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Dec 12, 2002, 4:20pm

Having read most of the thread about Linden I must express my surprise.
Best Invention of 2002? It seems to me that the only thing Linden has
invented is some good PR. Is there anyone in here that has seen anything 3D
they have done? I can make a whole bunch of screenshots too if thats all it
takes. They have been around for a couple of years now and I have applied
for Beta several times and never even get a response. When they first came
up, they were supposed to be a 3D internet tool, now it looks like a
SimsOnline with 3D knockoff. (Which BTW , I did try as a beta, not worth
the 1.2 gig download IMO)

If anyone has seen anything besides screenshots and vaportrails let me know.

Also, if the Internet is realllllllllly gonna go 3D this time then we are
still here and so are you... maybe it will be fun. There are sure a lot of
new coders thanks to the AW SDK and there are a lot more good modelers too.


E

Dec 12, 2002, 4:26pm

Just had a funny thought...

I wonder which one of these "new coders" is going to be the first Second
Life hacker Linden will have to deal with


: P


E


[View Quote]

Dec 12, 2002, 6:20pm

Now now, Big E. Lets not encourage foul play. I didn't see you smiling when
Gavroche unpacked the 3.2 browser despite the encryption or when Sleepy E
wrote a tunneling program give himself CT in any world. ;)

Nah, I just hope Second Lame has a CEO who is as fun as easy going, they'll
need it to compete with AW. They might have the fillz, but not the
community.

-Robbie

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Dec 12, 2002, 6:32pm

hey! what about me! the M SWE hacker (you know, like M.C HAMMER!) well, when
i went on an eject freenzy in a world i didnt have no rights in! everyone
remeber the world "WAR"?:)

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Dec 12, 2002, 7:00pm

Below:

[View Quote]
Preview if anyone is interested in reading:

http://www.gamespy.com/previews/december02/secondlifepc/

Basically the world is all streamed through the browser, hence broadband requirement, and anything is
scriptable and customizable and what not. Avatar customization is great too, there's 130 sliders with 34 just
for the hair. The interesting part is that you get charged taxes based on how much server space you take up but
you are able to sell objects you've made and scripted. So there's a built in economy and I don't believe
anything is actually hosted on your computer.

It says the client is only 8mb so the 1.2gig download that must have been an earlier version or something. And
there's more info and screenshots there also.

And no I haven't actually used it, but I don't think gamespy just made up the preview for fun either.


[View Quote] > Nah, I just hope Second Lame has a CEO who is as fun as easy going, they'll
> need it to compete with AW. They might have the fillz, but not the
> community.
>
> -Robbie

Can they really *have* a community this early? It's a bit early to tell anyway but I think it has a lot of
potential and when it comes out well get to see how it really works.

--
Zeo

Dec 12, 2002, 7:29pm

Well how about doing the obvious thing and shooting out their spotlights and
im sure robbie will let us borrow a few of his spotlight objects from his
object path to bring the light onto our side of the equation.

I mean we might as well steal their publicity, we are after all going to
smash their endevour into 3D into a exoillion pieces after people start
learning about Active Worlds.. Now would be a very good time to invest in
advertising to get the focus away from them before they get a foothold.

- Mark

[View Quote]

Dec 12, 2002, 7:37pm

That was my take on it. I signed up and they said they'd contact me later
but nothing ever came of it.
Reading the website is like reading an Enron doublespeak annual report.
They've got ways of describing the same things AW has as if it were
something new. Enzo, you really oughtta look into hiring their PR
department, your sales would go through the roof!


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Dec 12, 2002, 7:49pm

Not every day I get to watch someone place their foot so enthusiastically into their mouth. Hehehe.

Don't mind me... couldn't resist that one. :)

TechnoZeus

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Dec 12, 2002, 7:53pm

I'm with you on that one. We'll believe it when we see it... and if it's real, we'll know we all (the Active Worlds Community) had a part in making it happen, and will be the force that helps it get off the ground... after all, we ARE the 3D Internet. :)

TechnoZeus

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Dec 12, 2002, 8:56pm

Not only that.. but there PR guy made a little premature of a press
release.... Q3 of 2003... that's quite a while to start building hype about
that..

I can almost guaranty that Second Life will have that same "wanna cyb0r" &
"you suxor" style chat that near every other chat room on the internet
contains of, luckily for AW there is a much stronger community base and
interaction with the "powers that be" and chat moderation to prevent
obscenity and vandalism that AW bestows. When this "Second life" is
released I will most certainly get it and try it out, but only to find every
little detail that could posibly deserve criticizing - after all, that's
what I do best. :-)

-JB

[View Quote]

Dec 12, 2002, 9:42pm

A software product needs PR as well as code lines, nothing wrong
with a good product placement in the media.


[View Quote]

Dec 12, 2002, 9:57pm

[View Quote] Now you are in trouble Enzo :)
Excerpts from the Beta sign up legal documents:

======= Preface for the Non-Disclosure Agreement:

As a participant in the Second Life Closed Beta you must agree to a
Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA). Our NDA basically requires you to treat
the Closed Beta and your participation as confidential. This includes:

Not discussing Second Life outside of in-world game conversations or
the official Second Life forums hosted on our website

Not sharing information or screenshots with friends, family or media
(this includes posting experience on personal websites, Internet journals
or blogs)

Not identifying yourself as a Second Life Closed Beta participant outside
of the Second Life community

======= Isn't it some secrecy????

Before proceeding you will need to accept the Terms of Service (TOS)
for joining the Second Life™ Closed Beta. It's a legal document and at
times can feel very formal, but please take the time to read through it.
The TOS explains your rights as a Second Life Resident and details the
ground rules to help keep Second Life an exciting and dynamic destination.
We have a legal obligation to enforce certain laws pertaining to your
safety and the use of this software. These obligations are expressed in
the TOS. Our goal is to support a diverse community which is respectful
of each other.

--------------------------------------------------
1. TERMS OF AGREEMENT
1.1 The Agreement. <snip>
Accessing or using the Service will be considered acceptance of this Agreement.

2. ACCOUNTS
2.1 Eligibility. Establish an account with Linden (the "Account") in order
to use the Service. For the Closed Beta we encourage adults residing in
the United States or Canada who are 18 years of age or older to open
Second Life accounts. Those who meet these standards, open an account
and maintain their account in good standing are sometimes referred to
in this Agreement as "Participants." By accepting this agreement you
represent that you meet the account requirements specified above.

======= Doesn't it sound as a bank agreement? =========

2.2 Registration Obligations. You agree to provide true, accurate,
current and complete information about yourself as prompted by the
registration form ("Registration Data") and maintain and promptly
update the Registration Data to keep it true, accurate, current and
complete. This will help us keep in contact with you and maintain
your active Second Life account. When completing the registration form
please be honest. We expect you to be truthful and reserve all rights to
vigorously pursue legal action if you misrepresent personal information
or are otherwise untruthful about your identity.

======= For what do they need all my personal information? =====

4. HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL. Your use of the Service is highly
confidential. The Service, including any information related to or
concerning the game and information regarding features, look and
feel, gameplay and functionality of the Service (all of the above
is collectively "Linden Information"), is confidential. You must use
your best efforts to safeguard and to prevent unauthorized access to,
copying, disclosure, and unauthorized use of Linden Information. You
will carry out the testing personally on the CPU on which you initially
install the Service and not provide access to the game, the Service or
any Linden Information to any other person. You agree that breach of the
above confidentiality obligations will cause irreparable harm to Linden,
and Linden is entitled to (in addition to any other remedies available
to it) ex parte injunctive relief without bond to prevent the breach or
threatened breach of your obligations. Your obligation to keep Linden
Information totally confidential will continue until further written
notice from Linden indicating that information is no longer confidential.

======= WOW! Even a single word about that product and I'll be in jail!!!

5. USER OBLIGATIONS

5.2 Evaluation. From time to time Linden may request: (i) certain levels
of participation in the Service; (ii) time commitments with regard to
how often and for how long you will use the Service; (iii) completion of
evaluation surveys; (iv) compliance with directions to perform certain
actions in the Service, and (v) other requests related to the testing
of the Service. You agree to make your best efforts to help us with all
such requests in a timely manner as a condition of being a Participant.

======= Excellent idea for our Beta testers :)

8.1 Termination. Linden has the right at any time for any reason or no
reason to suspend or terminate your Account, terminate this Agreement,
or refuse any and all current or future use of the Service. Upon request
from Linden, you agree to delete any electronic or printed copies of
information or software programs that you received from Linden to conduct
this Test.


9.1 Privacy Policy.<snip>
Linden can (and you authorize Linden to) disclose any information about you
to private entities, law enforcement agencies or government officials,
as Linden, in its sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to
investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries, or as otherwise
required by law. If Linden requests any technical support, you consent
to Linden's remote accessing and review of the computer you load Linden
software onto for purposes of support and debugging.

<snip>

9.2 Linden Observation. You acknowledge and agree that Linden may track,
record, observe or follow any and all of your interactions within the
Service. If this observation is conducted we will review the accumulated
information on an anonymous basis.

--
Andras
"It's MY computer" (tm Steve Gibson)

Dec 12, 2002, 11:09pm

*Prods E N Z O* You really have shot yourself in the foot with this 1 btw :D

And theyve already got more exposure than AW!

- Mark
[View Quote]

Dec 12, 2002, 11:16pm

Hehehe... yeah, like "streaming data" as opposed to data that downloads as needed? :)

Really though, I think AW is better off without such PR. Let the companies that choose to hype themselves up face the consequences when people see how what they really get compares with what they thought they were getting. Back when people who thought AW would be free forever found out that what they were really getting wasn't what they expected, those of us who whitnessed the event got a good look at how people react to such a let down.... it wasn't pretty.

TechnoZeus

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Dec 12, 2002, 11:20pm

I thinkt he 1.2 gig download was referring to the SimsOnline, as enzo said
he has not seen Linden :)

Poseidon

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Dec 12, 2002, 11:22pm

I agree. This is a nice trade-off. Active Worlds brought the platform into existance and many companies now have the chance to benefit from it. Now some of those companies can do a little PR for the platform, so that Active Worlds can benefit from it. Saves a little money over at Active Worlds Inc., which the citizens of Active Worlds should all appreciate. :)

TechnoZeus

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Dec 12, 2002, 11:24pm

The problem with your theory TZ is that people are going to swallow what
they're sold, because they haven't experienced anything otherwise. In other
words, LindenLabs is using words that describe their product to a T, but
these words are buzzwords that make it look streamlined and cool. They have
the same meaning as the oldschool words. Streaming data vs data that
downloads as needed.

It's the same thing, but it sounds better. So their customers will get what
they were promised. Anything less is false advertising, which is illegal,
obviously, and is profit suicide. So they're not going to do that! :)

Summarily, they're using buzzwords that make their product look good, and
possibly better than AW.

Chris

[View Quote]

Dec 12, 2002, 11:25pm

Quote: now it looks like a SimsOnline with 3D knockoff. (Which BTW , I did
try as a beta, not worth
the 1.2 gig download IMO)

Hey guys...
er uhm.. i read that as he downloaded SimsOnline Beta that is available now
at 1.2 gig download (ack)

Dec 12, 2002, 11:31pm

Well, considering he hasn't mentioned anything in their software that isn't already in other software (such as Active Worlds) and hasn't really directly stated what the program was like, but rather only that it didn't seem worth such a huge download, he didn't really release any proprietary information... it's a grey area, but I think he's safe as long as he stops there. After all, he could just as easily have said that Active Worlds wouldn't be worth a Gigabyte of download just to try out, or that some past beta version of Active Worlds that offers nothing new and hasn't got the bugs worked out yet doesn't seem with a Gigabyte of download. None of that is really product specific. Still, better to be careful... in my opinion. :)

TechnoZeus

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Dec 12, 2002, 11:33pm

Me too... and I don't know what the kind of agreement that comes with... but since he really didn't mention anything specific about it, I don't suppose it matters.

TechnoZeus

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Dec 12, 2002, 11:39pm

Yep... those who have realistic expectations will probably be happy with it, and I think that's great. Those with unrealist expectations will be let down, and I think that's a real shame. Of course, there will be plenty of each, but when it's all over the net result will be more exposure of the idea of interactive communities in online 3D worlds, which I still believe will benefit all of us who have already grown to appreciate such things, and Active Worlds may not always be the leader, but if they don't try to be another follower they will at least always be setting a good example of what's possible. I think that's something to be proud of, and I'm proud to be a part of it.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Dec 12, 2002, 11:49pm

Aha...I got mine on CD but quit a week later, it's not even worth ordering the CD (which was free recently I
think).

--
Zeo

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Dec 12, 2002, 11:54pm

[View Quote] Thanks,

--
Andras
"It's MY computer" (tm Steve Gibson)

Dec 13, 2002, 12:08am

Ok

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Dec 13, 2002, 1:06am

I don't think Enzo is a beta tester. So it doesn't really apply. Right?

Chris

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Dec 13, 2002, 1:52am

How are people going to know about Active Worlds when all they hear about is
editorializing about Second Life being the first of it's kind?

Chris

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Dec 13, 2002, 2:18am

Look at Second Life. One of the pictures look exaclty like AW objects also
this streaming if it's faster than downloading may be a good option for AW
to make has optional from the download. I think Second Life copied the AW
idea but didn't give credit. They say none of the programs like it came off
the ground...THEIR LYING! AW went off the ground and is still in it's flight
around the world. Also AW is the only program which you don't have to buy
then buy a citizenship. You download it then buy a citizenship. Also AW is
getting better in it's work.. I certainly think AW should considor doing
some stuff that this plac is doing and also do their own stuff. One pic
shows water which looks exactly likw AW and it has fog,terrain and clouds.
AW is getting this in 3.4

[View Quote]

Dec 13, 2002, 2:26am

I agree. Actually, something AW could really use is some really good
marketing. What we have here is really great, though not quite game like, it
is a real tool, particularly useful to buisnesses, as well as for
entertainment. I don't know about how better marketing could be attained,
because of financial things, but I have a lot of ideas, since my father
actually worked on the Marketing team for an IBM program a year ago or so.
So, if ya need any ideas, or any help implementing them, or any man power,
just let me know :-)

J

[View Quote]

Dec 13, 2002, 3:01am

Maybe they don't know about AW yet... but if they don't, they will. The bigger they get, the harder it will be for them to overlook or ignore the fact that there's a reason the trail they're blazing it so easy to cut a path through. :)

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Dec 13, 2002, 7:55am

The bigger problem is this :

http://www.time.com/time/2002/inventions/rob_environment.html

I think, this influences more people than GameSpy and more will be
willing to believe every word they read there. When 2nd life comes
public, they will think that AW is the clone.

The AW browser should quickly make its way to all free-/shareware
CDs in PC magazines in many countries - _before_ LindenLab does
that.


[View Quote]

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