Roland: Automatic Animation is Unrealistic! (Wishlist)

Roland: Automatic Animation is Unrealistic! // Wishlist

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marvin

Jun 14, 1998, 1:28pm
I used Rolands name in the subject in hopes of it drawing his attention.
Dirty trick I guess.

Since day one, when we got the wonderful new feature of avatar animation
I quickly realized there was something wrong with it. There is alot of
animation now, many man hours went into its development, but for me it
was a big waste. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT AT ALL! If you enable it
you get animation all right, but it is like trying to get a drink from a
fire hose! The animation buttons are fantastic, but they are rendered
useless because no one can tell you clicked one. All the involuntary
animation is perfect (walking, flapping, blinking...) and should always
be happening when animation is enabled. I can even think of many more
involuntary animations that would make AW more natural and realistic.
The animations the buttons generate are great also, BUT ONLY IF A USER
HAS DECIDED TO EXIBIT THAT BUTTONS BEHAVIOR AND HAS CLICKED THE
BUTTON!!!!!!!!! Now if some users want to have a crowd of avatars
checking their watches and streching and dancing, etc. at random then I
guess they should be able to set their browser to see the show.

I think most people would set the browser to a setting that made the
button animations only happen when users clicked them and only the
involuntary animations happened on their own. This has bothered me for a
long time now. I have tried to get the idea across many times in the
past but never in here. In fact it is the main reason I decided to try
the NGs.

Please give your feedback on this issue, even if Roland is too busy or
not intrested, I would like to see what you guys think. I think the more
realistic AW becomes the more people will use and appreciate it. This
sounds like a very small detail, but it is realy a hole in the design
that hurts realism that has never been addressed. I have kept my
animation turned off since forever. I wish I could watch the birds flap
by and see Butch strut, but I refuse to do so with all that insain
spastic automatic crap happening everywhere I go.

I have many ideas about new involuntary animations all based on a moving
avatar (except one) but I want to see if the subject is relevant.

Sorry if this offended anyone that created the seqs. :) Didn't mean
to.

Later

zer0 <·><·>

technozeus

Jun 14, 1998, 2:57pm
First, I would just like to address your first line, where you mention the
use of Roland's name in the subject to get his attention. I doubt you meant
anything bad by it, but I think it would be pretty understandable if Roland
got his feelings hurt by the implication that he's not paying enough
attention to this newsgroup to notice messages that don't have his name in
the subject field. If I was in his position, I would find it mildly
offensive at the very least. By the way Roland, I hope you don't take
offense to my stating my opinion about how you "might" feel about something,
but I figured if it made you feel bad you probably would be reluctant to say
so since you're such a nice guy. All that said, I'll get to my point now...

I'm not sure weather or not I understand you correctly. If you are saying
that the actions on the buttons are happening on their own, I haven't
noticed it. If you are saying that there is too much variety to the things
avatars do while they are "waiting", that would depend on which avatars you
use, and more to the point, which sequences are assigned to them. These
things are different for each world, to I guess I have to assume that either
you're asking people who make sequences for avatars to change their idea of
what people want to see, or that you are suggesting some change to the
avatar sets made available by COF to world owners. If this last one is the
case, I would like to suggest that if you (or anyone reading this) know of
or can make, an alternative set of sequences for those sets of avatars, the
altenrative sequence could be sent (with the creator's permission of course)
to COF so that they could consider making it available as an alternative to
the default sequence sets for those avatars.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

marvin

Jun 15, 1998, 4:58am
Cool... I was not sure how often Roland frequented the WishList NG...

About Automatic Animation...

As I stated, I always keep animation disabled. About the only time I
ever enable it now is to show someone that has never seen AW what it is.
Sometimes then I enable it. Everytime I ever had it enabled it was just
like when the feature was first introduced. If you have it turned on and
an avatar is standing there minding its own business, in a minute the
avatar will be doing one of the animation sequences. It will happen with
out any user input. Sort of like a screen saver. This is unrealistic. I
would much prefer that every single animation sequence I witness was
generated by a human being at the other side of that avatar. Only
animation I will accept as "Automatic" are the ones I called involuntary
(walking, flapping, blinking). I think most people would pick animation
to actually mean something instead of the way it is now. If you see an
avatar "WAVE" it would be nice to know it was a real wave. If you see
one look at it's watch, you can expect the wearer to say something like
"I have to go it is getting late!". See what I mean?

As far as I know the random generated out of control animations happen
for any avatar that has animation all the time without the user doing
anything to make them happen. Their button clicks for a given animation
sequence is just added to the storm of automatic ones. Right? Now you
make me wonder if I have had animation turned off so long it has been
improved/corrected and I am way out in left field!

I will go immediately to enable it and see if I am still right. Maybe I
will get lucky and it is different and I can leave it on finally!

:)

zer0

[View Quote]

dthknight

Jun 15, 1998, 3:41pm
The avatars (at least Butch, who I use and have "observed" a fair
amount) don't do the action buttons while they are just sitting there -
or at least they shouldn't. Butch doesn't begin leaping up doing his
happy.seq randomly - you have to make him do it. Birde, however, does
sometimes 'flap' (flap.seq) by himself - although I personally don't
mind that. You're not playing left field... not THAT far out... more
like a center fielder drifting left a bit to catch a fly ball :)

[View Quote] --
Dthknight - dthknight at earthlink.net - ICQ: 2603180
Dthknight Central: AW 1875N 2225W
Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~dthknight/

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." -
Albert Einstein

marvin

Jun 16, 1998, 12:10am
No... as the Talkin Heads put it "Same as it ever was..." :(

zer0

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technozeus

Jun 17, 1998, 8:42am
I think Dthknight is right, that they don't do the stuff on the buttons
unless you push the button... Looking at your watch is a common action for
some avatars that are standing around. I figure the person that made the
sequence probably intended it to look like the avatar was getting bored
because nobody was moving it... but I don't actually know.

Btw, Dthknight.... About that quote you keep on the end of each post you
make... Would that imply that anyone who has ever tried anything new, has
made a mistake? (Or in short.. that it's a mistake to try anything new?)

:·)

TechnoZeus


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builderz

Jun 17, 1998, 12:42pm
I don't know if this was already implied before, but here is my two cents on this:
Yes, I use the Butch avatar almost all the time (I dunno, I just liked him the first
time I saw him and used him ever since). When you press one of the buttons, say
"Wave," Butch usually finishes the "automatic" actions first, and than does the
command that you pressed (or if he did not, try it once more). And you are right,
the Birde/Birdie avatar does "recycle" .SEQ files by use the flap.seq without
pressing the button. What all this reminds me of it like when you are playing a
video game (wiether it be console or on the computer) and you do not do anything for
a while, the character gets bored and does something to "notify" or "wake-up" the
player. Well, do we actually do this in real life when we are bored? A child (I do
not mean to stereotype here, I'm just using this as an example) might make and throw
a paper airplane when they are bored or just waiting around. Is it so unrealistic?
Just think what you might do when you are bored or tired and see how realistic it
is. Since the whole post is mainly about realistic(s), just carefully examine the
avatars and their animations, and see if, even distantly, you can somehow relate to
them/their action(s) in real life. In short, compare yourself to the animation and
than see how unrealistic it is.

-Builderz

[View Quote] > The avatars (at least Butch, who I use and have "observed" a fair
> amount) don't do the action buttons while they are just sitting there -
> or at least they shouldn't. Butch doesn't begin leaping up doing his
> happy.seq randomly - you have to make him do it. Birde, however, does
> sometimes 'flap' (flap.seq) by himself - although I personally don't
> mind that. You're not playing left field... not THAT far out... more
> like a center fielder drifting left a bit to catch a fly ball :)
>
[View Quote]

dthknight

Jun 17, 1998, 3:36pm
stop making an ass out of u and me, TZ :)

[View Quote] --
Dthknight - dthknight at earthlink.net - ICQ: 2603180
Dthknight Central: AW 1875N 2225W
Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~dthknight/

"The best way to predict the future is to invent it." - Alan Kay

leo mauk

Jun 17, 1998, 4:00pm
[View Quote] Naaaa, just that you can expect to make a few mistakes when trying
anything new...:) actually mistakes are how you learn.....:) or
should i say, if you don't make the same mistakes twice, then your
learning.....hehehehhe sheeeesh...i can see this going nowhere quick.
LOL hehehehe

grover

Jun 17, 1998, 8:43pm
The automatic movement cycles once every time period, which is at 60 seconds. If, during
that time period, you walk, or press one of the action buttons, the movements saved in
that button override the automatic motion. Some of the seqs have been optimized with
limbcvrt.exe (long lost), so as not to override others parts without cause- this is why
you can press the "wave" button, and wave while caldius is lying down, for example. But
once that motion is over, the wait motion begins again where it left off. If we'd make
custom seqs, and sit with a stopwatch timing it, i'm sure we could nail down the exact
protocol and times ;-)

grover

[View Quote] > I don't know if this was already implied before, but here is my two cents on this:
> Yes, I use the Butch avatar almost all the time (I dunno, I just liked him the first
> time I saw him and used him ever since). When you press one of the buttons, say
> "Wave," Butch usually finishes the "automatic" actions first, and than does the
> command that you pressed (or if he did not, try it once more). And you are right,
> the Birde/Birdie avatar does "recycle" .SEQ files by use the flap.seq without
> pressing the button. What all this reminds me of it like when you are playing a
> video game (wiether it be console or on the computer) and you do not do anything for
> a while, the character gets bored and does something to "notify" or "wake-up" the
> player. Well, do we actually do this in real life when we are bored? A child (I do
> not mean to stereotype here, I'm just using this as an example) might make and throw
> a paper airplane when they are bored or just waiting around. Is it so unrealistic?
> Just think what you might do when you are bored or tired and see how realistic it
> is. Since the whole post is mainly about realistic(s), just carefully examine the
> avatars and their animations, and see if, even distantly, you can somehow relate to
> them/their action(s) in real life. In short, compare yourself to the animation and
> than see how unrealistic it is.
>
> -Builderz
>
[View Quote]

--
_______________________________________________________________
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steve at synergycorp.com `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ). `-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
Custom Objects and Avatars! _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
___________________________(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'__________

marvin

Jun 18, 1998, 1:02am
No.. it is just like I said it was... Don't want anything automated
except involuntary... I'm keeping it disabled forever.

zer0


[View Quote] > Naaaa, just that you can expect to make a few mistakes when trying
> anything new...:) actually mistakes are how you learn.....:) or
> should i say, if you don't make the same mistakes twice, then your
> learning.....hehehehhe sheeeesh...i can see this going nowhere quick.
> LOL hehehehe

marvin

Jun 18, 1998, 1:04am
It's unrealistic.

zer0

[View Quote]

marvin

Jun 18, 1998, 1:13am
Don't like it, don't want it, won't use it. Parked avatar should only
exibit actions triggered by the user (except for the involuntary blink).
If you like all the extra fine, but give me a way to separate it from
the real user actions.

zer0

[View Quote]

technozeus

Jun 18, 1998, 1:56am
Hey.. I didn't assume anything... Just asked about a possible implication.
:)

TezhnoZeus

[View Quote]

technozeus

Jun 18, 1998, 2:27am
Sorry Marvin. I kind of side tracked things a bit. Just couldn't resist
commenting on that Einstein quote any longer. It was just TOO tempting.
:·) By the way BB, it's nice to learn from your mistakes, but I would
rather get what I can right the first time... Albert Einstein was pretty
insightful, but I think he missed the mark just a bit on that one. I think
maybe he should have said "Anyone who has never made a mistake is either
very lucky, very lazy, or VERY young." Hehehe.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

technozeus

Jun 18, 1998, 3:52am
Okay. I have a few of things that may actually be helpful Marvin, but first
I would like to say that I think you are reading people wrong, or maybe I'm
reading you wrong, because you are comming off as rude and hostile to people
who are only trying to be helpful in anylizing the situation. I don't mean
that to insult you. Just to let you know that we mean well... in case that
wasn't obvious. After all, this is about perception and each of us has a
unique view of the world. Okay, here goes...

First, I would like to say that it would be nice to have the option "Show
Avatar Animations" split into two separate options named "Show Explicit
Avatar Animations" and "Show Implied Avatar Animations" or something on that
line, so we could turn the button actions on and off separate from the
involuntary actions. This would allow a person to have a little more
control over avatar animations on their computer.

Second, I would like to mention that although I tried it (as a test) and
failed, I still think it "should" be possible to eliminate the involuntary
movements by editing the avatars.dat file for that world. What I tried was
to delete the section from beginimp to endimp for each avatar, but it's
possible I may have missed an opening beginimp, or made some similar
mistake, or that perhaps I should have only deleted what was "between" them.
If you want to try it, do so at your own risk... but it might work.

Last, I would like to mention a possibility that I didn't test, and that
would be to replace the SEQ files that are used for the implied actions,
with copies of a SEQ file that does little or nothing. Again, if you want
to try it, do so at your own risk. Personally I would "rather" see the
option split so you can disable either implied actions, or explicit actions,
or both... but for anyone who can't wait that long, there's a few things you
can try.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

dthknight

Jun 18, 1998, 3:07pm
well there are 4 quotes that rotate through a signature change
program... and yes you did assume... I think you'll like the one that
happened to appear at the bottom of THIS post, though :)

[View Quote] --
Dthknight - dthknight at earthlink.net - ICQ: 2603180
Dthknight Central: AW 1875N 2225W
Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~dthknight/

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Albert
Einstein

grover

Jun 18, 1998, 7:40pm
imho, avatars standing straight at attention would be even more unrealistic. As it is,
only a few avatars move in unison. You may not like the "wait" routines, but it's
amazing how much they add to what would otherwise be a nearly static scene!
btw, my last post wasn't a suggestion, it was a statement of what is existing right
now!

grover

[View Quote] > It's unrealistic.
>
> zer0
>
[View Quote]

--
_______________________________________________________________
http://www.grovers.com/ ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-.__
steve at synergycorp.com `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ). `-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
Custom Objects and Avatars! _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
___________________________(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'__________

technozeus

Jun 18, 1998, 10:00pm
Actually, I realized that you have different signatures. I just worded it
badly. Only trying to be funny anyway. Wasn't anything important. :·)

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

marvin

Jun 21, 1998, 6:11pm
Actually I am rude and stubborn in RL also (wife says so all the time).
Sort of old and set in my ways too. :)

zer0

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