Reflections (Wishlist)

Reflections // Wishlist

1  2  |  

calhoun

Jul 20, 2003, 5:05pm
it would be very easy to create reflections in AW without needing Ray
Tracing, by creating a command where when an object is placed on the surface
of an object it will reflect (or when an avatar walks over the surface of
the object it reflects) like:

create reflection

it would just work with 3D Axis Rotation to create a reflection, now someone
has to check this idea out and at least TRY to put it into the AW Engine


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`
end

calhoun

Jul 20, 2003, 5:06pm
I forgot to mention i was attaching a picture showing how its possible
currently (that is an avatar object), and how it could be done in the
future?
[View Quote]

john

Jul 20, 2003, 5:16pm
I was playing Elite Force today (Star Trek: Elite Force) and in Ensign
Munro's (mine) quaters there was a mirror, a perfect reflection! For a
minute I thought there was someone else there!!!

~John

[View Quote]

dlp anne

Jul 20, 2003, 6:32pm
That is where I 1st saw a perfect reflection, I was like wow that is good
and told AW a year ago about it, not sure if they looked into it or not yet.



[View Quote]

dlp anne

Jul 20, 2003, 6:38pm
There is also another mirror in that game in the federation part of
scavenger level where you dress up like one of them to walk around freely
just to get the info you need and leave.
That mirror is the most realistic one I ever saw, you can walk by it, jump,
run, turn and the reflection of yourself moves like you 100%



[View Quote]

ferruccio

Jul 20, 2003, 6:39pm
It is already possible to add reflections, but they haven't been added
because not everyone has a super fast computer. It would create lots of lag
as well.

dlp anne

Jul 20, 2003, 7:06pm
Well they should add it and put it optional in the browser settings to show
them or not.
Why should AW be slowed down and kept behind just to keep people that don't
upgrade there computers happy?
All you really need is a 350 MHz CPU and about 128 MB ram and a good video
card like any of the G Force cards.

Here is a picture of that mirror from that star trek game and I don't lag
near or around it at all.


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`
end

john

Jul 20, 2003, 8:56pm
Yeh

~John

[View Quote]

crazy pills

Jul 21, 2003, 2:54am
yes also itd be easy and hey aw has coronas trust me nothign creates mroe
lag than coronas
[View Quote]

bowen

Jul 21, 2003, 3:50am
[View Quote] SWAT3 has had reflections like this for a _long_ time.

--
--Bowen--

No of SETI units returned: 41
Processing time: 31 days, 9 hours.
(Total hours: 753)
www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

ferruccio

Jul 21, 2003, 7:31am
I wouldn't really call that a reflection, it works *like* a reflection, but
a more real reflection (what you want) would be the car reflections from
racing games, or the reflection off of the plastic curtains in splinter
cell. The type of reflection you showed in the picture simply re-created
the environment on the other side of the surface. If we were to make
reflections in AW, it would have to be a certain texture to reflect. like
"create texture stone4, reflect texture=silvmetal" which would make the
object have the texture stone4, but have it reflect the texture silvmetal.

bowen

Jul 21, 2003, 7:45am
[View Quote] Yes, a true reflection is different in a sense that these reflections
are just a reversed environment with like a "hole" in the wall. More
likely it's the exact environment that's needed to produce the
reflection duplicated somewhere else on the map that's got a camera in
it, and when characters come near it, they're drawn into the reversed
environment as well (reversed too). Something along those lines.
Certainly the easy to way to do it.

--
--Bowen--

No of SETI units returned: 41
Processing time: 31 days, 9 hours.
(Total hours: 753)
www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

kah

Jul 21, 2003, 9:00am
"ferruccio" <startrek3 at earthlink.net> wrote in
news:3f1bb2d4 at server1.Activeworlds.com:

> I wouldn't really call that a reflection, it works *like* a
> reflection, but a more real reflection (what you want) would be the
> car reflections from racing games, or the reflection off of the
> plastic curtains in splinter cell. The type of reflection you showed
> in the picture simply re-created the environment on the other side of
> the surface. If we were to make reflections in AW, it would have to
> be a certain texture to reflect. like "create texture stone4, reflect
> texture=silvmetal" which would make the object have the texture
> stone4, but have it reflect the texture silvmetal.

The reflections in racing games are really fake. Uses a technique called
environment mapping, which applies a special shader texture over the
texture of a car, rotating/panning it as the camera changes the angle. Not
real mirroring at all, just an illusion.

The modern way of doing mirrors is with stencil buffers (would probably
work best in AW as using the two scenes technique would lag and create
problems in AW's non-compiled worlds), but not all cards support it.

They could add environment mapping, though, as that creates no problems.

KAH

codewarrior

Jul 21, 2003, 10:51am
>More
> likely it's the exact environment that's needed to produce the
> reflection duplicated somewhere else on the map that's got a camera in
> it, and when characters come near it, they're drawn into the reversed
> environment as well (reversed too). Something along those lines.
> Certainly the easy to way to do it.

There's no need to duplicate the environment when the environment
is already there.

Generally, a camera is simply placed exactly where the mirror is, a small
image rendered from that viewpoint every once in a while, then it's flipped
left to right by just mapping the UV coords so the picture comes out
reversed.

The camera takes one image for each person who sees it, in a direction
that is away from the perpendicular in the opposite direction to the users
viewpoint, so that it looks like you are seeing things just as a mirror
would
show them. It's very similar to how a 'facer' works... always pointing
towards you, but in this case it is always pointing away from you by
as much as you are not facing the mirror directly.

dlp anne

Jul 21, 2003, 5:55pm
I actually like the environment mapping better though, but as long as AW
makes it look good and real looking I will be happy lol



[View Quote]

kah

Jul 21, 2003, 8:17pm
"dlp anne" <anne at dreamlandpark.com> wrote in
news:3f1c451d at server1.Activeworlds.com:

> I actually like the environment mapping better though, but as long as
> AW makes it look good and real looking I will be happy lol

It'll be useless for mirrors, though.

KAH

dlp anne

Jul 21, 2003, 9:17pm
hmm ok.
stencil buffers will do both reflections and mirrors?



[View Quote]

codewarrior

Jul 21, 2003, 9:45pm
There is a good article at:

http://www.sgi.com/software/opengl/advanced96/node28.html

on how to create a mirror effect with a 3D graphics engine.

As you can see from this article, a stencil buffer is merely a way to mask
out the mirror portion of the main scene so that something else (like a
mirror) can be drawn into it without interfering with other parts of the
scene.

A stencil buffer in no way prevents you from having to render the scene
twice as you imply.

There is no way to get around having to draw the scene from the viewpoint
of each mirror you wish to have in your scene, but since the mirrors could
be limited to using a 128x128 texture and they do not have to be updated
as often as the main image, there is no reason that it has to create lag.

It is also very easy to detect (since a mirrors position and field of view
are
fixed) when the mirrors image doesn't need to be updated at all.

Mirrors reflecting other mirrors handle themselves automatically. after one
or two frames, each mirror will naturally display the last frame displayed
by the other mirrors.

[View Quote]

codewarrior

Jul 21, 2003, 9:54pm
A more accurate description of what I was trying to say

--

The basic steps to calculate the image from the vantage point of the mirror
are:


1.. draw the mirror polygon, setting the stencil buffer to 1.
2.. compute the angle between the viewer and the mirror.
3.. compute the angle of the reflected ray and the viewer
4.. move the viewing position to a point along the reflected ray
5.. draw the scene from the viewpoint along the reflected ray
6.. set the stencil test function to draw where the stencil value is not
equal to 1
7.. move the viewpoint back to the eye position and draw the scene again
> The camera takes one image for each person who sees it, in a direction
> that is away from the perpendicular in the opposite direction to the users
> viewpoint, so that it looks like you are seeing things just as a mirror
> would
> show them. It's very similar to how a 'facer' works... always pointing
> towards you, but in this case it is always pointing away from you by
> as much as you are not facing the mirror directly.
>
>

bowen

Jul 21, 2003, 10:13pm
[View Quote] That step will cause errors itself. Not everyone can support stencil
buffers.

--
--Bowen--

No of SETI units returned: 41
Processing time: 31 days, 9 hours.
(Total hours: 753)
www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

codewarrior

Jul 21, 2003, 10:21pm
My apologies.

It's a description of a procedure.. not a .exe file

And don't type it in and expect it to work either. It's not real source
code.

[View Quote]

bowen

Jul 21, 2003, 10:25pm
[View Quote] And the procedure is flawed. It's like "well I'll use my chainsaw to
perform brain surgery." Sure, you could, but it might not work.

--
--Bowen--

No of SETI units returned: 41
Processing time: 31 days, 9 hours.
(Total hours: 753)
www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

codewarrior

Jul 21, 2003, 10:28pm
OK.. welll I suppose I should have cited the source.. but you can
go tell them their procedure "might not work"...

http://www.sgi.com/software/opengl/advanced96/node28.html

They are all n00bs there... go easy on em Bowen.. I shudder
when I think of how they will tremble at your wrath.

[View Quote]

bowen

Jul 21, 2003, 10:30pm
[View Quote] I'm still trying to think of how you came to this conclusion. Even KAH
himself stated not everyone has a graphical card to support stencil
buffers. Are you missing _that_ point? Sure, it works, yeah, but only
if your _card_ supports it. No card, no stencil buffer, no reflection.

--
--Bowen--

No of SETI units returned: 41
Processing time: 31 days, 9 hours.
(Total hours: 753)
www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

codewarrior

Jul 21, 2003, 10:52pm
The main point here is that if you want mirrors you need to render the
scene multiple times.

KAH also stated that stencil buffers would magically allow for reflections
without drawing the scene a second time, but they won't.

There are lots of ways to get around not having a "stencil buffer", but
since a stencil buffer (or equivalent) is an attribute of the graphics API
you are using and not of your hardware it is up to the driver to simulate
it if you have lame hardware that doesn't have the ability to make
them work more efficiently.

In DirectX you don't need stencil buffers because you can have as
many buffers as you wish, any buffer can be combined with any other
buffer in ways that make stencil buffers look like Flintstones technology,
and in fact you don't even need to use a stencil since you can simply
render into one buffer, and then use it as a texture map when you
draw the mirror.

So the "no card no stencil buffer" thing is a RED HERRING

So.. reflections require multiple scene renders with or without a
stencil buffer.

And.. if you are willing to draw the scene a second time from
the viewpoint of the mirror, you can have a nice mirror whether
the person has stencil buffers or not.

[View Quote]

bowen

Jul 21, 2003, 10:58pm
[View Quote] The link you provided was for stencil buffering, OpenGL stencil
buffering at that. Otherwise, you basically restated exactly what I
said in one of it's many incarnations. Sure, you can put the scene into
a buffer... but I was speaking from a strictly low level sort of thing.
Changing buffers around takes a lot more work.

I guess, what I was trying to get at, was something that could be done
regardless of the API you're using. Some graphics cards don't even
support OpenGL.. don't forget about them either.. if they do it's not
too well.

--
--Bowen--

No of SETI units returned: 41
Processing time: 31 days, 9 hours.
(Total hours: 753)
www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

codewarrior

Jul 21, 2003, 11:10pm
The nasty thing about reflections is not how to render them, but what they
would do to the current AW 'one viewpoint' model.

Right now, the engine has developed over a long time to be efficient about
what objects and textures to load based on the assumption that it only needs
to know what is near the viewer.

Introducing reflections breaks that assumption in a big way, and I suspect
that assumption is entrenched pretty deeply in the code.

Maybe an easy way to get around that is to limit what a mirror sees to a
fixed distance, and then make sure you always have that much 'stuff' from
in front of the mirror at all times. Putting many mirrors around your world
could lead to a lot of problems though.

Most game engines don't need to worry much about that because they
load all of the geometry and textures for a given area ahead of time.

[View Quote]

codewarrior

Jul 22, 2003, 12:09am
> I guess, what I was trying to get at, was something that could be done
> regardless of the API you're using. Some graphics cards don't even
> support OpenGL.. don't forget about them either.. if they do it's not
> too well.

The technique of drawing the scene from multiple viewpoints to generate
reflections *is* something that can be done regardless of the API you
are using, and the stencil buffers, lack of them, presence of them,
use of OpenGL vs. Direct X are all RED HERRINGS.

And as Anne so eloquently said in another thread, I'm sick of being held
back by people with lame hardware. If your card doesn't support OpenGL
or DirectX, then AW is not for you.

Now I'm finished belabouring the point with you... you can have the last
word.

chris cat

Aug 14, 2003, 3:59am
[View Quote] AW would need a big budget for that kind of engine tech :P

ferruccio

Aug 14, 2003, 4:27am
not really, reflections area already supported by rw3, they just aren't
enabled because of some lag issues

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