Newsgroup and Bashing (Community)

Newsgroup and Bashing // Community

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jetta lewis

Nov 30, 1999, 9:22am
Ya know what? I ain't been bashed, flamed, mocked, nor riduculed......not
once in this "new" newsgroup. Yes, I admit it, I've posted some messages
just to see if it would happen. I see several ppl are wanting to start up
new groups for 'free' passage of info and that they are going to censor it
for content, to prevent bashing, et al and to promote the passage of info to
help the community. Got a hot flash for ya!! Here it is. I have seen
several messages, so far, that in the past would have brought on a storm of
bashing and counter bashing. You can start the new groups and I will look
in on them, but until it can be shown to me, that AW is deliberatly keeping
anyone from posting in here, because of who they are, rather than what they
have to say, I will stick around. I admit, I have my own 'bones to pick'
with AW, but will not deny that this is one of the best ideas they have ever
had. The one thing that does bother me about this, is the inablility of non
cits to post. They have legitimate questions, and from what I have observed
in the past, are the last ones to cause any trouble. AW.com, you should
reconsider that decision. Give it a shot. What have you got to lose? If
malcontents use that means to communicate, you can always go back to what
you are doing now. As it is, you are denying your future customers the
ability to get much needed info and treating them as non entities.As far as
other ngs are concerned, you can bet your life, that there are other ng in
the works. Weather or not they can provide a quality service remains to be
seen.

macb

Nov 30, 1999, 3:15pm
Stepping up to the plate.....

Well I am not the rough and tumble type who goes to seedy bars and breaks
bottles over people's heads like in the Hollywood westerns. On the other
hand, I really can't understand what all the concern is about a little
"bashing". There are what... 30,000 usenet newsgroups? I don't think I
have found one yet where there is no bashing, trolling, spamming and all
sorts of other bad behavior. Not once have I been traumatized by reading
something in a newsgroup.

I have also witnessed in this very newsgroup (actually its predecessor
"awcommunity") cases where people who's native language was not English said
things which seemed a bit harsh. In many such cases, the "bashing" is in
the eye of the beholder. There is no disputing the usefulness of the
technical newsgroups here "worldbuilders", "sdk", "beta". But THIS group
is where you could come to find out what people think. People you might
not run into in AW because of time differences or world preferences. If I
post something here that someone violently disagrees with, and the only way
they can express their disagreement is to call me an idiot, well.... I think
I can live with that.

On the other hand... there are people in this world who cannot let a piece
of lint go unpicked off your collar. They can't live in a neighborhood
where the houses are not color coordinated. If they prefer Amoretto
flavored coffee, they can't see why everyone doesn't drink it. Not only do
they know what's best for their children, but they know what's best for YOUR
children. Given a podium they will be glad to tell you what is best for
you. Given authority they will order you to do things their way. Given a
weapon they will dispose of you if you refuse.

I don't know much about you or your politics Jetta, but based on the names
of the worlds you own, I bet you have a strong appreciation for the value of
diversity and the benefits that can come from it. This diversity is in my
opinion one of the most important things about AW. It is being slowly
destroyed by people who don't share that appreciation. Maybe his message
will get through. Maybe most of our messages will get through. Have I
"bashed" anyone here?

Read that charter again. The mechanism is in place to filter out anything
that "needs" to be filtered out, based on the opinions of a few people, and
maybe a coin toss. Restricting this forum to citizens is really an
administrative issue, it automatically filters out a few known
"troublemakers", and leaves less work for the "gods" that monitor this
group.

I marvel at the lint pickers ability to derive pleasure from the act.

The number of posts to newsgroups about AW is down. WAY down. And not
just this newgroup, but all of them. I leave it as an exercise to the
reader to figure out why.

[View Quote]

terry kafader

Nov 30, 1999, 9:53pm
MacB, that was very well said.....Now hows that for a flame...:)

Terry

[View Quote] > Stepping up to the plate.....
>
> Well I am not the rough and tumble type who goes to seedy bars and breaks
> bottles over people's heads like in the Hollywood westerns. On the other
> hand, I really can't understand what all the concern is about a little
> "bashing". There are what... 30,000 usenet newsgroups? I don't think I
> have found one yet where there is no bashing, trolling, spamming and all
> sorts of other bad behavior. Not once have I been traumatized by reading
> something in a newsgroup.
>
> I have also witnessed in this very newsgroup (actually its predecessor
> "awcommunity") cases where people who's native language was not English said
> things which seemed a bit harsh. In many such cases, the "bashing" is in
> the eye of the beholder. There is no disputing the usefulness of the
> technical newsgroups here "worldbuilders", "sdk", "beta". But THIS group
> is where you could come to find out what people think. People you might
> not run into in AW because of time differences or world preferences. If I
> post something here that someone violently disagrees with, and the only way
> they can express their disagreement is to call me an idiot, well.... I think
> I can live with that.
>
> On the other hand... there are people in this world who cannot let a piece
> of lint go unpicked off your collar. They can't live in a neighborhood
> where the houses are not color coordinated. If they prefer Amoretto
> flavored coffee, they can't see why everyone doesn't drink it. Not only do
> they know what's best for their children, but they know what's best for YOUR
> children. Given a podium they will be glad to tell you what is best for
> you. Given authority they will order you to do things their way. Given a
> weapon they will dispose of you if you refuse.
>
> I don't know much about you or your politics Jetta, but based on the names
> of the worlds you own, I bet you have a strong appreciation for the value of
> diversity and the benefits that can come from it. This diversity is in my
> opinion one of the most important things about AW. It is being slowly
> destroyed by people who don't share that appreciation. Maybe his message
> will get through. Maybe most of our messages will get through. Have I
> "bashed" anyone here?
>
> Read that charter again. The mechanism is in place to filter out anything
> that "needs" to be filtered out, based on the opinions of a few people, and
> maybe a coin toss. Restricting this forum to citizens is really an
> administrative issue, it automatically filters out a few known
> "troublemakers", and leaves less work for the "gods" that monitor this
> group.
>
> I marvel at the lint pickers ability to derive pleasure from the act.
>
> The number of posts to newsgroups about AW is down. WAY down. And not
> just this newgroup, but all of them. I leave it as an exercise to the
> reader to figure out why.
>
[View Quote]

lonesome dove

Dec 1, 1999, 12:32am
Absolutely perfect, MacB. :) :) Diversity is what first amazed me about AW.
Meeting and chatting with in VR, those from whom I am 'worlds apart', in RL.
Discussing and arguing with people I might never meet. Understanding new
viewpoints, and philosophies. Unfortunately, it is the oppression of that
diversity that is making me back away from AW. There are far too many who are
so concerned with what harm a little criticism might do, that they try to block
anything untoward. Too many who want to control it and mold it in their own
image instead of letting it 'become'. Such a shame.

[View Quote] > Stepping up to the plate.....
>
> Well I am not the rough and tumble type who goes to seedy bars and breaks
> bottles over people's heads like in the Hollywood westerns. On the other
> hand, I really can't understand what all the concern is about a little
> "bashing". There are what... 30,000 usenet newsgroups? I don't think I
> have found one yet where there is no bashing, trolling, spamming and all
> sorts of other bad behavior. Not once have I been traumatized by reading
> something in a newsgroup.
>
> I have also witnessed in this very newsgroup (actually its predecessor
> "awcommunity") cases where people who's native language was not English said
> things which seemed a bit harsh. In many such cases, the "bashing" is in
> the eye of the beholder. There is no disputing the usefulness of the
> technical newsgroups here "worldbuilders", "sdk", "beta". But THIS group
> is where you could come to find out what people think. People you might
> not run into in AW because of time differences or world preferences. If I
> post something here that someone violently disagrees with, and the only way
> they can express their disagreement is to call me an idiot, well.... I think
> I can live with that.
>
> On the other hand... there are people in this world who cannot let a piece
> of lint go unpicked off your collar. They can't live in a neighborhood
> where the houses are not color coordinated. If they prefer Amoretto
> flavored coffee, they can't see why everyone doesn't drink it. Not only do
> they know what's best for their children, but they know what's best for YOUR
> children. Given a podium they will be glad to tell you what is best for
> you. Given authority they will order you to do things their way. Given a
> weapon they will dispose of you if you refuse.
>
> I don't know much about you or your politics Jetta, but based on the names
> of the worlds you own, I bet you have a strong appreciation for the value of
> diversity and the benefits that can come from it. This diversity is in my
> opinion one of the most important things about AW. It is being slowly
> destroyed by people who don't share that appreciation. Maybe his message
> will get through. Maybe most of our messages will get through. Have I
> "bashed" anyone here?
>
> Read that charter again. The mechanism is in place to filter out anything
> that "needs" to be filtered out, based on the opinions of a few people, and
> maybe a coin toss. Restricting this forum to citizens is really an
> administrative issue, it automatically filters out a few known
> "troublemakers", and leaves less work for the "gods" that monitor this
> group.
>
> I marvel at the lint pickers ability to derive pleasure from the act.
>
> The number of posts to newsgroups about AW is down. WAY down. And not
> just this newgroup, but all of them. I leave it as an exercise to the
> reader to figure out why.
>
[View Quote]

jetta lewis

Dec 1, 1999, 12:21pm
Yes, that was a neat little flame. However, I would like to point out that
it is a disagreement with what I said. Not an attack on me personally! This
type of give and take is what a community is all about. However, I have seen
this ng be host to some of the most outrageous lies designed to humiliate
and anger fellow members. Just because you have seen nothing but flames,
bashes and attacks in EVERY ng you have visited, doesn't mean we have to put
up with it here. If there are ppl wanting that kind of existance, let them
find those types of ng. I for one, welcome the opportunity of posting,
without being bashed or trashed because of who I am and not what I have to
say. Some ppl in here, see me as a 'power broker' with strong ties to COF.
Not true. I admit I do like the VR theme and am in the process of helping
develope another universe, but do not have any type of 'in' with COF. I pay
my way, just like you do, and my dollars don't give me any more say than
your dollars. Anyway, that is enough sermonizing for me. I will be sitting
back and watching developments. Take care all :o)
[View Quote]

johnny

Dec 19, 1999, 7:17pm
Well said, Mac, but I have to disagree with you on some points. I don't
think that it's an issue of being 'traumatized' by reading flames in the
newsgroup. However, it certainly is counterproductive and a waste of space.
I know that do not like wading through tons of messages where people are
carrying out personal arguments just to find one piece of intelligent
discourse. Something that, amazingly enough, actually has something to do
with AW.

On the other hand, I must also say that I agree with you on the diversity
issue. I love the diversity on AW. It makes AW, like any other community,
a stronger/better community. However, I don't see that creating a moderated
group or even closing it to non-citizens discourages diversity. I don't see
censorship going on here. I don't see AW filtering out posts that criticize
them - or I wouldn't be replying to yours right now. I'd like to see
non-citizens on this board, but I think that AW is very receptive to changes
that come from the community. They may yet reconsider their decision on
that for this board. Have a little patience.

As for the mechanism for censorship being in place, that's true. Although,
it is important to remember that AW, unlike the real world, is an *owned*
place. It is open to the public and can face these issues only because
aw.com/COF chooses to let it be so. They can change it at any time and it
is well within their rights to do so. However, as long as they choose to
let it be a public place, they have no need or reason to censor; only to try
to maintain a certain degree of decorum.

John


[View Quote]

darla stimbert

Dec 19, 1999, 10:33pm
[View Quote]
You never had to 'wade' through anything if you didn't want to. If there
was someone that posted in the Newsgroup that you didn't like or didn't
want to read their opinion you didn't have to read it. There was even a
discussion with instructions on how to filter certain people from your
newsreader. That way you never had to read their posts. So, IMHO, that's
a VERY mute point. On more than one occasion when a thread went off I
would just click on " mark thread read" and go on. No biggy, not hard to
do and a lot like the 'mute' function within AW. We do have choices in
life of what we read and tolerate but we as individuals have the
responsibility to take it upon ourselves to make those choices and not
expect someone else to make those choices for us.

> On the other hand, I must also say that I agree with you on the diversity
> issue. I love the diversity on AW. It makes AW, like any other community,
> a stronger/better community. However, I don't see that creating a moderated
> group or even closing it to non-citizens discourages diversity. I don't see
> censorship going on here. I don't see AW filtering out posts that criticize
> them - or I wouldn't be replying to yours right now. I'd like to see
> non-citizens on this board, but I think that AW is very receptive to changes
> that come from the community. They may yet reconsider their decision on
> that for this board. Have a little patience.

Many people feel they have had more than enough patience. Obviously some
more than others. Other people feel they are at their ends with all of
it and have decided to leave. Unfortunately many seem to be very long
term helpful people in the community. To be fair though, many are just
people tired of it, taking a break or going on with others things.

> As for the mechanism for censorship being in place, that's true. Although,
> it is important to remember that AW, unlike the real world, is an *owned*
> place. It is open to the public and can face these issues only because
> aw.com/COF chooses to let it be so. They can change it at any time and it
> is well within their rights to do so. However, as long as they choose to
> let it be a public place, they have no need or reason to censor; only to try
> to maintain a certain degree of decorum.
At least in part owned by the citizens that pay their fees, world owners
that pay fees and yearly registrations, and of course now by the stock
owners. ( I realize how much $$$ COF invested too)
Casay

Lots- Snipped

darla stimbert

Dec 20, 1999, 1:14am
[View Quote]
You never had to 'wade' through anything if you didn't want to. If there
was someone that posted in the Newsgroup that you didn't like or didn't
want to read their opinion you didn't have to read it. There was even a
discussion with instructions on how to filter certain people from your
newsreader. That way you never had to read their posts. So, IMHO, that's
a VERY mute point. On more than one occasion when a thread went off I
would just click on " mark thread read" and go on. No biggy, not hard to
do and a lot like the 'mute' function within AW. We do have choices in
life of what we read and tolerate but we as individuals have the
responsibility to take it upon ourselves to make those choices and not
expect someone else to make those choices for us.

> On the other hand, I must also say that I agree with you on the diversity
> issue. I love the diversity on AW. It makes AW, like any other community,
> a stronger/better community. However, I don't see that creating a moderated
> group or even closing it to non-citizens discourages diversity. I don't see
> censorship going on here. I don't see AW filtering out posts that criticize
> them - or I wouldn't be replying to yours right now. I'd like to see
> non-citizens on this board, but I think that AW is very receptive to changes
> that come from the community. They may yet reconsider their decision on
> that for this board. Have a little patience.

Many people feel they have had more than enough patience. Obviously some
more than others. Other people feel they are at their ends with all of
it and have decided to leave. Unfortunately many seem to be very long
term helpful people in the community. To be fair though, many are just
people tired of it, taking a break or going on with others things.

> As for the mechanism for censorship being in place, that's true. Although,
> it is important to remember that AW, unlike the real world, is an *owned*
> place. It is open to the public and can face these issues only because
> aw.com/COF chooses to let it be so. They can change it at any time and it
> is well within their rights to do so. However, as long as they choose to
> let it be a public place, they have no need or reason to censor; only to try
> to maintain a certain degree of decorum.
At least in part owned by the citizens that pay their fees, world owners
that pay fees and yearly registrations, and of course now by the stock
owners. ( I realize how much $$$ COF invested too)
Casay

Lots- Snipped

jetta lewis

Dec 21, 1999, 12:36am
John, I appreciate you agreeing with me on a couple of points. One thing you
said brought it all home. It isn't a democracy, it is a owned business. I
have pointed that out time and time again both for AW and for my world
America. AW has taken some hard knocks for some of the things they have
done. Some were well deserved and others were totally out of line. The same
applies to me. I took some pretty vicious knocks in here for deleting
property of land hogs. Some of the ppl took up to 10 lots when they knew
the rules stated only one. In a finite world, such as America, it has to be
done. Other issues were not so cut and clear, so I will assume
responsibility for all of my actions. (In retrospect, I was probably wrong
in some of my decisions, but I made my decisions, based, on information
avaliable at that time.) We will be releasing our own independent universe
sometime in January. (Just missed Christmas). Come on in and check it out.
We consider AW as a parent and are very proud of the time spent in here, and
have absolutely no intention of severing our ties to AW. Cutting edge
technology is bringing tons of inovations to Virtual Reality and we have
incorporated many new features in our universe. See ya later :o)

[View Quote]

johnny

Dec 31, 1999, 8:33pm
[View Quote] > You never had to 'wade' through anything if you didn't want to. If there
> was someone that posted in the Newsgroup that you didn't like or didn't
> want to read their opinion you didn't have to read it. There was even a
> discussion with instructions on how to filter certain people from your
> newsreader. That way you never had to read their posts. So, IMHO, that's
> a VERY mute point. On more than one occasion when a thread went off I
> would just click on " mark thread read" and go on. No biggy, not hard to
> do and a lot like the 'mute' function within AW. We do have choices in
> life of what we read and tolerate but we as individuals have the
> responsibility to take it upon ourselves to make those choices and not
> expect someone else to make those choices for us.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you here. When I said 'wading through',
I meant that I would read posts only to find out a few sentences into the
post that they were flaming someone else for not agreeing - amounting to
nothing but public 'bitching'. Yes, I know how to ignore certain people and
entire conversation threads. The point is: I shouldn't have to. If this is
a true forum, then not everyone is going to have bad things to say all of
the time. I don't want to ignore anyone. If it's about Active Worlds, then
the topic should stay centered around that. I shouldn't have to ignore an
entire thread because it is off topic. The only thing that COF has done
here is add a moderator to sift out that stuff. I don't see that it's a bad
thing to have a person who keeps the discussion from degrading into a Jerry
Springer slugfest. All well-run discussions have such a facilitator. Why
should this be any different?


> Many people feel they have had more than enough patience. Obviously, some
> more than others. Other people feel they are at their ends with all of
> it and have decided to leave. Unfortunately many seem to be very long
> term helpful people in the community. To be fair though, many are just
> people tired of it, taking a break or going on with others things.

Fine, let them. I don't mean to be terse, but the fact is, it's not their
decision to make. That decision belongs to COF and no matter what decisions
they make on any topic, they're not going to suit everyone. I'm sorry that
some people feel that they need to leave, but it's a 3D chat room for crying
out loud! It's not like we're talking about government programs or
healthcare. Let them get angry and throw a fit about something more
important.


Although,
*owned*
it
to
try

> At least in part owned by the citizens that pay their fees, world owners
> that pay fees and yearly registrations, and of course now by the stock
> owners. ( I realize how much $$$ COF invested too)

Sorry, I disagree again. Active Worlds is not 'owned' in whole or in part
by its citizens. If anything, it is 'rented'. Let's keep that in
perspective. Subscription to Active Worlds is a service. That's what is
being paid for. World Owners are a different story. They reserve the right
to make decisions about their own worlds - or to discontinue them. That's
what they pay for. As for stock owners, I don't see too many of them
complaining here. Even if they have a gripe, this is not the forum for
that.

Conversely, it should be mentioned that Active Worlds is nothing without its
citizens. If COF chooses to ignore the wishes of the citizens, it is
'shooting itself in the foot' so to speak. That gives citizens the power of
popular demand - but no legal ownership. Thinking in those terms only gives
one a false sense of power/importance.

John

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