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Nov 14, 2000, 1:50am

Hi all,
I have some good news for everyone, and that is that we have now updated
the USWF website. We hope that we have fixed most of the errors which have
been pointed out in the earlier comments and suggestions/complaints.
Please visit our website at: www.geocities.com/uswf_head and let us know
what you think at uswf at centercom.com.au
If there is anything else that needs fixing, mj and I will gladly fix it
A.S.A.P. We want it to be perfect, so we're doing as everyone suggests 8^D


--
Best Regards,
Anduin Lothar (Samuel Lison)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The USWF, There's No Better Place!
Contact: uswf at centercom.com.au
Web-Page: www.geocities.com/uswf_head
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
My Song Picks for the Month (If I like em, you gotta get em!):
[The Artful Dodger] - Re-Rewind The Crowd Say Bo Selecta
[Paul Van Dyk] - Another Way
[Delerium] - Heaven's Earth
[Armin] - Communication
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
--


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`
end

Nov 14, 2000, 2:15am

Ok, this is going out to all you budding website developers out there,
since everyone seems to make the same mistakes (not just you, Anduin :))

1. Make sure the thing works in Netscape. If it works in Netscape, it'll
work in IE, promise. If you truly want to reach the widest number of
people possible, you'll make sure it works for the largest number of
browsers. And by "making it work", I mean make sure the page operates
exactly the same way in both browsers. If there's a frame in the middle
when you look at it in IE, make sure that frame appears in Netscape as
well. If the links change color in IE, make sure they change color in NS
too. etc.

2. It would be wise for you to learn actual HTML coding, as opposed to
simply creating the page in FrontPage or Dreamweaver or what-have-you.
Trust me, you'll be able to do a *lot* more with your website if you
know how the internal coding works, and you'll also be able to fix any
problems easily by just going into the code and changing a tag or two.

3. While your at it, be sure to learn about the differences between IE
and NS. (there are *plenty*) The basic rundown is IE lets you do more
things, but it's not as robust and secure as NS. (This may change come
NN6, tho) Sometimes making websites cross-browser compatible means
writing two entirely different chunks of code to do the same things.
Yea, it's a pain in the ass, but that's life in the web world. :-/ Just
keep yer fingers crossed and *maybe* MS and NS will actually agree on
something for once.

Hope this helps you guys out :)
--
Goober King
Real Men Use Notepad!
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Nov 14, 2000, 5:33am

Hmmmm. Good points and I agree with the sentiment. I stopped using HTML
tools once I learned to code the HTML directly for that exact reason - much
more flexible - but once you make that step, you inevitably move onto DHTML
and JavaScript and its not always that easy to make that cross-browser
compatible, especially while you're learning.

Perhaps a compromise here for AW web-sites is that the AW pages are coded in
a way that would correctly resize so they can be viewed properly within the
AW browser window without having to stretch it across the screen (although I
know alot of people don't use that)? Just a thought.

Gotta admit to being one of those people who hasn't got the hang of NS
layers yet for a start - I learned DHTML/JavaScript using IE and it looks a
real mess in NS, so I don't let people with NS into the site (just give 'em
a "sorry" page). Its a "private" site anyway (just as a way to learn the
coding and share some information with some friends) so that's my excuse
:O).

But, like I said, the sentiment is correct. Its just a shame that a platform
independant medium like the web isn't platform independant thanks to having
a number of totally different standards out there. A wonderfully abundant
public domain resource of information screwed up by corporate greed. Hmfph.

A lot of the books out there now on DHTML and JavaScript cover both the IE
and NS way of doing things, so if anyone if going to get one, check what
platforms it covers as well as the subjects.

BTW, I never found NS robust at all - not even on linux. Perhaps it's just
me, but it crashes more times than my ISP !! ;(

Grims.


[View Quote]

Nov 14, 2000, 10:03am

I find that Frontpage sucks period and that Dreamweaver is a great tool for
the basics. You know, generic HTML website with some flash and maybe a few
java goodies stuck in. I personally use it for the beginning of my sites,
and then switch over to notepad. It's also a great tool for being lazy and
doing a cheap photo gallery for local viewing only. No glitz or glamor, just
tables and JPGs. That'd also make it pretty cool for doing help files since
you wanna keep them as low tech as possible.

[View Quote] > Ok, this is going out to all you budding website developers out there,
> since everyone seems to make the same mistakes (not just you, Anduin :))
>
> 1. Make sure the thing works in Netscape. If it works in Netscape, it'll
> work in IE, promise. If you truly want to reach the widest number of
> people possible, you'll make sure it works for the largest number of
> browsers. And by "making it work", I mean make sure the page operates
> exactly the same way in both browsers. If there's a frame in the middle
> when you look at it in IE, make sure that frame appears in Netscape as
> well. If the links change color in IE, make sure they change color in NS
> too. etc.
>
> 2. It would be wise for you to learn actual HTML coding, as opposed to
> simply creating the page in FrontPage or Dreamweaver or what-have-you.
> Trust me, you'll be able to do a *lot* more with your website if you
> know how the internal coding works, and you'll also be able to fix any
> problems easily by just going into the code and changing a tag or two.
>
> 3. While your at it, be sure to learn about the differences between IE
> and NS. (there are *plenty*) The basic rundown is IE lets you do more
> things, but it's not as robust and secure as NS. (This may change come
> NN6, tho) Sometimes making websites cross-browser compatible means
> writing two entirely different chunks of code to do the same things.
> Yea, it's a pain in the ass, but that's life in the web world. :-/ Just
> keep yer fingers crossed and *maybe* MS and NS will actually agree on
> something for once.
>
> Hope this helps you guys out :)
> --
> Goober King
> Real Men Use Notepad!
> rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Nov 14, 2000, 10:07am

[View Quote] > BTW, I never found NS robust at all - not even on linux. Perhaps it's just
>me, but it crashes more times than my ISP !! ;(

Strange, i've never experienced a NN crash. My computer is very temperture
sensitive cuz i got some cheap RAM and a cheap CPU, and RAM errors grow
exponentially worse as the temperture approaches 123 degrees farenheit. I find
that Netscape will run well beyond that temperture barrier with no problems, but
IE and OE will crash on launch at 115 degrees. This means that if I wanna check
my second email thru outlook, it must be early morning or i hafta turn on this
big 32" fan i have pointed at the opened case.

Nov 15, 2000, 12:26am

I haven't got netscape myself because I don't use it. The webpage is suppose
to work for ActiveWorlds, and ActiveWorlds uses Internet Explorer, so the
webpage will work for AW users cause they must have IE installed.
Second of all, I know HTML coding and so does mj. Infect, mj made that page
from scratch all in notepad, as well as what I am starting to do now also.

But yes, they are good tips :)



--
Best Regards,
Anduin Lothar (Samuel Lison)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The USWF, There's No Better Place!
Contact: uswf at centercom.com.au
Web-Page: www.geocities.com/uswf_head
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
My Song Picks for the Month (If I like em, you gotta get em!):
[The Artful Dodger] - Re-Rewind The Crowd Say Bo Selecta
[Paul Van Dyk] - Another Way
[Delerium] - Heaven's Earth
[Armin] - Communication
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
--
[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 12:35am

uh-oh. Guess its me then - but it only takes a couple of crashed for me to
lose patience with it.

Never mind.


[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 1:14am

dude.
"...as the temperture approaches 123 degrees farenheit. I find
that Netscape will run well beyond that temperture barrier with no
problems, but
IE and OE will crash on launch at 115 degrees..."
my cpu's highest clocked temp is 93. get another fan before you kill that
sucker...

Nov 15, 2000, 2:49am

Still, it would behoove you to get both browsers. Just because Netscape
is on your system doesn't mean you have to use it. (It won't bite,
honest) That's really the only reason I still have IE on my comp, so I
can actually see pages that were made by brainwashed IE users. ;P You
can make the webpage in Notepad and look at it in NS to make sure it
works, then you'll never have to open it again. How painless! :)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Proof that Goobers ARE as dumb as they look.
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Nov 15, 2000, 3:02am

Homesite is an Awesome HTML tool to operate in both html code and newbie format.
or you can build it in netscrape or frontpage, open it in Homesite and fix your
errors


--
Chris Waddell
dmonix at home.com
www.dmonix.net

Nov 15, 2000, 6:46am

Odd; mine's at 131 degrees F yet I don't get lockups...well, I did a couple times playing No One Lives Forever, but I've had this CPU for a couple months now and only got NOLF this week.

[View Quote] > dude.
> "...as the temperture approaches 123 degrees farenheit. I find
> that Netscape will run well beyond that temperture barrier with no
> problems, but
> IE and OE will crash on launch at 115 degrees..."
> my cpu's highest clocked temp is 93. get another fan before you kill that
> sucker...

Nov 15, 2000, 9:04am

BUt still, I really couldn't be bothered downloading netscape, it's a pain
in the buttox, lol. Tell you what though, tell me what doesn't work in
netscape and we will see what we can do :) And maybe you can tell us what we
need to do to fix that actual part...

--
Best Regards,
Anduin Lothar (Samuel Lison)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The USWF, There's No Better Place!
Contact: uswf at centercom.com.au
Web-Page: www.geocities.com/uswf_head
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
My Song Picks for the Month (If I like em, you gotta get em!):
[The Artful Dodger] - Re-Rewind The Crowd Say Bo Selecta
[Paul Van Dyk] - Another Way
[Delerium] - Heaven's Earth
[Armin] - Communication
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
--
[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 10:01am

Only reason I keep IE on my system is so I can actually perform file management
tasks. Once it's gone so is copy, moving, and various other important procedures.
Been there, done that.
[View Quote] > Still, it would behoove you to get both browsers. Just because Netscape
> is on your system doesn't mean you have to use it. (It won't bite,
> honest) That's really the only reason I still have IE on my comp, so I
> can actually see pages that were made by brainwashed IE users. ;P You
> can make the webpage in Notepad and look at it in NS to make sure it
> works, then you'll never have to open it again. How painless! :)
>
[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 12:43pm

IE isn't required for file management. I didn't have IE installed after installing Win95 and could do file management just fine.

[View Quote] > Only reason I keep IE on my system is so I can actually perform file management
> tasks. Once it's gone so is copy, moving, and various other important procedures.
> Been there, done that.
[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 3:21pm

Well, for starters, the frame in the center of the page doesn't appear
in NS. (This is because NS doesn't recognize the IFRAME tag. If you want
to do something like that, just use normal frames.) Also, the links do
not change color when you hover over them. (another IE-specific feature)
And when you click a link, it opens a new window. (again, I'm assuming,
because there's no frame) Also the forms in NS look different than they
do in IE. (IE look like flat grey boxes with a black border, and NS
looks like the default white box with raised border) This is because
there are no style properties for form elements in NS. (hopefully that
will change come NN6)

As I've said, IE does let you do more things with your website. However,
since NS is more conservative in nature, websites that are tailored to
NS are more robust. (I've never seen a webpage specifically made for NS
that's crashed my browser) Yes, making a website cross-browser
compatible is a pain in the ass, I'll admit that right up front. I
seriously wish that both companies could agree on some HTML standard,
but alas that's not the case. If you're truly interested making USWF
well-known, you should make the site as compatible as possible so you
can reach the widest range of people possible. Just assuming that
everyone in AW has IE (or uses it) isn't the way to go about it. It's
just good business sense.

[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 4:05pm

Perhaps someone who knows the common ground between IE and NS could help him
out?

I would offer, but it ain't my strong point (as I pointed out earlier). At
least a few pointers to get him underway quickly. Inline frames are out, and
so are certain parts of the style sheets by the sound of it. Any web-links
anyone has got would be useful, as I would be interested too.

Grims


[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 5:38pm

Hmmm good point. I'll talk with the webmaster and we'll see what we can do,
so like on the very first page we can ask for people to choose whether they
want to use the IE customized HTML code or Netscape coding....



--
Best Regards,
Anduin Lothar (Samuel Lison)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The USWF, There's No Better Place!
Contact: uswf at centercom.com.au
Web-Page: www.geocities.com/uswf_head
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
My Song Picks for the Month (If I like em, you gotta get em!):
[The Artful Dodger] - Re-Rewind The Crowd Say Bo Selecta
[Paul Van Dyk] - Another Way
[Delerium] - Heaven's Earth
[Armin] - Communication
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
--
[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 6:23pm

I KNOW it isn't required under 95, but on 98 it apparently is. I've uninstalled IE twice with the same results, and one of those was
when the system crashed in the middle of uninstall and I initially blamed that.

[View Quote] > IE isn't required for file management. I didn't have IE installed after installing Win95 and could do file management just fine.
>
[View Quote]

Nov 15, 2000, 9:46pm

You can tell what browser they're using from the document model in
javascript. For example:

<script language='javascript'>
if (navigator.appName == "Microsoft Internet Explorer")
top.location.href='<IE content home page>'
else
top.location.href='<HTML content home page>'
</script>

There are other application checks you can make. Can't remember what
netscape's name is (but I assume it contains "Netscape") and my book is
buried somewhere but it'll be on the web somewhere.

There's nothing stopping you enhancing the site for both at a later date,
but this will get you started on separating the content.

Grims


[View Quote]

Nov 16, 2000, 2:03am

Get the common ground: Mozilla! (www.mozilla.org)
_________________________
John Viper
http://www.jtsoft.net
"Java is a machine. You put Java code in one end, and money comes out the other." - Anonymous

[View Quote]

Nov 16, 2000, 4:29am

http://www.zdnet.com/devhead/resources/tag_library/

[View Quote] > Perhaps someone who knows the common ground between IE and NS could help him
> out?

Nov 16, 2000, 4:42am

Well, you didn't specify which Windows it was for. Anyway, I don't understand: you uninstalled IE twice, during which one unstallation your system crashed in the middle of it and you could no longer do file management? Perhaps you didn't uninstall IE correctly or something, but I doubt IE is required for Win98 any more than it is for Win95. Dunno about Win2K and ME, however.

[View Quote] > I KNOW it isn't required under 95, but on 98 it apparently is. I've uninstalled IE twice with the same results, and one of those was
> when the system crashed in the middle of uninstall and I initially blamed that.
>
[View Quote]

Nov 16, 2000, 6:24am

Thanks Eep. No time right now, but its duly bookmarked.

[View Quote]

Nov 16, 2000, 9:54am

--
Best Regards,
Anduin Lothar (Samuel Lison)

Thanx Eep

> http://www.zdnet.com/devhead/resources/tag_library/
>
[View Quote]

Nov 16, 2000, 11:22am

Finally found a better source I used to have bookmarked, but lost due to a corrupt Partition Magic partition resize. I tried to find it earlier but didn't have any success. Anyway, it's http://www.ncdesign.org/html/list.htm which is the SOURCE of the HTML spec and lists what tags Navigator and IE can do.

[View Quote] > http://www.zdnet.com/devhead/resources/tag_library/
>
[View Quote]

Nov 16, 2000, 12:53pm

Actually, that IS a much better link. Exactly what people need for the job.
Makes a change to find precisely what you are looking for instead of trying
to scrape the info together from multiple sources.

Thanks again.

Grims

[View Quote]

Nov 16, 2000, 9:27pm

Interesting - Seems like IE supports almost everything whilst NS has a lot
of gaps. A fair guess would be if you use a webpage creator, and what you
do looks good in NS, then you'll be pretty much covered.

- Justin

[View Quote]

Nov 17, 2000, 1:41am

It's not that NS has any gaps in it... it's just that, at the time, NS
didn't want to risk putting in any complex HTML features that might
crash the browser, or worse. (as some IE-recognized commands can do on
not-so-great systems) However it seems that with NN6, they'll be
ditching that philosophy for the most part. Of course, never having used
it, I can only speculate based on rumors. Perhaps someone who has NN6
could give us a good comparison between that and IE? :)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
One fact he *does* know... NN6 will kick ass.
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Nov 17, 2000, 6:29am

You should always validate your html over at the World Wide Web Consortium.

The url is: http://validator.w3.org/


If your html validates correctly at W3C to your chosen DTD, that means
that your HTML is coompletely standards compliant, and that's as good as
it gets. With standards compliant HTML you should be alright in most
browsers.

....and while we're on the subject of DTD's, there's no such thing as
HTML 3.2 Transitional (and validator.w3.org also points this out). If
you're handcoding your site, you should use the new XHTML1.0
Transitional or even better, XHTML1.0 Strict. (XHTML1.0 is basically
HTML4.01 reformulated in XML)


The biggest problem on your site is your use of IFRAME. Skip it. (frames
generally suck and iframes suck even worse, since they are a MS creation
and not supported by most other browsers)

--
Kind regards,
Dennis Plougman Buus
Email: dbuus at post1.tele.dk
ICQ UIN: 342364

Nov 17, 2000, 9:48am

I had NN6 a while back, and HATED it. It was ugly, rarely loaded, and was
incredibly slow and crashed a TON. That is, assuming NN6 is still the java-based
beta version that I tried. I'm sticking to NC4.75 and IE5.5 until somthing clearly
better comes along.

[View Quote] > It's not that NS has any gaps in it... it's just that, at the time, NS
> didn't want to risk putting in any complex HTML features that might
> crash the browser, or worse. (as some IE-recognized commands can do on
> not-so-great systems) However it seems that with NN6, they'll be
> ditching that philosophy for the most part. Of course, never having used
> it, I can only speculate based on rumors. Perhaps someone who has NN6
> could give us a good comparison between that and IE? :)
>
[View Quote]

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