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Feb 8, 2001, 4:15am

Too bad it missed...

[View Quote] > OUCH!!...LOL.. nice shot faber...
>
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 4:21am

You claim you want to "help" yet you STILL have not answered as to WHY the newsgroups were taken down. If you don't want to be labeled as an AWCI clone who gives people the runaround (i.e. bullshit), stop acting like it, Faber--it's that simple; it takes two to tango.

And if you want respect, give ME respect; talking to and about someone in the 3rd person is rude, too. Don't be such a hypocrit and perhaps you'll actually GET the respect you so desperately seem to need. Look into the mirror, "mate"...

[View Quote] > I hate censorship as much as anyone - I dont moderate these groups and I
> have no wish to. Yes, he does give some good points, but unfortunatly he is
> rude, impolite arrogant and unthoughtful in his manner here - there is
> absolutly no need for it at all. I have absolutly NO wish *whatsoever* to
> remove or filter him from the group, and the whole thing is in his hands
> *entirely*, please make no mistake there. I, unlike many, understand his
> value to this community and his insights into many of the problems here -
> and have agreed with him more times than not.
>
> BUT - I wont put up with personal attacks, they are un-necessary and very
> rude. And, if someone cant be polite and refraim from saying things like
> "you fu&*ed it up, you inept bs artist", then that is derogatory, and
> impolite - its about time there was so kind of civility around here, I dont
> think thats too much to ask from *anyone*.
>
> Eep, i'm sure your most capable of being polite in your attitude, instead of
> insulting, and as I said, if you treat others with the same respect you
> yourself demand, and there will be no problem whatsoever.
>
> He can start being polite in his manner towards others, or there can be a
> choice. I will stop posting in here, and he can continue - I just will not
> put up with rude individuals in my personal time no matter what their
> opinion is, and no matter how jaded they are - I have better things to do. I
> think Eep needs to realise that I do not set policy around here, and that
> the reason I post in here is to *help* you guys in the first place - geez,
> why is that so hard for him to grasp ? Is it such a strange notion that
> someone here actually wants to merely help out the community? Maybe to some,
> but I have been here long enough to know that a presence in here is needed
> sometimes. My skin is thick, but I am here on my own violition to help out,
> not be abused.
>
> I do *not* set policy people - I post in here to *inform* and *help* -
> nothing more.
>
> Disagree with me sure, debate with me - i'd love that, but dont swear at me
> or accuse me of just spouting bullshit in such a rude manner - I speak the
> facts as I know them, why I would fabricate things about circumstances here
> is *totally* beyond me.
>
> So what do you say Eep ? Not too hard to be polite is it ? Wouldnt you
> prefer someone from AWCI posting in here to them *not* posting in here -
> like it has been for the past year?
>
> Up to you mate =)
>
> oh - one more note, I would really prefer it if you did not swear at me or
> accuse me of spouting bullshit Eep, thanks.

Feb 8, 2001, 4:30am

[View Quote] >
> Exactly, I dont ask anyone to respect the company, but I do ask to be
> respected for my efforts here - you dont have to like me, but at least give
> me that.

Had you not given me such a vague "reason" (if you can even call it that considering there was NO explanation whatsoever) about why you took down the newsgroups I might've had more respect for you. But, no, you decided to play the AWCI card and brush me off and, well, you know the rest. I'm still waiting for that explanation, too...just think, you MIGHT be able to salvage some of that desperately-needed respect you want by simply telling me what I asked...it's THAT simple, Facter.

> doesn't seem like that...Roland
>
> What game ?? Posting here and helping people is a game ??
>
> *confused*

The runaround game, Facter--surely Rick and JP have given it to you already; they have everyone else... Don't know what the runaround is? Ask someone else.

> NOT deserve to be in charge of AW. They have CONTINUALLY proven over and
> over and, yes, over again that they do NOT know how to deal with their
> customers and the public/media relations, etc.
>
> Am I dealing wrong with the customers by doing something nobody has done for
> well over a year? By acknowledging that support in these newsgroups is
> needed, and of my own initiative posting in them ? Is this wrong mate ? Is
> helping out wrong ? If so, I do apologise. And who are you to say who should
> be in charge? You have *no* idea what goes on in this office - it is pure
> speculation, nor do you know the people themselves. Things are alot
> different here than you make them out to be, as I found out when I came to
> work here - and you know my stance on certain things before I came to work
> here, I do not pretend that I was not anti-COF int he past (actually, I sat
> ont he fence more than anything else) - and you *know* that I am a smart,
> rational person so my change of opinion must be based on something, correct
> ?

Yea, bias. You work for the company so why would you put them down?

> I could be working anywhere else in the world I want - but I choose to work
> here. I gave up a loving relationship, my family *and* my country to do so -
> why?

Because you have no life?

> Because I love helping people, and because I love AW. And that is all that
> motivates me to post in here, not for anything "sneaky". I hope that by
> being a little personal here, and making you understand how hard things
> have been for me in moving my entire life to give a little back to the
> community, that you will see that I am an honest, genuine person with no
> external motivation for being here.

Oh, you need external gratification then, eh? Makes sense...and falls in-line with your need for respect you keep spouting off about. Might want to think about why you need to help people so much in order to feel worthwhile...a trip to a shrink might help.

> history page >>(http://tnlc.com/eep/aw/history.html) ever since they went
> public. >They will NEVER live this down while I am still around until the
> AW, as it stands currently, and until things change I will >NEVER let up.
>
> Nothing to do with me, was before I worked here, even if there was anything
> "sneaky" going on - so, where are your attacks on me relevant here ? I'm not
> asking you to let up, I *am* asking for some personal *respect* for my
> efforts here.
>
> My mission is to help.

See above.

>
> And neither am I suggesting. Do you *really* want to know one of the real
> reasons I started posting in here Eep?
>
> Because you, along with others like you, had alot of good points.

Super; now pass those points onto the idiots in charge and perhaps AW will actually develop into something worthwhile.

> You dont realise that you have won a part of your battle, do you?

I didn't realize I was IN a battle.

Feb 8, 2001, 4:34am

:o <hide>

[View Quote] > You've gots to be kidding me. I am eep's official fan. I wanna get on that
> FANatic show or what ever on MTV and drive to eep's house in a limo.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 5:19am

Eep - I have no more to say to you, I shant be replying to any of your posts
in here from this point onwards - if I decide that you are warranted to even
remain in these groups for any longer amount of time - and, if I see that
any of your post are in any way offensive to me, or anyone else in here,
then action will be taken against you.

I am *very*, very offended by your derogatory remarks. You have personally
and publicly attacked myself with remarks that are rude, offensive,
derogatory and spiteful, and if you were *any* kind of decent person, you
would apologise immediately.

I help people because I enjoy doing it - why do you tihnk people become
police officers, or doctors, or nurses - because they have emotional
problems? They do it because some people are happy, helpful individuals who
have a lot of love and giving to provide - perhaps this whole idea is alien
to you Eep

You have *no* right to sit there and tell me to go and see a shrink - you
stepped over a line Eep. No, you jumped over a line. I gave you plenty of
opportunity to conduct yourself with respect and dignity - and this is what
you do and how you respond ? After this, your opinion's and "ideas" means
absolutley squat to me.

How dare you insinuate that kind of thing against me or anyone else, in any
way ?

You just have no idea where not to cross the line do you?

You are hereby notified that if you engage in any more derogatory,
offensive, or slanderous remarks within these newsgroups, that you will be
blocked and prevented from posting herein for the forseeable future.

Fletcher Andersen
AW Support.

..




[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 5:26am

To the group -

The posting was disabled because I was working on the server, and did not
want anything being posted until I could fix the problem I was working on.
It was down for approximately four hours or so, and it was a minor
disruption. The problem was fixed (which was a problem with our customised
newsgroup software).

There is no conspiracry, I just didnt see the need to explain things in such
down to down detail when there was no reason to - nobody else was concerned
about the issue except Eep, who emailed me right after I brought the groups
down.

And Eep, this is the first, and last, explaination for *anything* _you_
will ever recieve from me in this newsgroup.

F.

[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 10:37am

<yawn> Now you're being hypocritical considering you wrote in a reply to someone else in this thread that you had NO power in these newsgroups. You're funny, Facter. Better lay off them drugs, man... You say you don't want censorship yet you're willing to censor me right out of the newsgroups. More hypocracy; keep it up, superchamp wonder twinkie-zippy.

Now, there, there, don't cry over my little pet names for you; you're nothing special.

[View Quote] > Eep - I have no more to say to you, I shant be replying to any of your posts
> in here from this point onwards - if I decide that you are warranted to even
> remain in these groups for any longer amount of time - and, if I see that
> any of your post are in any way offensive to me, or anyone else in here,
> then action will be taken against you.
>
> I am *very*, very offended by your derogatory remarks. You have personally
> and publicly attacked myself with remarks that are rude, offensive,
> derogatory and spiteful, and if you were *any* kind of decent person, you
> would apologise immediately.
>
> I help people because I enjoy doing it - why do you tihnk people become
> police officers, or doctors, or nurses - because they have emotional
> problems? They do it because some people are happy, helpful individuals who
> have a lot of love and giving to provide - perhaps this whole idea is alien
> to you Eep
>
> You have *no* right to sit there and tell me to go and see a shrink - you
> stepped over a line Eep. No, you jumped over a line. I gave you plenty of
> opportunity to conduct yourself with respect and dignity - and this is what
> you do and how you respond ? After this, your opinion's and "ideas" means
> absolutley squat to me.
>
> How dare you insinuate that kind of thing against me or anyone else, in any
> way ?
>
> You just have no idea where not to cross the line do you?
>
> You are hereby notified that if you engage in any more derogatory,
> offensive, or slanderous remarks within these newsgroups, that you will be
> blocked and prevented from posting herein for the forseeable future.

Feb 8, 2001, 10:40am

Gee, sure took a good ass-whipping to get it out of you, Facter. Next time don't be such a putz, putz, and answer me when I initially ask you instead of giving me the runaround--you could have saved yourself a lot of self-induced aggravation. Don't cry beacuse of that either--I just don't know if I can take the guilt of knowing your fragile ego was shattered because of me. Oh...the horror. <blink>

[View Quote] > To the group -
>
> The posting was disabled because I was working on the server, and did not
> want anything being posted until I could fix the problem I was working on.
> It was down for approximately four hours or so, and it was a minor
> disruption. The problem was fixed (which was a problem with our customised
> newsgroup software).
>
> There is no conspiracry, I just didnt see the need to explain things in such
> down to down detail when there was no reason to - nobody else was concerned
> about the issue except Eep, who emailed me right after I brought the groups
> down.
>
> And Eep, this is the first, and last, explaination for *anything* _you_
> will ever recieve from me in this newsgroup.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 12:00pm

[View Quote] I never said I didnt have any power, I said I didnt want to - but, as you
obviously dont know how to apologise, or be a tolerable person in these
newsgroups, it is my unfortunate duty to inform you that you will no longer
have access to them. Access to these newsgroup is a priviledge provided by
AWCI, not a right.

You have not made yourself out to be respectful, you show no remorse for
your derogatory remarks, and indeed just continued to do so even after I
threw you so many bones it wasnt funny.

This is not an action I wish to take, but unfortunatly, unless a publically
posted apology to the rest of the group is forthcoming, then you are not
welcome to post within these newsgroups for the time being.

I have no hypocracy, the people that know me, and have known me in AW for
the past five years, know the kind of light hearted, caring and kind
individual I am - it is just a huge pity that in your sad, lonely heart
there is no way you can ever bring yourself to admit that your attitude is
wrong and ill mannered when all that is required is a little common courtesy
and respect.

You wonder why you were not put on the beta list?

I hate doing this, and I hate censorship, but unfortunatly, measures must
sometimes be taken no matter how much you pesonally dislike doing them - and
in this case, if this is the only way to show you that your manner, actions
and comments to others in this newsgroup are mean, rude, arrogant and
derogatory, then I apologise to everyone else but say that it is now
necessary.

You all have my deep regrets that such an action has become necessary. If a
publicly posted apology by Eep, showing his remorse over his comments and
actions, directed to the entire group here, is posted sometime today, then
this action will not be necessary whatsoever.

Everyone else, please make note of this last offer to him - even after his
latest postings - I dont want you guys thinking that this is something that
I like having to do.

It is entirely up to you Eep.

Sincerly,
Fletcher Andersen
AW Support


>
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 12:59pm

> and horns! Plant a bug on Rick's office computer that types "I AM SATAN!"
> every time he pushes the 6 key.

hehehehehehe


F.




>
>
> --
> Wing
> This little spot is dedicated to my girl, Jessie.
> She paints her nails, and she dont know, he's got her best friend on the
> phone,
> She'll wash her hair, his dirty clothes, for all he gives to her. And he's
> got posters on the wall
> Of all the girls he wish she was, and he means everything to her. Her
> boyfriend, he dont know,
> Anything, about her... She's just the flavor of the week.
> AW Citizen 305004 "Wing"
> bathgate at prodigy.net
> eyemwing at teleport.com
> ICQ #101207433
>
>

Feb 8, 2001, 4:25pm

Don't throw Eep out. It will do more harm than good.

rolu

[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 5:01pm

[View Quote]
He sunk his own boat already, im afraid - if he does a public apology, then
he will not be banned from here - it is very, very simple really - and not
such a hard thing to ask of a decent person. Guess we will find out if he is
one, or if he choses to just reply to this with another flame, and round of
insults.

He is the chooser, of whether he remains in here or not, make absolutly no
mistake about that. He is not going to be banned, he jsut needs do a simple
thing to satisy respect and courtesy, and as I am a very understanding
person, I am doing so - trust me, if this had of been anyone else, he would
of been out of here many, many posts ago.

F.

> rolu
>
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 5:09pm

I rarely post to the ng's, but here goes... Facter, I fully understand your feelings about the way Eep attacks people when he thinks they have said or done something he regards as stupid. He does do it in a personal manner. He does leap across the bounds of what most people consider common courtesy. I've shaken my head in dismay many a time when reading what he says to newcomers and to people trying to communicate in a language not their native tongue, etc.

I'm sure there are many people cheering your decision to ban Eep from the ng unless he posts a public apology to you. I'm *not* one of the ones cheering. :-(

I hope that you, Facter, will reconsider drawing that kind of line in the sand. Chalk it up to post-flu (not to mention overwork while ill) anger at how Eep addressed you personally, how he talks to others and how he talks about the company.

People can choose to filter him, mute him, just not read his posts, whatever. But to take away *anyone's* privilege to post to the ng's based on what you wrote below, is carrying the ability to muzzle him too far, imho.

Unless a moderated (read "censored") newsgroup is what people *really* want in here again, then "mean, rude, arrogant and derogatory" remarks are part and parcel of the newsgroup. Along with nuggets of good information (yes, from Eep as well as others), thoughtful posts and courteous people helping others.

I believe it's better to leave it to the individual readers to decide if they want to filter *anyone* or not. Please don't take it on yourself to make that decision for us, Facter. There are plenty of people reading the ng who do appreciate what you, Roland, Tom and many others are trying to do to make Active Worlds better. :-)
Filtering or ignoring is the way to go here... not banning from the newsgroup.

Lara

[View Quote] <snipped>
> I never said I didnt have any power, I said I didnt want to - but, as you
> obviously dont know how to apologise, or be a tolerable person in these
> newsgroups, it is my unfortunate duty to inform you that you will no longer
> have access to them. Access to these newsgroup is a priviledge provided by
> AWCI, not a right.
<snipped>
> This is not an action I wish to take, but unfortunatly, unless a publically
> posted apology to the rest of the group is forthcoming, then you are not
> welcome to post within these newsgroups for the time being.

<snipped>
> I hate doing this, and I hate censorship, but unfortunatly, measures must
> sometimes be taken no matter how much you pesonally dislike doing them - and
> in this case, if this is the only way to show you that your manner, actions
> and comments to others in this newsgroup are mean, rude, arrogant and
> derogatory, then I apologise to everyone else but say that it is now
> necessary.

<snipped>
> You all have my deep regrets that such an action has become necessary. If a
> publicly posted apology by Eep, showing his remorse over his comments and
> actions, directed to the entire group here, is posted sometime today, then
> this action will not be necessary whatsoever.
<snipped>
> Everyone else, please make note of this last offer to him - even after his
> latest postings - I dont want you guys thinking that this is something that
> I like having to do.
>
> It is entirely up to you Eep.
>
> Sincerly,
> Fletcher Andersen
> AW Support

<snipped>
> posts
> even
> that
> personally
> you
<snipped>
> you
> of
> what
> means
> any
> be

Feb 8, 2001, 5:30pm

Everyone listen very clearly.

I am *not* going to spend me personal time, in here, when I am under no
obligation to do so, and watch myself, and other people in this newsgroup be
personally attacked - As I have said, as long as he apologises to the group,
and refraims from being so derogatory in the future, then there is a choice
you can all make, and it can be very democratic.

There are two different ways this can be done.

He is to apologise -

OR


If he does not apologise, then the matter will be put to a vote of the users
of the newsgroups - in a very democratic way. You guys can all take a vote,
on whether he is to remain here, or not - if the vote says he is to stay,
then I will no longer be posting to this newsgroup, and you guys get to keep
him - but, you will also lose any correspondance from me here, and this
group will go back to the way they were before I started posting in here -
apathetic and mainly used for everyone to have a good old bitch about the
company I work for, when they have little or no facts on which to base their
bitching.

So, there are several outcomes here, and this is how it is going to be -
democratic, wise and I am telling you right now, I am being very nice in
even giving these options, because the amount of people around here at the
office, and also citizens who have just said "throw him out" has been vast.

So it can be an apology and a respectful stance from Eep, or a vote. It cant
get any fairer than that.

An apology would be the easiest, most rational course I would think, but I
want to be democratic about this also - I'm not going to decide this issue
for everyone, as Lara nicely pointed out.

Thankyou, btw.

Facter.




[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 5:34pm

Uhm, Eep doesn't really make me mad, I just sort of read and let it go. You
can't take everything so seriously. Just let him stay, its not like hes
holding a gun to our heads, he just makes some arguments, who cares. Life
goes on.

--
-Xero

Feb 8, 2001, 5:37pm

[View Quote] Fair enough, but the course of action remains as it was, I believe it is the
only fair was of addressing this issue.

F.


> --
> -Xero
>
>

Feb 8, 2001, 5:42pm

Well, alright. Eep just doesn't seem the kinda person to apologize and
change into a whole new nice person overnight though, even if he does
apologize it doesn't gurentee he will stop posting messages and making
arguments, there for, whatever happens, it will probably be end up someone
loosing something and someone gaining something.If he is banned, there is no
doubt that there would be a big protest from Eep, possibly on his webpage,
and with some messages from all of us on there to make everyone look bad.
And if he stays, then nothing will change probably, so, I just wouldn't
bother to waste the time, thats all I am basically trying to say I guess.

--
-Xero

Feb 8, 2001, 5:45pm

Lara, in some of the things you have stated I would agree, but why should I, or anyone else, have to filter or passover eeps rantings, or be the brunt of his childish behavior just to read this newsgroup? You are asking that all of the posters and readers of this group modify our behavior just to molify eep. Now that's not fair to the rest of us. While at times eep has been very helpful, most of the time he isn't. Just flames or putdown of aw etc. I, for one
don't want to have to read through all of his crap just to see if he has said anything worthwhile. Of course , eep is going to drop his pages again in protest, but, as the saying goes "Oh well...". I am getting tired of getting eye strain trying to read them anyway.

Holistic1

[View Quote] > I rarely post to the ng's, but here goes... Facter, I fully understand your feelings about the way Eep attacks people when he thinks they have said or done something he regards as stupid. He does do it in a personal manner. He does leap across the bounds of what most people consider common courtesy. I've shaken my head in dismay many a time when reading what he says to newcomers and to people trying to communicate in a language not their native tongue, etc.
>
> I'm sure there are many people cheering your decision to ban Eep from the ng unless he posts a public apology to you. I'm *not* one of the ones cheering. :-(
>
> I hope that you, Facter, will reconsider drawing that kind of line in the sand. Chalk it up to post-flu (not to mention overwork while ill) anger at how Eep addressed you personally, how he talks to others and how he talks about the company.
>
> People can choose to filter him, mute him, just not read his posts, whatever. But to take away *anyone's* privilege to post to the ng's based on what you wrote below, is carrying the ability to muzzle him too far, imho.
>
> Unless a moderated (read "censored") newsgroup is what people *really* want in here again, then "mean, rude, arrogant and derogatory" remarks are part and parcel of the newsgroup. Along with nuggets of good information (yes, from Eep as well as others), thoughtful posts and courteous people helping others.
>
> I believe it's better to leave it to the individual readers to decide if they want to filter *anyone* or not. Please don't take it on yourself to make that decision for us, Facter. There are plenty of people reading the ng who do appreciate what you, Roland, Tom and many others are trying to do to make Active Worlds better. :-)
> Filtering or ignoring is the way to go here... not banning from the newsgroup.
>
> Lara
>
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 5:49pm

Eep likes to argue, maybe he gets something out of this, you know maybe some
extra thrills or something, who knows, who cares. If hes banned then lets
just see how it goes in here without him cause it may get kinda boring
without the eepster. Who would be the one to start all the big debates?
Cause I sure am not doing it, you wanna volenteer?

--
-Xero

Feb 8, 2001, 5:52pm

[View Quote] It takes a strong will to stand up and admit when one is wrong, it is always
alot easier to deny, and pretend that there is no fault.

This isnt the case - there is fault here, and he should be strong enough to
admit it, yes, either way, if he does not apologise, you guys lose out.
Which is the whole point in him apologising, because in that way, we avoid
the entire mess that will be created if he does not.

I'm sorry, but I myself can not honorably jsut sit there and go "Oh, okay,
thats all very well and cool he can jsut sit in here and insult, defame and
be rude to people all he wants, i'm jsut going to pretend it doesnt exist" ,
thats not the kind of person I am.

There is a very simple way around this situation, that he has created for
himself. I just hope that your common sense prevails here, Eep.

F.

Feb 8, 2001, 5:53pm

Facter, any kind of vote by users of this newsgroup is not the point I was trying to make and would hardly be democratic at all. Sorry that I wasn't clear. The individual reader's ability to use filter or simply ignore messages by certain posters is all that is needed. There is no need for anyone to *watch* himself/herself being personally attacked. There is no need to make it a "him or me" issue. It's simple. Filter or ignore them. We all have probably skipped posts we don't want to bother to read. Don't take away the privilege to post and certainly don't put it up to some kind of "vote".

You willingness to come into the newsgroup to post as a citizen or as an employee is always appreciated. It has nothing to do with Facter vs Eep, truly.

Lara

[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 5:57pm

Greetings lara, long time no speak :)

sorry but I disagree.

Its so easy now to use the word censorship as a veiled threat, along with
moderated etc etc, and sure many will scream civil liberties etc etc.. but
in a newsgroup there are similarities to real life, even if people believe
that because its on the net and theres no personal presence they are immune
to real world realities.

If someone walked up to a kid in the street (lets say a 12 year old exchange
student) and said hey f**kwit, learn to speak english before you open your
mouth a**h**e... then that person would likely be looking at a court
appearance, or a smack in the mouth depending on who heard them. Well its
happened to people in this newsgroup, its immature, bigoted, stupid and
unneeded, and anyone operating at that level should be restrained for the
benefit of the community.

If someone says in the newsgroup.. suck filter f**kwit its the equivalent
of verbally walking up and hitting someone. In real life.. possible court
appearance or smack in the mouth back depending on who said to.

Currently this newsgroup is censored and moderated, its moderated by eep,
who if you dont agree with him, you get personal attacks ad infinitum until
you leave.

Why do you think most long term users dont post here anymore??

Why do you think AWCI personnel stopped posting in here??

Everyone puts up with the distorted reality of a person whos only object is
verbal terrorism in a war they have decided to take to everyone else.. its
little short of cyber terrorism.

Like any terrorist with a real or imagined war to fight, the casualties are
the innocent, and those who have no real interest.. they have two
choices... accept the fact by implication and just cringe when it happens,
and hope it doesn't happen to them, or make a stand, and until people make a
stand it will continue.

This is a community, and needs some form of control. Currently that control
is provided by eep, and that is more wrong than factor asking politely for
what any normal person has a right to expect.

I agree that from time to time eep makes a good point, but then so do many
serious repeat offenders convicted of real world crime and locked up:)

The fact that someones opinion is valid, invalid or whatever is no cause for
removal from a community, either in real life by conviction, or in a
newsgroup by banning, but when someone does not have the ability to act in
a manner acceptable to common decency, or is bigoted, racist or violent,
physically or verbally, then censorship has no part in the decision, it is
protection of the community.

Before we shout censorship, lets look at the censorship that exists here
already.

Moria


[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 6:06pm

Lets just see how Eep responds to Facter's choices. If Eep is a total ahole
about it, then I will agree with Facter and let him take the appropiet
actions. If he takes this responsibily I will not mind him staying here.
What he does after that will be judged later on but it is not important now.
I say we all wait for Eep until we can validly discuss this any longer.
Anyway, its his choice now, not ours.

--
-Xero

Feb 8, 2001, 6:08pm

I know what you mean, holistic1. I already do skip a lot of childish posts in the ng, once I've determined that some particular posters don't ever say anything I'm interested in reading. :-) If the bad outweighs anything informative someone has to say, I still say, just skip that particular poster's messages. Same with websites if they are too hard to read, navigate, load, etc.

Lara

[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 6:10pm

[View Quote]
Agreed.

F.

Feb 8, 2001, 6:13pm

Facter, I think you're a bit too into this Survivor thing. But I'll go along
with it as the decision to remove someone is NOT to be left up to one person
in power in my opinion (on a long term basis). No recounts should be allowed
either. Now for a quick word. If Eep goes, who's next? Could this be the
beginning of the end for any peace in these groups? Stay tuned...

--
Wing
This little spot is dedicated to my girl, Jessie.
She paints her nails, and she dont know, he's got her best friend on the
phone,
She'll wash her hair, his dirty clothes, for all he gives to her. And he's
got posters on the wall
Of all the girls he wish she was, and he means everything to her. Her
boyfriend, he dont know,
Anything, about her... She's just the flavor of the week.
AW Citizen 305004 "Wing"
bathgate at prodigy.net
eyemwing at teleport.com
ICQ #101207433
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 6:17pm

Wing, Facter is letting Eep apologize, if he does, he can stay. Facter is
not just banning everyone without notice. He also said we could take a vote,
which I'd rather not, I've made that bad choice way to many times.
Apologizing is simple and if Eep is so strong, he should be able to do it.
So lets just wait and see.

--
-Xero

Feb 8, 2001, 6:23pm

Well.....I recon I'll add my 2 cents here.
When I first came to AW.....I discovered the ngs and thought...oh cool!
Another way to learn and share.
I asked Alpha what they were all about, and he insisted I not go to them.
Soooo...of course I asked..."why?"
He said....."Honey...those people will tear you apart...you will be
flamed...and you will be hurt"
You folks know me....I didn't take his advice:)
In my first posts...I did get flamed.....it hurt...yes...but I just couldn't
stay out of here.Because there were alot of folks offering a ton of info
that I could apply to my learning experiance in AW.
I know of some "AW Masters" who used to offer their knowledge in here,
leaving also because of flame wars.
Someone said without certain individuals in here it would be boring.....I
prefer to state it as..."with flaming under control...it's possible the ngs
will once again become a place to share and learn"
Eep...you have a ton of stuff to offer us here with your knowledge and
background. I implore you to put it behind you and do what is needed so we
can pick that fantastic brain of yours again:)
Huggggs;)
Bit:)

Feb 8, 2001, 6:33pm

I have only seen this discussion from one side since I filtered eep a little while back. What strikes me is how this is made into a real big issue, ban him or don't; I don't really care. But please don't blow up his ego even more with your long post (trying to convince eep with logic heh it's kind of naive) or turning this into a vote. If I were you I would probably ignore/filter eep so he can't turn this into another AWCI suck webpage. And he would probably take down his renderware site if he were banned too...

[View Quote] > Everyone listen very clearly.
>
> I am *not* going to spend me personal time, in here, when I am under no
> obligation to do so, and watch myself, and other people in this newsgroup be
> personally attacked - As I have said, as long as he apologises to the group,
> and refraims from being so derogatory in the future, then there is a choice
> you can all make, and it can be very democratic.
>
> There are two different ways this can be done.
>
> He is to apologise -
>
> OR
>
> If he does not apologise, then the matter will be put to a vote of the users
> of the newsgroups - in a very democratic way. You guys can all take a vote,
> on whether he is to remain here, or not - if the vote says he is to stay,
> then I will no longer be posting to this newsgroup, and you guys get to keep
> him - but, you will also lose any correspondance from me here, and this
> group will go back to the way they were before I started posting in here -
> apathetic and mainly used for everyone to have a good old bitch about the
> company I work for, when they have little or no facts on which to base their
> bitching.
>
> So, there are several outcomes here, and this is how it is going to be -
> democratic, wise and I am telling you right now, I am being very nice in
> even giving these options, because the amount of people around here at the
> office, and also citizens who have just said "throw him out" has been vast.
>
> So it can be an apology and a respectful stance from Eep, or a vote. It cant
> get any fairer than that.
>
> An apology would be the easiest, most rational course I would think, but I
> want to be democratic about this also - I'm not going to decide this issue
> for everyone, as Lara nicely pointed out.
>
> Thankyou, btw.
>
> Facter.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 7:16pm

My turn to add my two cents.rwx in here:

Sorry, Moria, Facter, et al, but there is no way I can agree with
anything you've said. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between personal
censorship (i.e. filtering, ignoring posts, etc) and full-blown
censorship. (banning from NGs, etc) What you are proposing is the
latter: Complete censorship of Eep simply because his statements
offended you.

Why do you think Eep does this sort of thing in the newsgroups? Why do
you think he prefers to make personal attacks in the newsgroups as
opposed to one-on-one in email or tgrams? Attention, plain and simple.
He wants to make himself appear bigger and badder than the "incompetent
twits" around him. If you filter him, effectively ignoring him, he will
stop his pointless banter because it won't have any effect. (I've seen
it happen many times) Personal censorship, individual censorship, is the
answer, not outright banning. If you are to ban Eep for insulting you,
what's next? Banning people who speak ill of Rick & JP? Banning people
for disliking an AWCI policy? Where do you draw the line?

Were Eep's attacks unwarranted? Yes, indeed they were. But it was
because you chose to respond to his taunts that caused him to continue.
If you hadn't replied to him directly and simply brushed him off (or
filtered him outright) he would've stopped and this thread (among
others) wouldn't be nearly as long as it is now. Therefore, you are also
partly to blame for all this by unconsciously egging him on. (It takes
two to tango, after all) If you had filtered him in the first place,
none of this would've happened.

And this is why the newsgroup format is *not* like real life. In real
life, you can't click a button and make the person who attacked you
disappear from your life. Here, you can, and that's the beauty of the
whole system. Saying that these newsgroups are censored by Eep is
preposterous... He can only affect you if you *let* him affect you.

So Facter, I implore you to reconsider this proposal and let Eep stay.
Those of us who've been here for quite sometime (myself included) have
learned how to deal with him, and so can you. However, if you choose to
ban Eep from these newsgroups simply because you are unwilling to take
any *personal* action, then I'm afraid I have no recourse but to leave
the newsgroups as well. For though I may dislike Eep, I dislike
censorship even more, and I won't be party to a so-called "community"
that shuts out certain people simply because they rub you the wrong way.

--
Robert "Goober King" Rodehorst
Censorship is the root of all ignorance
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

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