> and they were down for four hours, and the only persont hat noticed was you,
> Eep) - do NOT twist that into something it is not Eep - my explaination was
> a fully good one, and merely lacked down to the bare level details such as
> "defraging harddrive, scandisk and a check of files - i mean, geez - "I took
> down the server for maintenance" covers ALL of those things, which are some
> of the things that were done on that morning.
>
> I will no longer be posting to these newsgroups. There will be no more
> "votes" in these newsgroups, and as I stated before, there will be
> moderation of offensive posts, and Eep will especially be looked at.
> Obviously, there is a large portion of people here who, for some reason,
> wish he remains (they may not even be a majority) but for whatever reason,
> he may do so - on conditions, and if those conditions are not met, thent he
> matter will be dealt with in accordance to charter guidelines. All users of
> this newsgroup, are to be aware of the charter, and Eep is not singled out
> here, these standards apply to all who we give the priviledge of using these
> groups.
>
> But, myself, as AW Technical Support - have wiped my hands of this group,
> and will not be utilising them again for information or advice - support may
> be found at support at activeworlds.com
>
> For those of you that know me, you know that what occured here occured in
> good faith, or good heart, and good intent. Unfortunatly, it has soured me
> of doing anything of this nature again - I have tried for years, since
> coming to AW in 1996, to try and help the community. I have been a GK, a PK,
> an outspoken advocate against harsh tactics in many different forms. I
> continue to now be outspoken against harsh PK tactics, abuses of individuals
> in the worlds (do you know how many people I help when they have been
> harrassed?) and doing all manner of things to assist this community - most
> of which is done in my *own* time, of my own violition, of my own *want* to
> give back everything that I have got from this place. When I applied to work
> here at AW, I am sure that one of the reasons I was chosen for the job was
> due to the fact that I *was* outspoken on these issues, and would help to
> bring some new ideas on how to relate tot he community. Having been a GK,
> and a PK, and not being able to help in the manner I really wanted, seeing
> the job was a godsend. In the year previously, I had logged into AW about
> ten times total - I kept coming back, instead of giving up on it - the job
> was a godsend and an opportunity to give back to the community.
>
> I do not need to be judged, I do not need to be insulted, when I have merely
> wished to help, assist and give new ideas and initiative to the community.
> And especially, I do not need to be ground into the dirt by one individual
> who has a severe lack of social adequacy.
>
> I do not think that you need to wonder why now I have no wish to be a part
> of these groups.
>
> As stated - Eep is welcome to remain. Any derogatory posts from him or any
> others will be deleted, continuous insults and derogatory remarks from any
> user, including Eep, will result in the user's priviledges in these
> newsgroup being revoked.
>
> Enjoy your newsgroups.
>
> Fletcher Andersen
> AW Tech Support.

Feb 9, 2001, 9:32am

[View Quote] You respect us - so you force us to make a choice which splits the
community, and force us into an insane position where everything will be our
mistake anyway. Very nice of you.

> Something had to be shown to Eep, so that he would realise the impact
that
> his insulting nature has had on this community - did you all want me to
> stand back and go "yes eep, no eep, three bags full eep" ? Looking at it
> now, just banning him would of been the best solution out of anything.

It would have been stupid too.

> But it seems that the hope, that we could place a simple decision in the
> hands of our users,

Read: But it seems that the hope, that we could get the users to deceide to
kick eep out,

This whole voting thing is fishy. Do you really think it would be a simple
decision with **OPEN** votes? YOU single handedly started the voting, and
then biassed us and abused your AWCI position to get us to kick eep out.
This whole thing is just a set up. Eep has been ranting away for years now,
yet now he hits you, you suddenly start a voting et all. This is PERSONAL,
facter. Apparently you are NOT able to distinguish between you as an AWCI
employee and you as yourself. You messed up. Big time. Everything got out of
control. And from now on, you will always be one of the bad guys -
unfortunately - and it will be very hard to get rid of that.

> has turned into something that I myself am disgusted in.

Largely your own mistake. As you have read, many people are disgusted of the
way this took place.

> You all see now, why AWCI has really had user votes - and why when things
> have been done, they are done in an administration manner - look at the
mess
> this whole situation has created

CLOSED VOTE. Good solution. Why an open vote in the first place?

> - and you guys out there, all wonder why
> the management at AWCI keeps a distance from these newsgroups.

Because they are unable to handle them? If you have a high position, you
will get a lot of attention. Some of that will be negative. You will need to
have a thick skin. You started right, but then weren't able to handle the
pressure. You should have just ignored Eep, and not threaten to kick him.

> Well, now you all know dont you ?
>
> Now perhaps you realise exactly how divided, how bickering and how very
> small our community really is.

It's a controversial issue. And you forced it into our faces. And you still
wonder why all this happened?

> Its up to you people to fix it.

You mess it up - now we have to fix it.

> I believed
> that by giving you guys something that you *Always* asked for - democratic
> processes, that this would help.

This was not democratic! It stinks!

> By being completely open about the matter,
> I allowed something totally different to be done - I approached the
> situation with honesty and with the genuine intent to try and help a
> situation which in my opinion was jsut going way too far.

And now it went even further. All your attempts to solve it only catalyzed
it.

> I gave my opinions, I tried to engage the community in a rational
decision.

But you stronlgy influenced it. In a way that can't be called democratic.

> I wished merely to assist you all, without being the brunt of abuse,
> derogatory remarks and slander from a certain individual.
>
> Please let me show you, first, before I go any further, the kind of person
> that some of you are defending so much.
>
> These are quoted insults he has used, mostly against me in the past day or
> two - "power hungry", "shoving it off to the community", "ties too hard",
> "power tripping", "low self esteem","You're such a fucking twit, "YOU,
idiot
> twitfuck moron pissant, have no grip on logic","Now evolve ","hypocrit,
> (spelling Eep, again),"pathetic","Sure, one word: bullshit. "fucking with
> the newsgroups","bullshit statements","bullshit artist","fucking
> clone.","Because you have no life?","...a trip to a shrink might help.",".
> Better lay off them drugs","superchamp wonder twinkie-zippy.
> ","Facter is weak since he can't handle the truth.","fucking full of
> yourself","Only after continually insulting him" (he admits to continually
> insulting people for his own pleasure),".

I'm in doubt... either you really started this with the best intents, or you
have made a set up to trap eep and kick him out intentionally. I prefer the
first view. However, I can fully imagine how someone could think about 3/4th
of the statements above about you.

> Some of you are DEFENDING this kind of person ?

Yes, we do. And you know why? Read the posts, it's all in there. You only
showed the bad side of eep. Some of us also see a good side. You showed a
very bad side of yourself.

> *shakes his head* - then
> this community, had already gone to hell in a handbasket well before I
> tried to help matters. How anyone can defend someone for that kind of
behaviour is
> beyond me. as an intelligent, caring and decent person I can find *no* way
> in myself to see how any could possibly defend such.
>
> Rick, JP and indeed the whole office is aware of this situation. Rick and
JP
> were spoken to before I even instigated the vote, or contemplated any
> "Bannings". It was a general agreement, to try and involve the community
in
> some decision making, and to try and instill some kind of trust in
allowing
> a democratic process to be allowed on matters of discipline in this
> newsgroup.

Democratic. Bah. You got into trouble with Eep, then tried to exercise your
powers by forcing us to kick him out.

> I had the full support of my superiors,

Sure, they would like to kick Eep out. I can understand that.

> and indeed thought that
> by trying to give the community something like this, a decision like this,
> that it may go some way towards helping the rift that seems to be between
> portions of the community and management.

Don't you see it?

> It was tried, and it the process has failed.

The process was flawed, and doomed to fail.

> From now, there will be no more technical support from myself in these
> newsgroups. All support will now be done via email and no correspondance
> between myself will be entered into in these newsgroups.

If that's how you think to "solve" this... fine... this is a sad day for AW.

> Eep is welcome to
> remain, but there will be moderation on posts if they are found to be of a
> derogatory, insulting or offensive nature.

"moderation". Yuk. So if I say I think AWCI stinks, my post will be deleted?
After all, this can be seen as insulting.

> If he _pushes_ the matter, and
> merely continues to heap into this group posts of an insulting nature to
> others including myself, then he will be banned, with no consultation or
> appeal entered into.

Take gun. Aim. Shoot in foot.

> On a personal note, I must say that my first foray into trying to help the
> AW community in my capacity as a employee of AWCI, it has left a very bad
> taste in my mouth. Instead of seeing potential, instead of seeing that I
> could indeed help, instead of being polite, and courteous and respectful
> towards me, Eep has attacked for no , insulted, provoked, defamed and made
> mockery in his words of my professional manner.

Eep does that to everyone he doesn't agree with. But you are the first one
to push it this far.

> On the matter of the newsgroup downtime, the downage was fully explained
> explained on the outset (I even posted about it on the network status
page,
> and they were down for four hours, and the only persont hat noticed was
you,
> Eep) - do NOT twist that into something it is not Eep - my explaination
was
> a fully good one, and merely lacked down to the bare level details such as

> "defraging harddrive, scandisk and a check of files - i mean, geez - "I
took
> down the server for maintenance" covers ALL of those things, which are
some
> of the things that were done on that morning.

Maintenance is quite vague. I can understand that people would want a more
specific explanation. Why not just tell that you defragged, ran scandisk and
checked all files?

> I will no longer be posting to these newsgroups. There will be no more
> "votes" in these newsgroups, and as I stated before, there will be
> moderation of offensive posts, and Eep will especially be looked at.

argh... not *again*. I'm glad someone else pointed out the other discussion
groups.

> Obviously, there is a large portion of people here who, for some reason,
> wish he remains (they may not even be a majority) but for whatever reason,
> he may do so - on conditions, and if those conditions are not met, thent
he
> matter will be dealt with in accordance to charter guidelines. All users
of
> this newsgroup, are to be aware of the charter, and Eep is not singled out
> here, these standards apply to all who we give the priviledge of using
these
> groups.
>
> But, myself, as AW Technical Support - have wiped my hands of this group,
> and will not be utilising them again for information or advice - support
may
> be found at support at activeworlds.com
>
> For those of you that know me, you know that what occured here occured in
> good faith, or good heart, and good intent. Unfortunatly, it has soured me
> of doing anything of this nature again - I have tried for years, since
> coming to AW in 1996, to try and help the community. I have been a GK, a
PK,
> an outspoken advocate against harsh tactics in many different forms. I
> continue to now be outspoken against harsh PK tactics, abuses of
individuals
> in the worlds (do you know how many people I help when they have been
> harrassed?) and doing all manner of things to assist this community - most
> of which is done in my *own* time, of my own violition, of my own *want*
to
> give back everything that I have got from this place. When I applied to
work
> here at AW, I am sure that one of the reasons I was chosen for the job was
> due to the fact that I *was* outspoken on these issues, and would help to
> bring some new ideas on how to relate tot he community. Having been a GK,
> and a PK, and not being able to help in the manner I really wanted, seeing
> the job was a godsend. In the year previously, I had logged into AW about
> ten times total - I kept coming back, instead of giving up on it - the job
> was a godsend and an opportunity to give back to the community.

You can be great, you can be fine, you can be helping everyone in the world,
but you still can fuck up. And you did on this case. I believe you when you
say you did this to help. But that doesn't clear you from the blame.

> I do not need to be judged, I do not need to be insulted, when I have
merely
> wished to help, assist and give new ideas and initiative to the community.

Don't we all? Most of us at least. I know it is hard when you go somewhere
to help, and people turn against you because of something you do. But don't
turn away in anger. See it as a sign that you were helping in a wrong way.
You only truly help people when they appreciate it.

> And especially, I do not need to be ground into the dirt by one individual
> who has a severe lack of social adequacy.

But should you punish the whole community for it? Please, no!

> I do not think that you need to wonder why now I have no wish to be a part
> of these groups.

See about 11 lines above.

> As stated - Eep is welcome to remain. Any derogatory posts from him or any
> others will be deleted, continuous insults and derogatory remarks from any
> user, including Eep, will result in the user's priviledges in these
> newsgroup being revoked.

You know what? I once was a happy AW user. Then came incidents like the
autoeject bot at AWgate. It opened up my eyes about AWCI. I deceided to stop
my cit ship and stay as a tourist, because I don't want to financially
support such a company. Then, on a bad day, these newsgroups became citizen
only. That day I deleted everything, because I was fed up with it. Over a
year later, my curiosity won, and I deceided to take a look. AW seemed to be
a nice place again, there was no more autoejecting at AWgate, and I ended up
in a christmas present contest in Storage. I won a cit ship there (thanks
Daphne), and went back to these ngs. Although I still dislike AWCI, their
bad influence seemed to be stopped, the ngs were a nice place again, and
everything seemed fine.

You just destroyed the last bit of faith I had in AWCI. These things look
really incompetent.

> Enjoy your newsgroups.

No, facter, the newsgroups are AW's. Take your responsibility. Make AWCI
care.

rolu

Feb 9, 2001, 10:59am

> No, facter, the newsgroups are AW's. Take your responsibility. Make AWCI
> care.


I will not speak for the company here - but, on a personal level, I took my
time out to post in here - I was abused, and harrassed - I did what I
thought was right, and it turns out that it wasnt.

If I screwed up, I apologise, but everyone tries their best.

I may look like an "enemy" to everyone now, frankly, that is fine. I know in
*my* heart, that I did my best to try and fix a situation.

Frankly, if anyone is going to be disappointed, be disappointed in my
person, not the company - I am only human, and even humans are often doomed
to fail when trying to help.

Such as it is.

F.

Feb 9, 2001, 11:13am

Perhaps Agent, you should look at the real reason why this whole mess
started in the first place, instead of heaping that rhetorical onto me. Why
not look at the comments aginst Eep, the ones where people say they are
afraid to post in here, the ones where people are sick and tired of his bs ?

As again I will state, posting in here was something I wanted to do to help
out - it was not an order, nor was I told to do it. I did it because I felt
like it would help things - your attitude towards me, and what I tried to do
in here, only re-inforces the fact that one person can only try, and if they
are not appreciated for their efforts, then it is time to stop.

Again, beyond this thread, I will not be posting in here any more - perhaps
someone else will step up to try another community effort in here, but for
now, I am going to stay within my job criteria - and that does not include
offering support in these newsgroups. My community efforts will go towards
the new website, and helping out citizens in-world if needs be.

And, I never said I was not assuming responsibility, to any of you - I am
responsible for this, so therefore I am dealing with it. Do you think I am
going to enjoy stopping posting ina newsgroup I have posted to for five
years? since well before amny of you even joined AW. No, I am responsible,
but the blame does not lay souly at my feet - Eep is jsut as much to blame
for this whole mess as I am. If you were truely going to be fair about this
situation, you would all also acknowledge that.

> I'm not quite sure what this is going to cause me to do, but do realize
that there will be repercussions.

I think perhaps, you should speak to me on this matter personally. Frankly,
I do not like veiled threats against my person in a public newsgroup.

You, have lost my respect in making that threat - but I guess seeing as I
have none now for a vast majority of users in this NG, it makes us square.

Good day.

Facter.

Feb 9, 2001, 11:37am

[View Quote] I've seen some posts of people who were tired and sick of this voting and
AWCI in general too.

> As again I will state, posting in here was something I wanted to do to
help
> out - it was not an order, nor was I told to do it. I did it because I
felt
> like it would help things - your attitude towards me, and what I tried to
do
> in here, only re-inforces the fact that one person can only try, and if
they
> are not appreciated for their efforts, then it is time to stop.
>
> Again, beyond this thread, I will not be posting in here any more -
perhaps
> someone else will step up to try another community effort in here, but for
> now, I am going to stay within my job criteria - and that does not include
> offering support in these newsgroups. My community efforts will go towards
> the new website, and helping out citizens in-world if needs be.

Too bad. You could have done great here. If only you had filtered Eep.

> And, I never said I was not assuming responsibility, to any of you - I am
> responsible for this, so therefore I am dealing with it. Do you think I am
> going to enjoy stopping posting ina newsgroup I have posted to for five
> years? since well before amny of you even joined AW. No, I am responsible,
> but the blame does not lay souly at my feet - Eep is jsut as much to blame
> for this whole mess as I am. If you were truely going to be fair about
this
> situation, you would all also acknowledge that.

Eep is to blame for being rude and offensive. But most of the last ~200
posts come from the actions you took, actions the community didn't agree
with. As a support guy, you surely must have met angry customers before, so
you should know how to deal with them. Sure, eep might have planted the
seeds for this mess - but you grew it, where you could have starved it.

rolu

Feb 9, 2001, 11:41am

Notice how all the people who have been here for like about 3-5 years are
just disgusted by Eeps immaturity and attitude, and people who have been on
for a year or two back him up? Interesting thought, but im not saying hes
getting any better, I know hes still harrassing and going around with his
pointless language, you know one thing, everyone may think they have freedom
of speech, but they don't. The US government even tells where they limit
your freedom of speech, France, when said giving freedom of speech limited
it near the reign of Napolean after the rebellion, no one has ever had
freedom of speech, only a part of it. For example obscene language does not
fall under freedom of speech, lies more under abuse.

image
image2 at uswest.net
www.imagebot.net

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 11:43am

> Eep is to blame for being rude and offensive. But most of the last ~200
> posts come from the actions you took, actions the community didn't agree
> with. As a support guy, you surely must have met angry customers before,
so
> you should know how to deal with them. Sure, eep might have planted the
> seeds for this mess - but you grew it, where you could have starved it.


Indeed -as support, I do know how to deal with them - as a community aide
and visonary, I guess I do not. I admit that.

Which is why, I will be sticking to support now.

F.

Feb 9, 2001, 11:57am

You stated in a reply to my post that this was NOT a matter of who stays or
who goes.

The community has voted to keep Eep.

You are leaving.

WHAT HAPPEENED TO THAT STATEMENT FACTER?

You took a leap off a cliff facter, and now you're blaming us that you died
from the fall.

-Myrth

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:06pm

[View Quote]
The community has voted nothing - the vote was closed off by me before it
was even completed.

I hav better things to do, in my *personal* time, than be abused by people
like Eep - this is my personal choice, if you guys want to keep him, fine,
but speaking for myself personally, I have no wish whatsoever to put up with
that kind of ridiculous, insulting manners.

I may post in here once in a while, if there is something of genuine
importance to convey - but I will no longer take part in discussions.

I am not blaming anyone for any of this, I just have a more things in my
life to do than you realise, and trying to do something good, only to have
it shoved in my face continuously by him, is not my idea of fun.

I am sorry, but that is how it has turned out, and even if none of you like
it, then you must respect my personal choices.

Facter.



>
> -Myrth
>
[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:35pm

[View Quote] But why not just do support here too, and ignore anything non-related?
Afaik, you only seem to have a problem with Eep. So why not just filter him
out? Stay here, that would be great. Just clearly state whether you post as
Facter or as AWCI support guy. Make two different accounts, even, if you
need. The flames and rants are for the support guy, not for Facter. Never
have been, but they got mixed up. This community needs a link with AWCI, and
this would fit you. Just don't get yourself in the way. You can still be
what you wanted to be. Give it a thought.

rolu

Feb 9, 2001, 12:56pm

Sorry if you took that to mean I was going to "do something" to you or AWCI personally. What I meant to say is that I may still make choices based on this.

I have lost your respect? *sigh*


-Agent1


[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 1:00pm

yeah... I like you and think you have been a great help overall.. don't let
this negativity get to you-these are the type of people who need a
scapegoat, and what better for a person in higher community position then
themselves to blame the troubles on... it's the american way...

--
J B E L L
http://platinum.awjbell.com
G O I N G P L A T I N U M
[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 1:13pm

> But why not just do support here too, and ignore anything non-related?
> Afaik, you only seem to have a problem with Eep. So why not just filter
him
> out? Stay here, that would be great. Just clearly state whether you post
as
> Facter or as AWCI support guy. Make two different accounts, even, if you
> need. The flames and rants are for the support guy, not for Facter. Never
> have been, but they got mixed up. This community needs a link with AWCI,
and
> this would fit you. Just don't get yourself in the way. You can still be
> what you wanted to be. Give it a thought.


Rolu - very good solution, I will have a good think about the two accounts
idea, that, in itself, is probably one of the better things ideas I have
seen posted.

It does look, as though my actions have had some kind of positive outcome -
I was afraid that too many people were focusing on the negative aspects of
what I was trying to do.

Perhaps this was incorrect.

F.

Feb 9, 2001, 1:30pm

[View Quote] Ahh, a misunderstanding perhaps - text is not always the best way for
utilising emotive responses - as I have often discovered in my dealing with
certain partners in my life *g*

Misunderstandings are easily rectified ..... ...beer often does wonders in
that realm !

Mmm...beer...you can tell its Friday cant you.

=)

F.

>
>
> -Agent1
>
>
[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 1:31pm

Thanks for posting Sid - I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say your
opinions are always missed in here =)

And I agree with most of them =P

F.

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 1:52pm

Facter, have you ever tried to use the filter function on your newsgroup
browser? This would certainly solve *many* of the problems you complain
about.

~Jeff Raven


[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 1:55pm

As I see you still did not get the whole picture :) Filtering works only AFTER the first insult. Till then you don't know who do you want to filter. Not to mention that _sometimes_ Eep has actually something to say which worth to read.
Andras


[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 2:16pm

Hi, this is a friendly service announcement.

"which worth to read" = "which is worth reading" or simply "worth reading"

and "actually" should be before "has"

We now return you to your regularly scheduled posting...

[View Quote] > Not to mention that _sometimes_ Eep has actually something to say which worth to read.

Feb 9, 2001, 2:59pm

Duly noted.

Andras
P.S.:That brings us back to the first phase isn't it?

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 3:32pm

This is a great idea, and I for one support it wholeheartedly :)

The Raven

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 4:01pm

Facter,
why dont you just shut you face, go back to building the
Looooooooooooooong over due web site, I hope its better than the current
pile of garbage. If you have any respect for the AW community (which its
obvious to anyone with half a brain cell you dont!) then if you are going to
ban him do so or shut up and tell us somthing of use like the new web site
is up and its of use to the community.

As I dont see why you post in here at all as I dont see a website NG.

Lord Vector!
[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 4:12pm

lol

rolu

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 4:14pm

0_o

Talk about "slightly overboard".

-Agent1


[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 4:18pm

Why don't you shut up yourself. I'm sure he's working on it. If you had
actually read and understanded all the posts in the last 24 hours, you would
see that he cares for the AW community - and just made a mistake. No need to
stir things up again. Now get lost with your half a brain cell.

[View Quote] He's not only for the website, you know.

No you don't.

But try to anyway.

rolu

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