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Apr 18, 2002, 4:28pm

If it is religion that starts or fuels (some) wars, it is man's doing, not
God's. If you don't believe in God anyway then you already know that, right?
If you do believe in God then you know that it is the interpretation that
some men have, not God himself, that makes men war. And often religion is
just an excuse to take what they want. We in the US have been told over and
over again not to blame all Muslims for the recent events in the US because
it was not the religion of Islam that brought this about but the extremist
followers of a group of men using that religion as the reason for their
idiocy. How can anyone blame religion for the lunacy of people who use death
and destruction as a means to get what they want when the majority of the
world's believers use their religion as a source of peace and comfort in
these times? The numbers of those who turn to their God dramatically
increased these last months, as they always do in times of war. Using you
theory it would follow then that in my small town of extremely diverse
faiths we would be constantly at war with one another but instead have just
passed the 75th year of celebrating Holy days together in each other's
houses of worship. This practice we have is not unique in the US either.
True followers recognize that they might have different views and are
tolerant of that and work with, not against, each other for the good of
their fellow man. The people who cause these problems are extremely
misguided and use "religion" to do whatever they want, they hide behind it.
(and what about WW2? You certainly don't mean the nazi's persecution of the
Jewish people?) Those who blame religion for the world's ills are certainly
not the ones who know and study it. They are also the minority of followers,
so please don't say that religion causes the worlds wars, but tell it like
it is and blame fanatics when "religion" is the cause at all as was the case
on September 11, 2001. It's like the fat person blaming food for their size,
not their use or misuse of it.

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Apr 18, 2002, 5:02pm

If there was no religion, how could it be interpreted in an extreme way?
Thus the source is the misuse, yes, but it also has to have it's basis,
which is the religion itself.

--Bowen--

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Apr 18, 2002, 5:57pm

Yes, I really have to agree, it is the misuse..and that is true of many
problems about anything in the world today and always. But if some misuse a
thing, none should have it even though the thing itself is not at fault?
Then we may logically do away with many things. I knew an 8 year old killed
by a drunken driver.(many have been) so lets do away with cars and alcohol
so it won't happen again. Don't worry about those (most) who use both
wisely. If I may, for simplicities sake, use my overweight person/food
analogy because it is less complicated than religion. If a person has
misused food and becomes overweight would it be in his best interest to take
away his food, or encourage him to learn how to use it as it was intended to
be used? It is meant to be a source of nourishment and sustenance, not
solely as a source of pleasure and self-gratification. If used properly, it
will be a source of pleasure anyway. It is also meant to be shared in a
peaceful and happy setting. Ok-so we take away this food that has caused all
his problems..our overweight person would certainly not gain any more weight
but his quality of life would surely suffer. My guess is though..while he
was still able, he might find something else to abuse because that has
proven to be his nature. But on the other hand, many (the majority of)
people use food as it is meant to be used and it does for them just what it'
s intended to and they have not had to make one other person suffer because
of it. Someone might say then..as may have been alluded to in a previous
post, what about the persecution of the Jewish people by nazis during WW2?
Man decided he was doing the right thing there-as he has done from the day
the world's trouble's started. Logic tells us they were not, though. No
religion, no wars? Be realistic, man will always find something. We can't
confuse religions with a few individual's interpretations of them. Logic
tells me that the majority who practice a peaceful religion and have a
relationship with a loving God may have it the right way. No man is without
fault but the righteous will always strive to get as close as he can.

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Apr 18, 2002, 6:16pm

Well, you could teach the man the right way to use the food. It is
pleasure, but you shouldn't take sole pleasure just in eating. Moderation
needs to be taken in. And the jew thing, it wasn't there fault, the nazi's
didn't like any religion, but they hated Jew's the most. I think mainly
because hitler's family was jewish.. and he hated them that much. His
grandmother was at least :P.. yeah we'd still have fighting but things like
9/11 wouldn't have happened. It's because their "god" told them it was the
right thing to do in their mind.. but I'm sure they would've found some
other excuse to do it. Some people are just mentally unstable I guess.

--Bowen--

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Apr 18, 2002, 7:15pm

As I understand it, YES they are fighting over a small strip of land.

What gets me is the nations of the world who want to push how evil Amreica
is all the time, yet they are the ones living high on the hog compared to a
large percentage of Americans. They need our help so bad, yet our people
starve in the streets.

I want a Save the American Childrens Fund!

If the world wants our help all the time, then by the Gods lets get our
nation back on track so we can do it. But to get us on track we are going to
have to stop helping every little podunk country on the planet for a few
years. And you know that aint gonna happen.

And while I am on the political subject, take these "possessions" of the US,
whose people enjoy every benifit of being a US citizen, yet pay not one cent
in taxes to keep our nation afloat. And give them a choice. Becomes states
NOW, or leave our protection. I am sick on people gettign one over on us.

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Apr 18, 2002, 7:18pm

Your thoughts mirror mine, and funny enough the movie Dogma that so many
religious leaders in America tried to get banned.

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Apr 18, 2002, 8:45pm

I guess I have to clear myself a bit,I am not blaming any gods for the
wars,no,but the people who do it in the name of their gods.How could I blame
the wars on something I do not feel excist?I am just trying to say that
religions are scary,because they promise you eternal life if you do this and
that.Why cannot people just accept the fact that once we die we are dead,it
is is over.I just think it is sad that wars and cruelties are made in the
name of a religion,therefore I belive that if no religions would excist
atleast that could not be used as a reason for doing unhuman
things.Nazis,yes it is not generally considered as a religion,but it can be
compared to one,,and the people nazis mostly hated were jews (that is a
religion),so if no religions would excist how would the naziis have picked
their victims?It just scares the shit out of me when people take for granted
that something is right or wrong just because a religion,law or tradition
says so.I wish people would would start questioning things more instead of
taking everything for granted.
I agree that no religion is meant to be cruel.But it still seems the best
way to brainwash people into doing irrational things.Palestinainas and jews
are not actually fighting because they hate eachother personally,but because
their leaders has thought them to hate eachother because the other part
belive in a different god.Would it not be logically for them to live side by
side in the same area? would not the quality of their lives be better if
they not had the burden of religion?Now they are just fighting and fighting
..They are told it is glorious to die in a terrorist attack and they will get
a "good" position in their heaven.Everything this do not fit into my sense
of logic.
The saddest part is when religion becomes law,I think religion should be
something personal between you and your god.Many people do not actually
think of it how much the law of the "western world" also is infected by
christianity.Small irritating things we have written in our laws that are
not based on logic but on what some guy has said god knows how long ago ,and
we still just consider it right without questioning it.Example: When we go
swimming we have to use a bathingsuite or we might get arrested.Why? I mean
it has no logical reason,it is not warmer to swim nor it is more
hygienic.Yes,because sometimes long ago someone decided that we ought to be
ashamed of our body,and they choosed to which parts also..just imagine if we
instead would have to cover up our noses.Yes sounds funny,but if it had been
decided a long time ago that we ought to do it,everyone would walk around
with their noses covered up without questioning it.

Drac


carolann <carolannh at charter.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3cbf104f$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> If it is religion that starts or fuels (some) wars, it is man's doing, not
> God's. If you don't believe in God anyway then you already know that,
right?
> If you do believe in God then you know that it is the interpretation that
> some men have, not God himself, that makes men war. And often religion is
> just an excuse to take what they want. We in the US have been told over
and
> over again not to blame all Muslims for the recent events in the US
because
> it was not the religion of Islam that brought this about but the extremist
> followers of a group of men using that religion as the reason for their
> idiocy. How can anyone blame religion for the lunacy of people who use
death
> and destruction as a means to get what they want when the majority of the
> world's believers use their religion as a source of peace and comfort in
> these times? The numbers of those who turn to their God dramatically
> increased these last months, as they always do in times of war. Using you
> theory it would follow then that in my small town of extremely diverse
> faiths we would be constantly at war with one another but instead have
just
> passed the 75th year of celebrating Holy days together in each other's
> houses of worship. This practice we have is not unique in the US either.
> True followers recognize that they might have different views and are
> tolerant of that and work with, not against, each other for the good of
> their fellow man. The people who cause these problems are extremely
> misguided and use "religion" to do whatever they want, they hide behind
it.
> (and what about WW2? You certainly don't mean the nazi's persecution of
the
> Jewish people?) Those who blame religion for the world's ills are
certainly
> not the ones who know and study it. They are also the minority of
followers,
> so please don't say that religion causes the worlds wars, but tell it like
> it is and blame fanatics when "religion" is the cause at all as was the
case
> on September 11, 2001. It's like the fat person blaming food for their
size,
> not their use or misuse of it.
>
[View Quote]

Apr 18, 2002, 11:59pm

Well said. (standing ovation and nodding mah head veheamently) ~ ;-"D


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Apr 19, 2002, 12:21am

I think I understood what you meant and I didn't take offense to it because
I know you to be a decent man though our views on religion are far
different. I sure wouldn't debate why I know (and I am not being
disrespectful to other views here, it's just my own personal viewpoint) that
God is real, but would sure talk with you one on one about it anytime. It's
not a "feeling" or a "hope" or a "I'm pretty sure", it just IS as sure as I
know that (presently at least) my blood is flowing through my veins, yet I
can't see it. Simplistic yes, won't hold up for comparison but that's not
for this place. My main point, and I can't imagine an argument against it,
is man will war as long as there is more than one still alive.and you know
he will, if not about religion then about whatever there can be two opinions
about. One reason religion is an easy target is because it is so important
to people but take it away and there won't be any less war. At least
religion puts guidelines on some things, like murder, thievery, even doing
bad things to your fellow man, and that has kept some people going on the
right path. The others.would do their evil because of, in spite of, or even
if there were nothing like religion in the world. Just like you think some
people need the promise of an afterlife to keep them going here on earth, so
do some people need an excuse for their evil deeds, and what better excuse
than "God told me to do it"? You know drugs and money and even sex cause a
great deal of evil to happen in the world, all over, every day, in everyone'
s neighborhood, yet everyone knows they have a viable place when used as
they should be so it's just when they are used in a criminal way that they
are looked down upon. We don't say the world would be a better place without
sex (we wouldn't be around to pat each other on the back for getting rid of
it in the next century anyway), or money or drugs (usually but not always in
the form of medicine), so why, of all things that can be used in the name of
evil, is religion the one thing we should do away with entirely? And we can
all be comforted by our faith if we have it, even in a prison cell.not so of
the other three. (well, I HAVE heard stories...)

[View Quote]

Apr 19, 2002, 2:26am

Yes I think we could have an intersting conversation some day.I am sure that
we wont agree on anything tho.I guess we wish the same things pretty much
although we have different reasons for beliving in what is right or wrong.
A question I have been wondering over tho,and I do not mean to ask you
personally this,but in general,,but since you brought it up:) When people
say they know God excist,is that not based on what they have been told? I
cannot imagine that an indian in the rainforrest that has never seen a white
man,suddendly gets an aha experience like: I suddenly realized that God
created the world,he created the man and out of his ribbon the woman.From
now on I am not allowed to work on a Sunday and I have to start wearing
clothes,My point with this is,are people who has never heard of God (as
christian ppl know him) automatically condemed to hell?Another thing I have
problems with is,how can anyone in modern sociaty actually belive the things
said in the bible that are against any common sence,like this Noa dude who
built a boat and took 2 of each animals with him and where did all the water
come from?
Finally one thing I do not understand is; catholics,ortodox,lutheran,jehovas
witness,amish etc all belive in the same god,but yet their belives varies a
lot.I am just wondering who has read the bible right,I guess it depends on
whom you ask.So if amish people are right that it is against the bible to
have buttons on your clothes,does it make all other christian ppl
wrong?.Does not some groups allow several wifes when most allow only
one?Jehovas witness do not celebrate birthdays or christmas.What I am trying
to say is,if something is said in the bible,should it not be followed and
not just take parts of it that suites oneself best?Earlier a woman could not
become a priest,but the pressurees of equality between sexes has made it so
that we have female priests here now.What does the bible actually say about
it,it say yes or no? If it say no,but we have changed that rule,is it ok to
also change other guidelines so that they fit our needs,like you shall not
steal,if we feel it is neccesary for us to steal.

Drac

carolann <carolannh at charter.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3cbf7f17 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> I think I understood what you meant and I didn't take offense to it
because
> I know you to be a decent man though our views on religion are far
> different. I sure wouldn't debate why I know (and I am not being
> disrespectful to other views here, it's just my own personal viewpoint)
that
> God is real, but would sure talk with you one on one about it anytime.
It's
> not a "feeling" or a "hope" or a "I'm pretty sure", it just IS as sure as
I
> know that (presently at least) my blood is flowing through my veins, yet I
> can't see it. Simplistic yes, won't hold up for comparison but that's not
> for this place. My main point, and I can't imagine an argument against it,
> is man will war as long as there is more than one still alive.and you know
> he will, if not about religion then about whatever there can be two
opinions
> about. One reason religion is an easy target is because it is so important
> to people but take it away and there won't be any less war. At least
> religion puts guidelines on some things, like murder, thievery, even doing
> bad things to your fellow man, and that has kept some people going on the
> right path. The others.would do their evil because of, in spite of, or
even
> if there were nothing like religion in the world. Just like you think some
> people need the promise of an afterlife to keep them going here on earth,
so
> do some people need an excuse for their evil deeds, and what better excuse
> than "God told me to do it"? You know drugs and money and even sex cause a
> great deal of evil to happen in the world, all over, every day, in
everyone'
> s neighborhood, yet everyone knows they have a viable place when used as
> they should be so it's just when they are used in a criminal way that they
> are looked down upon. We don't say the world would be a better place
without
> sex (we wouldn't be around to pat each other on the back for getting rid
of
> it in the next century anyway), or money or drugs (usually but not always
in
> the form of medicine), so why, of all things that can be used in the name
of
> evil, is religion the one thing we should do away with entirely? And we
can
> all be comforted by our faith if we have it, even in a prison cell.not so
of
> the other three. (well, I HAVE heard stories...)
>
[View Quote]

Apr 19, 2002, 4:46am

I will respond in private email..and am saying that so that it doesn't
appear that I don't know how to answer, I sure do :-) and will gladly share
with anyone. But my turn in the pulpit is over.
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Apr 20, 2002, 2:05am

[View Quote] Land is a lot like sex or air .... you only realise how important it is when
you dont have any.

MissB

Apr 20, 2002, 2:18am

There's a lot of places we could move either side to, they're just bickering
over a small strip of land. The world's a big place.

--Bowen--

Have $3... want a website?
http://www.smartpenguin.com/affiliate.php?id=12


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Apr 20, 2002, 3:40pm

Its the "holy land" to either side...or so i hear

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
A message from Zeo Toxion
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Apr 20, 2002, 6:40pm

ooo ahh, It's the holy land to about 40 other religions the exist too. All
I see is those 2 fighting about it because they have nothing better to do.
Jeez, pull something like, my messiah's spirit traveled through here during
it's eternal life, I proclaim this my new holy land.. and do it where no one
else is. What makes it a holy land anyways? Jeez who cares, it's just a
place to live, just go visit it for god sakes if you can't come to an
agreement on who should own it.

--Bowen--

Have $3... want a website?
http://www.smartpenguin.com/affiliate.php?id=12


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Apr 20, 2002, 7:28pm

Look they don't think about these kinds of things the way we do. Religious
beliefs or any other beliefs can drive a person to do anything if they
believe its the right thign to do. Who knows maybe they think jesus was born
there or something. Its not somethign i want to get into becuase i really
cant do anything about it.

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
A message from Zeo Toxion
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[View Quote]

Apr 20, 2002, 7:56pm

LoL Jesus was born around that area ;). They were defending the Church of
the Nativity a couple of weeks ago. Supposedly that's where he was born.
They're just a little over zealous about things.

--Bowen--

Have $3... want a website?
http://www.smartpenguin.com/affiliate.php?id=12


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