opinions and flaming and stuff (Community)

opinions and flaming and stuff // Community

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ambivalent

Sep 22, 2002, 1:46am
As a relative newbie to this forum, but a participant in quite a number of
other forums, I'm wondering why it is so difficult in here for people to
tolerate the opinions of others, even when they are expressed in polite
terms. I can't say it's the first time I've seen this sort of thing, but in
my experience in other forums, where you have a large number of bright,
talented people, as here in the AW community, there is usually more
tolerance for differences.

A number of people have told me they wouldn't dare to post their opinions in
here for fear of the flames. An inability to freely speak thwarts
discussions from which the group could benefit.

I post this in all sincerity (and sure hope I won't get flamed for offering
my observation, and asking about it).

Could some of the 'old timers' offer me some insight on this? And is there a
certain way in which it's sort of expected that opinions be offered that is
tolerated better than other ways?

Thanks -
Kerstin
(formerly ambivalent)

bowen

Sep 22, 2002, 1:56am
Mmm, I would have to say the level of ludicrousness of the post or idea? I *try* not
to flame unless it really... just deserves it. Anyways, everyone can post, I'll
protect ya. :D

--Bowen--

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ambivalent

Sep 22, 2002, 2:01am
i wasn't really talking about posts with ludicrous ideas in them. thinking
more of the ones that are straightforward, but the person just has a
different viewpoint.

and thanks for the offer of protection. * runs and hides behind bowen *



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posh

Sep 22, 2002, 2:20am
I have been in AW for over 4 1/2 yrs. Kerstin and everytime I peek at the
NGS (which I stay out of for the most part) it is the same no matter what..
wish I knew.. but if you do find out I want to know! lol :)
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lioness.

Sep 22, 2002, 2:34am
Not really an "old timer" to the ngs, but older and a bit wiser in real
life. I too have noticed how much flaming is done in here and that is why
even though I am tempted often to tell people off for being too judgemental,
I keep it to myself for fear of being flamed to a crisp. Funny how some
people can be so critical of others and yet they don't see the mistakes they
make or that they are reacting so harshly. Part of growing up and maturing
is being more tolerant of others and their mistakes. That is part of being
human, .....making mistakes. That's how we humans learn usually. I hope that
we all soon learn that by judging others we too must allow ourselves to be
judged by others. ;-"D



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ambivalent

Sep 22, 2002, 4:17am
wise words, lioness.

thanks :)

the derek

Sep 22, 2002, 5:14am
i wonder that too... ive never seen ANYWHERE out of control as bad as these
ng's
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ananas

Sep 22, 2002, 5:33am
This is easy to explain, people here know eachother better
than in usenet, you find several people who just reply with
a flame because they reply to someone whom they don't like
in AW either. In usenet, most people are quite anonymous.


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ambivalent

Sep 22, 2002, 5:36am
i didn't think about that, ananas, but that probably does have something to
do with it. in the other newsgroups i belong to, very few people associate
with each other outside of posts to the NG, so that kind of lends validity
to what you say.

interesting point.




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hal9000

Sep 22, 2002, 6:34am
I have been here for 4-5 years, and Eep seemed to be the one that always started them.
Eep got people used to the idea, and probably trained a few...
So i guess its just tradition now...

Also the fact that AWI doesn't monitor them at all, or in that case even look at them (excluding the beta ng).


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wizard myrddin

Sep 22, 2002, 7:15am
That seem to be a valid point there Hal9000, people see what other
"Community Long Timers" conduct them selves and see this as the "norm".

I personally consider that anyone in any position in the community should
always set an example of how to conduct in either the forums or within the
environment.

Its a case of leading by example.

I do not consider bad grammer or spelling any great point if the argument if
there. This is not a newsgroup for acedemic excelence, its one where people
regardless of education, background, race or any other group can have a say
on issues relating to the subject of that newsgroup without fear of
intimidation.

As you state, when people are allowed to post flames and intimidation it is
sadly seen as the excepted, also this can be seen as a reflection of the
total system of Activeworlds by those who will read the newsgroup and are
not a member, after all this is a public newsgroup that anyone can read.

Personal conflicts have no place in newgroups.


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dzap

Sep 22, 2002, 7:18am
[View Quote] I believe these newsgroups have never reached critical mass of posters.
As long as a small angry crowd is large enough to set the agenda this is
what you will see.

A parallell is the swedish "se.".hierarchy on usenet. There are groups
which really works and are interesting to follow but there are others
that are hijacked by the angry crowd due to too few polite people and no
normal discussion can survive in them. Sadly, usenet is one of the most
underused and perhaps misunderstood parts of the net.

Jonas

facter

Sep 22, 2002, 7:46am
.....every forum is different...you should of seen this place a few yaras
ago, man, do I remember some of THOSE glame wars....

....oh, people here are very tolerant, but as this community comprises people
that are both very old, and very new...you will find some of the older
people are a bit less patient with new people who really dont know what they
are talkigna bout in certain respects...

...but its all good, we are nice people - but flame wars are everywhere, and
they are to be found in extremely established communities and long running
forums moreso than others...

F.


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facter

Sep 22, 2002, 7:47am
[View Quote]
I used to :)

F.

johnny b jbitt2atjuno.com

Sep 22, 2002, 12:23pm
Interesting subject for sure.... here's my thoughts.....

1. Anonymity (per say) The biggest mouths in here, more than likely
wouldnt flap their gums like they do in a real face to face confrontation
with someone who might very possibly pose a physical threat to them....
It's a lot easier to call your mother all manner of names in HERE, rather
than face to face, where there's a strong possibility you could end up with
your teeth being put through the back of your head..........

2. Repressed hostility.... I'd have to imagine that there's a few people
in here who's REAL lives arent quite what they'd like them to be..... who
might keep the anger all bottled up in real life, then blow off the steam in
here. It's not too hard to see...... coupled with the relative anonymity of
a newsgroup, it makes for an easy form of "venting" so to speak....

3. Mental deficiencies... there's just SOME people here who are idiots....
who always have been and always will be jerks..... god only knows why, but
such is life.... Unfortunate, but inevitable...

4. Lack of restraint..... AW really doesn't moderate these groups all that
well, or often, in my experience. I'm sure, of course, they haven't the
time to sit here and read every post written, to look for the usual
stupidity and nastiness but had the rules been laid down and enforced more
stringently, perhaps this place might be a bit more agreeable..... Hell,
Even Eep behaved for a little while after his posting privileges were
returned.... But he seems to have this compunction to spew forth his
unbased self-aggrandizing opinions, all the while being his usual useless
annoying whiney self, while attacking everyone and everything in
sight....... but I suppose there will always be someone in here that can't
overcome their juvenile urges, grow up and realize that they know FAR from
as much as they think they do........

5. The thrill of confrontation.. Some people just "get off" on controversy.
They get a kick out of arguing with anyone over anything... even IF they're
clearly
wrong, uninformed, or simply "full of it" They just CAN'T resist stirring
the pot, so to speak.... even this latest mess with the AWnews domain has
shown this... people posting legal advice that have NO idea what they're
talking about... Unless the original owner has a valid registered trademark
on the name AWNews, there's just no legal basis to support bringing suit
against the cybersquatter.... That and the fact that Goober isn't the
original owner of the domain, negates any possibility of legal remedy...
And it sucks... The only thing that might change it, is a law being passed
( which wouldn't really matter, since there's no way to outlaw PRIOR
offences, since he has the domain ALREADY..) or embarassment by the media...
which I seriously doubt would happen in this case..... I mean we're not
talking about some idiot dumping toxic waste on his property 100 yards from
a school.....
Back to my point though.... It's sort of like a child who speaks, just to
be heard..... doesn't matter whether they're valid, informed, involved, or
even correct, some people just have to get their two cents in.....

It's a shame, because this forum could truly be so much better than it is...
Think of the sheer number of citizens in AW. Now think of the relatively
tiny number of people who post in the newsgroups..... Even THIS post has
brought a few out of the woodwork that haven't posted in quite a while..
Makes me wonder how many helpful things we all might be missing.... or THEY
might be missing, know what I mean ? As many have said, most people won't
post in here because of the immature behavior of so many that do..... The
only hope is if AW starts enforcing the rules a bit more vehemently and the
aggressors are banned when they demonstrate their lack of maturity,
responsibility, and just plain consideration for others here.... good luck
seeing that happen though.. But one CAN wish :O)

JB


[View Quote]

yanst

Sep 22, 2002, 12:34pm
It's not just AW NG's, it's like that in many other newsgroups as well;
however, it doesn't make it right.

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nornny11

Sep 22, 2002, 1:37pm
I agree with Facter. This is the kindest newsgroup I've seen in months and
years. We're all very traditionalists, and stubborn too. The issues that
arrive out of the newsgroups are really issues that affect 2% of the AW
population and you'd have to be struck by lightning to be facing such
issues. In AW, most of us are just happy builders, pleasant
conversationalists, and so forth. In the newsgroup, I think showing our
extremes is more effective in solving extreme problems. But the people
oldies get angered at tend to be the people that DRAG things out to
eternity. And most people don't back out from a fight, and it always becomes
a war of the final words. And people get desperate, that's where flame wars
occur.

Add in a dash of stupidity, a sprinkle of sensitivity, and two teaspoons of
history, and voila, a flamewar. :) It's always about proving yourself in
here, I think. We are a family, and its hard to constantly accept new
members. They'll love you or hate you, or both. I don't think you can get
away of jumping right into this newsgroup and start putting people down,
starting your own thread with complaints about how AW or even this newsgroup
runs things, or immediately putting yourself up as an "experienced member of
AW society." None of your experiences in AW really affect our opinion of you
in AW. As evidence, AWI members, the people that keep this program running,
ar ethe most trashed about people in the newsgroup. If you start off from
the wrong foot, it's going to be TOUGH to get the right one in because
you'll constantly be kicked. But people do it, I like to think we're very
tolerant of mistakes, but the people who make the mistakes aren't patient
enough to let the sand settle.

I dunno, I guess I'm trying to say, it's tough to come in and change the
rules around here, at least immediately. You're going to have to prove
yourself a competent newsgroup poster first, and then the person you really
are later. :) The two really go hand in hand though, you can't post a post
without showing your personality a little.

--
From the Newbie's Guide to the AW NG:

"Nornny11 - The original wishy-washy man, this one can actually insult you
and compliment you in the same breath, and in the end say absolutely
nothing! What a talent!"

[View Quote]

carolann

Sep 22, 2002, 2:28pm
This was so very well said, but also very simple and logical. As an AW
Newsgroups "seldom poster" but veteran reader, that says it exactly as it is
in my opinion. I don't post often because for one thing I am one of the
"just happy builders, pleasant
conversationalists, and so forth" that you mentioned but not necessarily
full of the technical knowledge that is needed to be helpful in that area.

"And most people don't back out from a fight, and it always becomes
a war of the final words. And people get desperate, that's where flame wars
occur." "Add in a dash of stupidity, a sprinkle of sensitivity, and two
teaspoons of
history, and voila, a flamewar. :)"

Yes, on the other hand I, like some of the rest of the general,
non-technical issue posters, am opinionated and stubborn so I try to find
something else to do lately (walk the dog, wash the windows, eat chocolate)
when I am tempted to post on something that makes me grit my teeth and
clench my fists. Besides all of that, I was one of those who's first post a
couple years ago was met with the comments of "you know who", so that wasn't
a great start for me. To add to your very insightful ideas though, I think
since we are not able to speak with our "physical" voice, sometimes, or some
of us, feel the need to speak louder with our "textual" voice, maybe with
the need to know we are being heard or looked at as we speak. I think it is
kind of a human need in r/l and it is a way to try to have that happen in
here.

[View Quote]

aine

Sep 22, 2002, 2:37pm
"johnny b" <jbitt2ATjuno.com> wrote ...
> It's a shame, because this forum could truly be so much better than it =
is...
> Think of the sheer number of citizens in AW. Now think of the =
relatively
> tiny number of people who post in the newsgroups..... Even THIS post =
has
> brought a few out of the woodwork that haven't posted in quite a =
while..
> Makes me wonder how many helpful things we all might be missing.... or =
THEY
> might be missing, know what I mean ? As many have said, most people =
won't
> post in here because of the immature behavior of so many that do..... =
The
> only hope is if AW starts enforcing the rules a bit more vehemently =
and the
> aggressors are banned when they demonstrate their lack of maturity,
> responsibility, and just plain consideration for others here.... =
good luck
> seeing that happen though.. But one CAN wish :O)

If people would quit lamenting the fact that these newsgroups are so =
crappy and do something about it, they would get better. If you want =
better newsgroups here, it's up to each and every one of you to make =
them better. This doesn't mean that a vicious game of "Stomp the Twit" =
will make these newsgroups better either. Post thoughtful, intelligent =
posts and don't respond to flamebait. Use common sense, good judgment, =
and manners when you write a post.

Don't rely on the "company" to enforce an arbitrary set of rules that =
you'll have no input in forming. For one thing, it's been shown over =
time that many of the members here have a better sense of what's going =
on than the "company officials" do.

If you want better newsgroups, make them better.

=20
=C1ine


People who do the world's real work don't usually wear neckties.

--------------------------------------------------
http://www.3DVRWeb.com/
--------------------------------------------------

goober king

Sep 22, 2002, 3:28pm
[View Quote] That's me! ;)

Seriously, though, as Johnny pointed out, one of the reasons people do
it is simply because they can. There are no real consequences for their
actions, which frees them to attack any person over any subject. While
I'm all for intelligent discussion, flame wars really get stupid when
the conversation turns from the topic and instead concentrates on the
people involved or what was said. (I reference you to the VR Village
thread for the most recent example)

Of course, the way to curb all this is to start with yourself. (and I'm
talking to everyone, here) If you find yourself starting to talk about
the other person or what was said, rather than the topic at hand, STOP!
The beautiful thing about the NGs is that you *don't* have to reply to
something right away. You have all the time in the world to think out
your response and post intelligently when you're ready. Unfortunately,
some people don't take advantage of this "feature" and wind up making
themselves look like idiots, and in the process ruin the NG experience
for everyone else.

I think if more people used the wait feature more often, (myself
included) we wouldn't have these problems to begin with. One can only
hope...

--
Goober King
Stirring the Virtual Melting Pot Since 1996
robrod at prism.net

linn

Sep 22, 2002, 4:04pm
humm well I don't know what this has to do with old cits or young cits or
ppl who are new here or in AW freedom of speech is our blessing im just
trying to keep mine and I think we all know who "you know who" is and she
doesn't have the right to take mine away does she yours???
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linn

Sep 22, 2002, 4:09pm
goob wrote I'm all for intelligent discussion, flame wars really get
stupid when
the conversation turns from the topic and instead concentrates on the
people involved or what was said. (I reference you to the VR Village
thread for the most recent example)

Of course, the way to curb all this is to start with yourself. (and I'm
talking to everyone, here) If you find yourself starting to talk about
the other person or what was said, rather than the topic at hand, STOP!

well goob what was being said IS the subject freedom of speech with no
one telling ppl what to say or do we can all disagree but why trash ppl
after all few of us really know each other anyway
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henrikg

Sep 22, 2002, 5:13pm
You make some good points. Personally I would call myself an old-timer and
for quite some time AW was more then just entertainment for me, it was a
creative outlet, a place to meet new friends and in general have a great
time.

I think many have such strong emotions about AW because they have more
ambitions with the software then just entertainment, they make models, build
worlds etc.. all in all knows the software intimately and are frustrated
when they meet limitations and shortcomings.

Myself I don't create much in AW anymore, my job has become challenging
enough to make me reserve my spare time to relaxation and definitly not get
involved with the coldness of these newsgroups. Also, 99% of the friends I
had in AW have left so the names I see here are mostly strangers to me.

Flaming and insulting don't achieve anything anyway, it only create
hostility. If one wants to make your opionions actually heard its far
better to be constructive in critisism and also accept the diversity of
people.

HenrikG


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sw chris

Sep 22, 2002, 8:29pm
xwlegacy.net Forums.

These NGS just got beat. :)

SW Chris

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nornny11

Sep 22, 2002, 9:06pm
I thought "you know who" was Eep. lol. In which case, Eep is a he (which is
shocking because of his uttermost feminine gracefulness and sympathy :P),
and he has no power of taking your freedom of speech away. :) In fact, he
stretches that freedom more than rubber band can, compared to any of us. In
fact, he sometimes makes me feel ashamed to have freedom of speech the way
he uses it. lol. He just barks though, no bite, don't worry. :)) Insult him
away, just be prepared to take the senseless heat.

--
--
From the Newbie's Guide to the AW NG:

"Nornny11 - The original wishy-washy man, this one can actually insult you
and compliment you in the same breath, and in the end say absolutely
nothing! What a talent!"
[View Quote]

linn

Sep 22, 2002, 9:26pm
LOL gotta lub it !!! nice to see something that makes me smile for a
change eep is a neat guy just a bit harsh :-)
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hal9000

Sep 22, 2002, 9:28pm
you were the exception, and we appreciate that ;-)


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carolann

Sep 22, 2002, 9:31pm
Please forgive me Linn but I have to clarify this to avoid offending someone
I have no reason to offend and I sure don't mean to offend you either in the
way I say this. I didn't say anything about old, new, young or whatever kind
of person posting. I agree, the minute a person has the right to post here
he should have the same rights, (whether or not he/she has the same AW
knowledge or experience) to post as the person who was here since day 1. But
could it be you might read into other's words things that are not there, or
maybe tend to attempt to speak for others. (this is only an opinion, not
stated as fact) Maybe that is where this part of the thread went wrong. The
thing is, just as the all inclusive "ppl" could have been replaced by "I" in
a previous post....my "you know who" is not a female but is a male long
known to tear apart those who he does not agree with or otherwise respect.
You are so right about "freedom of speech", at least in AW, as is made
obvious by the fact that we are both posting here even after everything has
been said. Only those to whom this news group belongs can take away our
right to post and as far as I can see, they don't do that easily. I guess it
is very important for those posting to, or following a thread in a newsgroup
to remember that the discussion is only 2 dimensional in a way and it might
take more effort in some ways on the part of both sides to make sure
everything is understood as it is meant. And of course tolerance and
open-mindedness are always important. (yes, I'm listening too). Our freedom
to state an opinion here should be respected just as we should respect
others for stating theirs...but we should only speak for ourselves and state
our own thoughts and never claim to speak for those who did not give us
permission to do so.

goober king

Sep 22, 2002, 10:46pm
Umm, if you're referring to the VR Village thread, the original topic
(if there ever really was one to begin with) was over ABP's comments
about the forum and it's clientele. In fact, it was *your* comments that
turned it into a "Speak for yourself" thread.

But, here I am demonstrating the very thing I told everyone not to do:
yakking about the thread itself rather than what the thread is about.
Hopefully this proved educational to some. I'll shut up now. :P

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Part of the problem is some people just don't get it...
robrod at prism.net

ambivalent

Sep 23, 2002, 1:26am
I just wanted to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond. Your
thoughtful opinions, advice, and cautions are well taken, and very much
appreciated. Thank you for sharing them. I think there are wise words for
most of us in these posts, and I know I am going to make a sincere effort to
heed them.

Thank you again -
Kerstin


[View Quote]

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