ThreadBoard ArchivesSite FeaturesActiveworlds SupportHistoric Archives |
Ongoing boycott (Community)
Ongoing boycott // CommunitykaterineJan 8, 2002, 10:02pm
Hi there,
Like there is still no answer, news or anything at all form awc yet, it becomes obvious that they don't care about our requests. If petitions, posts, mails and so on are worthless, we might start to "hit where it hurts". Meaning a boycott of aw. All french speaking worlds have been closed (turned red) since today (tuesday) but it's not enough so we don't connect as user at all to aw. Only 3 french speaking worlds are not following, taking the opportunity that the other ones are on purpose closed or down. No comment. Closing the worlds is not enough and that won't affect aw. Seeing hardly any users connected might affect them a bit more. The purpose is not even to ask them to lower the prices (I think it's worthless) but to make them remove the mandatory CC information thing which seems way more fatal in consequences than the raise of the prices. The french speaking community is quite small (less than 20 worlds) so this boycott need to be massively followed. If everybody is yelling and expresses his disagreement, how many are willing to make a little sacrifice to can see the aw we like back? If you want to help with the boycott, turn your worlds in red and don't connect to aw untill they finally "dare" to say something relevant to their users. If you want to chat with your friends, you can use bots,not counted as user connected. Hoping that you'll follow, thank you for reading Cat sweJan 8, 2002, 10:16pm
Ok, im not no aw lover. but there running a buissness, and so they wont give
a flyinf f*** about no pention or anything like that lol. i mean,do u goto microsoft and complain but the price of there products? i mean like windows ME, the onlything it had more then win 98 is windows media player pre-installed and lots of bugs. And do u think they accieved being able to sell that by listening to pentions? cuz i dont. another thing,aint no one in aw gonna boycot aw, believe me :) SWE PS.please dont no one go flaming me. i repeat,aint no AW managment lover or ass kisser! [View Quote] foxmccloudJan 8, 2002, 10:22pm
Message in french follows, since the only people interested will be french-speaking people (it's about a french-speaking universe)
Salut ! Si jamais ça t'intéresse (tu le savais peut etre, mais ça peut en intéresser d'autres), il existe un univers entièrement francophone nommé cyberbrain (aussi connu sous le nom de Village 3D), on existe depuis 3 ans et on a pas mal de citoyens (rien de comparable à AW mais ya une super ambiance :) ), et on ne changera pas les prix. Par contre on reste à la version 3.0 depuis un moment à cause du prix trop élevé de l'upgrade, mais bon c'est déjà bien. Tu peux télécharger le browser sur www.levillage.org (et d'ailleurs on a meme un journal hebdomadaire en ligne + un journal papier distribué en kiosque ;) ) Note : je gagne pas d'argent là dedans, mais je suis un des modérateurs de l'univers (Adjoint à la Mairie comme on appelle ça dans notre petit monde) Fox Mc Cloud le Gaulois "katerine" <removethisailleurs at ailleurs3d.com> a écrit dans le message news: Xns9191973781BDnospambrrcom at 166.90.181.12... > > Hi there, > > Like there is still no answer, news or anything at all form awc yet, it > becomes obvious that they don't care about our requests. If petitions, > posts, mails and so on are worthless, we might start to "hit where it > hurts". Meaning a boycott of aw. > > All french speaking worlds have been closed (turned red) since today > (tuesday) but it's not enough so we don't connect as user at all to aw. > Only 3 french speaking worlds are not following, taking the opportunity > that the other ones are on purpose closed or down. No comment. > > Closing the worlds is not enough and that won't affect aw. > Seeing hardly any users connected might affect them a bit more. > > The purpose is not even to ask them to lower the prices (I think it's > worthless) but to make them remove the mandatory CC information thing > which seems way more fatal in consequences than the raise of the prices. > > The french speaking community is quite small (less than 20 worlds) so > this boycott need to be massively followed. > > If everybody is yelling and expresses his disagreement, how many are > willing to make a little sacrifice to can see the aw we like back? > > If you want to help with the boycott, turn your worlds in red and don't > connect to aw untill they finally "dare" to say something relevant to > their users. > > If you want to chat with your friends, you can use bots,not > counted as user connected. > > Hoping that you'll follow, thank you for reading > > Cat foxmccloudJan 8, 2002, 10:25pm
I agree that boycott is not an option. Just pay if you find it reasonable, don't if you think it's not acceptable, and if too many
people think the price is too much, our message of disagreement to them will come soon enough in the form of a reduced paycheck for them. Fox Mc Cloud "swe" <m_swehli at hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message news: 3c3b8be5 at server1.Activeworlds.com... > Ok, im not no aw lover. but there running a buissness, and so they wont give > a flyinf f*** about no pention or anything like that lol. i mean,do u goto > microsoft and complain but the price of there products? i mean like windows > ME, the onlything it had more then win 98 is windows media player > pre-installed and lots of bugs. And do u think they accieved being able to > sell that by listening to pentions? cuz i dont. > another thing,aint no one in aw gonna boycot aw, believe me :) > > SWE > PS.please dont no one go flaming me. i repeat,aint no AW managment lover or > ass kisser! goober kingJan 8, 2002, 10:34pm
Methinks both of you need a heavy dose of reality (not the virtual kind). :P
As other people have pointed out about the so-called World Closing boycott, not logging in to AW won't mean diddly to AWC. In fact, they are probably expecting this to happen, as people who can't afford to pay the higher prices let their citships run out. The only thing that a boycott will affect is the AW community by making it stagnant and boring. Now ask yourself this: Is it really worth sacrificing the lifeblood of the AW community in some vain attempt at getting AWC to reverse its policies (something that has *never* happened in AWC's history)? I think not. And as for you, SWE, comparing AW to Microsoft is like comparing a leaky dinghy to the USS Roosevelt. Microsoft has never even been close to filing for bankruptcy, and has almost never been in a position where it *had* to make massive amounts of money quickly. Besides, it's not as if they jack up prices spontaneously. Generally, once a price is set on their product, it stays that way (or goes lower). It's not as if they charged $50 for Windows 95 and then jacked up the price to $200 last month. :P And I don't care how old you are, but you really could stand to start taking some English classes. Hell, Kathrine's English is better than yours, and its not even her native language! [View Quote] > Ok, im not no aw lover. but there running a buissness, and so they wont give > a flyinf f*** about no pention or anything like that lol. i mean,do u goto > microsoft and complain but the price of there products? i mean like windows > ME, the onlything it had more then win 98 is windows media player > pre-installed and lots of bugs. And do u think they accieved being able to > sell that by listening to pentions? cuz i dont. > another thing,aint no one in aw gonna boycot aw, believe me :) > > SWE > PS.please dont no one go flaming me. i repeat,aint no AW managment lover or > ass kisser! > [View Quote] -- Goober King What are they teaching kids these days?! rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu foxmccloudJan 8, 2002, 10:38pm
I'll still translated just for the record ;) (cause it's frustrating not to be able to understand a news message)
<I kept the original form which was directed to katerine> If you're interested (maybe you already knew about it, but others might be interested), there's an entirely french-speaking universe called cyberbrain (aka Village 3D), we've been there for 3 years and have quite a few citizens (not much compared to AW, but there's a good atmosphere overall :) ), and we won't ever change the prices (which are the same as in AW). Although, we're blocked at version 3.0 because the upgrade price is too much, 3.0 is ok anyway. The browser can be downloaded at www.levillage.org (we even have a weekly online newspaper and a monthly printed one, sold in kiosks ;) ) N.B. : I don't make any money out of this universe, but I'm one of the universe moderators (deputy to the mayor as we're called in our world) Fox Mc Cloud lilalpha phalphaJan 8, 2002, 10:44pm
Hehehe, if you really, really wanna read this just goto
"world.altavista.com" and you can translate it there. Nothing really important to us english users, tho. But just in case you were curious about what is said... LilAlpha Phalpha [View Quote] sweJan 8, 2002, 10:54pm
oh tis gonna be like that huh? lol well anyway its not my native language!i
am libyan,i was only boren in england,and lived there for a while :) and i know how to spell, i just am very tired,and dont really feel like using me head right now :). well anyway,u cant forget that microsoft was a small company,and yes they did come close to bankrupcy once. hells thats probelly the only reason they went to ibm for windows 1.0! an they did jack up there prices,check the price of win 95 or 98,then look at win2k pro,or xp pro! :) SWE [View Quote] bowenJan 8, 2002, 11:00pm
LoL the following is correct. Windows 95 was originally $100. Win 98, ME,
and 2K brought that to around $150. XP is now $200 for the home version. They seem to progressivly worse as you get on.. 2K was a good one though, as was 98SE. They really need to invest the time that they used to in developing a new product. It's seeming to take less then half a year for a new windows to come out over the past year and a half. --Bowen-- [View Quote] foxmccloudJan 8, 2002, 11:01pm
Is windows a paying product?
oops. Fox Mc Cloud "bowen" <bowen at omegauniverse.com> a écrit dans le message news: 3c3b9619$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com... > LoL the following is correct. Windows 95 was originally $100. Win 98, ME, > and 2K brought that to around $150. XP is now $200 for the home version. > They seem to progressivly worse as you get on.. 2K was a good one though, as > was 98SE. They really need to invest the time that they used to in > developing a new product. It's seeming to take less then half a year for a > new windows to come out over the past year and a half. > > --Bowen-- brantJan 8, 2002, 11:36pm
I'm sorry, Goober, but I'm getting tired of people continuing to rattle on
about how we need to "keep the community going," and that we "should perserve in the face of difficulties," and similar things. Since when is it solely our responsibility to keep AW running? If AW wants to raise the prices, then they should keep the community going. It's contridictory to disagree with the price raise, and then state that you will stick with AW "until the end." If you don't like AW, then leave - it's not your responsibility to maintain the community. Closing worlds WILL have an impact on AW, even if it's not immediately apparent. Unlike online games where the company pays people to design the game and you simply play through it, in AW citizens are the ones who create the content. Thus, by closing all of the French speaking worlds in the universe, perhaps a few French speakers will decide that AW simply isn't worth the money because nobody is around speaking French. In this regard, I find it ridiculous that AW management will be charging citizens these exorbitant fees to create content for their universe. Volunteering with no exchange of money is fine, and a minimal fee like the $20.00 a year is still acceptable, but is paying $10.00 a month to help out their business? Media executives pay people big bucks to do the sort of things that you do every day :) [View Quote] blastoJan 9, 2002, 12:13am
Oh come on! I'm serious here, you all sound like a bunch of wining babies!
(I'll try to make this post without swearing) Get real now! AWC can't help it if you guys are becoming unreal and won't accept the fact that they must raise the prices to stay in business or that they want to make money. If you owned AWC I'm sure you'd do as much as you could do get more money. If you can monopilise the business, then you sure as heck will! That's how life works! Don't boycott, you're just wasting your time typing like crazy thinking they actually care what you think! If you care that much to boycott against it, than they figure you must like it enough that you'll pay the cash anyway! Some people around here are just getting stupid! It doesn't help to yell at them about it. They would only get scared about it if you didn't say anything, shrugged your shoulders, and left AW without a problem. They know you love AW, they know you can't stay away and you spend every waking moment building in your worlds. They know that you were going to rebel and boycoot. That is why they also know that you will all come back and pay the money. It took me till just now to realise this but I now know exactly what they're getting at. You all love AW so much that you can't leave. If you make any more than $500 a year, chances are you'll spend $114 of it on AW. Even the teens can't leave, they'll mow lawns and get jobs to stay here. You're all addicted. Believe me, if you'll boycott like this and waste your time when you could be in AW enjoying your time while it lasts, you'll fork over $100 a year. [View Quote] foxmccloudJan 9, 2002, 2:33am
> [...] you'd do as much as you could do get more money.
> If you can monopilise the business, then you sure as heck > will! That's how life works! [...] Is really THAT your vision of life? Is really doing as much money as you can your goal in life? Don't you think there are things that are more important? Fox Mc Cloud foxmccloudJan 9, 2002, 2:33am
"lilalpha phalpha" <lilalpha_aw at yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message news: 3c3bc46b at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Finially, somone shares my point of view :) > > Lil *shivers* are there others like that out there? :P Fox Mc Cloud paulJan 9, 2002, 2:51am
if the price stays at 120 a year you watch and see if I don't leave come
May 2003. The majority of people are not going to pay that kid of money for a chat/building environment. There are other universes not to mention Adobe Atmosphere will continue to grow and improve since it is much more integrated into the web browser. I would like to see AWCom come to their senses and do some smart business management to get things back to normal, but if they want to raise their prices to a ridiculous level then let them. I can go else where and make my models and sell them. I like AW best but it won't kill me to leave. Paul [View Quote] foxmccloudJan 9, 2002, 3:00am
By the way, what are your impressions about Atmosphere?
I tried it a bit... and it... well... sucks. It's ugly and unintuitive (and I hate things integrated in the browser instead of a good old stand alone app that you have more control over) How does everyone feel about this? And what about other existing 3d chat programs? Fox Mc Cloud macbJan 9, 2002, 4:17am
AW was ugly and unintuitive when I started using it. I struggled and
struggled to get walls to line up, didn't know most of the object names. I went through a LONG learning curve with Truespace (plus it crashed regularly for me until R5). Anyway, Atmosphere will improve, and, unless they suddenly decide to can the project will have lots of money behind it to make it a success. They also seem to be listening to users.. very easy to engage them in a dialog. They even read and post to their own newsgroups (what a concept!!). There are a number of open source initiatives in the 3D area that will also eventually bear fruit. The fact that many of the animation studios are switching over to Linux based rendering engines... well what can that mean but more 3D stuff to choose from over there. IRC is alive and kicking after all these years, and the server and client software are rather sophisticated these days (and source code is downloadable). Rendering engine + Chat program + bit of glueware. I expect to see things for Linux, Apple, and maybe even Windoze in a year or so. Don't forget... we may be throwing away our PCs and using game consoles in the future. The X-box and Playstation future version will not only have 3D built in, but be full time internet connections with full blow operating systems (Linux). (Don't forget the graphics on the Playstation are Renderware already!) The PC really is becoming an appliance (look at those new Macs!!). The future is now my friends. As someone reminded me today.... I love AW. But the company as far as I can tell has cut itself off from its user base. It's been like that so long that I don't expect it to change. Ever. Boycott... strike... petition... fast... won't make any difference. They ain't listening. Sit back and watch, and wait. That's all we can do. Be on the lookout for other ways to spend your time. [View Quote] > By the way, what are your impressions about Atmosphere? > I tried it a bit... and it... well... sucks. It's ugly and unintuitive (and I hate things integrated in the browser instead of a > good old stand alone app that you have more control over) > > How does everyone feel about this? And what about other existing 3d chat programs? > > Fox Mc Cloud > > > foxmccloudJan 9, 2002, 4:45am
"macb" <zzzzz at zzzz.zzz> a écrit dans le message news: 3C3BE140.8020302 at zzzz.zzz...
> Don't forget... we may be throwing away our PCs and using game > consoles in the future. Uh... well, it won't be the case for me at least ;) It's too much a pleasure to build your own sweet computer, lovingly, carefully choosing each part and spending hours and hours monintoring benchmark sites.... :) Consoles are fun to a certain extent, but they just don't have the same goals as computers. As for what you said about AW, well, sure AW was ugly back in 1997 when I discovered it, but we're now in 2002, and if I understood well they don't support 3D cards? how can that be? That's a really stupid design decision in my opinion... Fox Mc Cloud sweJan 9, 2002, 5:35am
i agree,atmosphere really sucks, i mean up until i saw that(sometime in the
begining of summer) ,i used to complaim about aw's graphics :) SWE [View Quote] blastoJan 9, 2002, 12:03pm
*wonders in which direction this thread has gone and then suddenly points
south* LOL :-D [View Quote] goober kingJan 9, 2002, 12:12pm
I never said it was *solely* our responsibility to keep the company
above water. I'm sure AWC has some sort of plan (after all, you can't expect them to put on marketing campaigns and hire ad execs if they don't have any money, now can you? :P), and I'll continue to support them until I'm the last man standing. I've invested over five years of time and effort in this community and I'm not going to see it die just because a few panic-happy people are killing off their part of the community. Look at it this way (using your French world example): Where did the first French people come from? Whoever got the French portion of the AW community going obviously wasn't put off by the fact that there were no other French people. So just because a bunch of French worlds shut down does not mean that other French people won't come and pay. What do you think will happen? "Oh no!" Rick exclaims, "Three more worlds have gone red! Whatever shall we do?!" Get real, Brant. AWC has already gotten all the money it's going to get out of those worlds (until next year, at least), so why should they care if they close down? The only people who would care are the people who frequently visit that world, and I doubt they'd be very happy if the world owner shut it down simply because of a futile protest. Who do you think all the kiddies would blame if you decided to shut down AWTeen in protest, hmm? Do you expect Valve to create and maintain all the Halflife and Team Fortress clans? Do you expect the Everquest guys to run all the auctions for their in-game items? Do you think all the video game companies should be running IGN? The only responsibility AWC has is to the product, and to make sure it's the best damn product they can make. It's not their fault a community decided to spring up around their product. Don't get me wrong, they should still listen to us, since we use their product, but it's not as if I think they should be expected to run ComReg, AWHS, and everything else in the AW community. Simply put, AWC gets people to come here, the community *keeps* people coming here. That's how it's always been, and that's how it will always be. [View Quote] > I'm sorry, Goober, but I'm getting tired of people continuing to rattle on > about how we need to "keep the community going," and that we "should > perserve in the face of difficulties," and similar things. Since when is it > solely our responsibility to keep AW running? If AW wants to raise the > prices, then they should keep the community going. > > It's contridictory to disagree with the price raise, and then state that you > will stick with AW "until the end." If you don't like AW, then leave - it's > not your responsibility to maintain the community. > > Closing worlds WILL have an impact on AW, even if it's not immediately > apparent. Unlike online games where the company pays people to design the > game and you simply play through it, in AW citizens are the ones who create > the content. Thus, by closing all of the French speaking worlds in the > universe, perhaps a few French speakers will decide that AW simply isn't > worth the money because nobody is around speaking French. In this regard, I > find it ridiculous that AW management will be charging citizens these > exorbitant fees to create content for their universe. Volunteering with no > exchange of money is fine, and a minimal fee like the $20.00 a year is still > acceptable, but is paying $10.00 a month to help out their business? Media > executives pay people big bucks to do the sort of things that you do every > day :) > [View Quote] -- Goober King Vainly trying to hold back the tide of chaos with his pinky... rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu holistic1Jan 9, 2002, 12:57pm
Well put goober king.
Holistic1 [View Quote] > I never said it was *solely* our responsibility to keep the company > above water. I'm sure AWC has some sort of plan (after all, you can't > expect them to put on marketing campaigns and hire ad execs if they > don't have any money, now can you? :P), and I'll continue to support > them until I'm the last man standing. I've invested over five years of > time and effort in this community and I'm not going to see it die just > because a few panic-happy people are killing off their part of the > community. > > Look at it this way (using your French world example): Where did the > first French people come from? Whoever got the French portion of the AW > community going obviously wasn't put off by the fact that there were no > other French people. So just because a bunch of French worlds shut down > does not mean that other French people won't come and pay. > > What do you think will happen? "Oh no!" Rick exclaims, "Three more > worlds have gone red! Whatever shall we do?!" Get real, Brant. AWC has > already gotten all the money it's going to get out of those worlds > (until next year, at least), so why should they care if they close down? > The only people who would care are the people who frequently visit that > world, and I doubt they'd be very happy if the world owner shut it down > simply because of a futile protest. Who do you think all the kiddies > would blame if you decided to shut down AWTeen in protest, hmm? > > Do you expect Valve to create and maintain all the Halflife and Team > Fortress clans? Do you expect the Everquest guys to run all the auctions > for their in-game items? Do you think all the video game companies > should be running IGN? The only responsibility AWC has is to the > product, and to make sure it's the best damn product they can make. It's > not their fault a community decided to spring up around their product. > Don't get me wrong, they should still listen to us, since we use their > product, but it's not as if I think they should be expected to run > ComReg, AWHS, and everything else in the AW community. Simply put, AWC > gets people to come here, the community *keeps* people coming here. > That's how it's always been, and that's how it will always be. > [View Quote] brantJan 9, 2002, 1:01pm
[View Quote]
I never said that ALL of the french people in the entire universe would
leave instantly. I said that, perhaps, a few new citizens who know how to speak French and don't know much about computers will leave because they don't see any French worlds around. > > What do you think will happen? "Oh no!" Rick exclaims, "Three more > worlds have gone red! Whatever shall we do?!" Get real, Brant. AWC has > already gotten all the money it's going to get out of those worlds > (until next year, at least), so why should they care if they close down? > The only people who would care are the people who frequently visit that > world, and I doubt they'd be very happy if the world owner shut it down > simply because of a futile protest. Who do you think all the kiddies > would blame if you decided to shut down AWTeen in protest, hmm? I never said that AW's upper management would even know. How could they possibly keep track of such a thing? They might never notice that three citizens left, but in the end the act of shutting those worlds down will have contributed in some small way to showing their displeasure. Furthermore, if the visitors to these worlds are disgruntled, then all the better for the protest, because these French visitors might not stay around either if the worlds aren't up. Finally, AWTeen is a completely different type of entity that is owned by AWC and has nothing to do with a few french worlds shutting down, so it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. > > Do you expect Valve to create and maintain all the Halflife and Team > Fortress clans? Do you expect the Everquest guys to run all the auctions > for their in-game items? Do you think all the video game companies > should be running IGN? The only responsibility AWC has is to the > product, and to make sure it's the best damn product they can make. It's > not their fault a community decided to spring up around their product. > Don't get me wrong, they should still listen to us, since we use their > product, but it's not as if I think they should be expected to run > ComReg, AWHS, and everything else in the AW community. Simply put, AWC > gets people to come here, the community *keeps* people coming here. > That's how it's always been, and that's how it will always be. None of these examples fit the current situation. Sure, Halflife players create their own teams and clans, but they're not designing the acutal game; i.e. spending hours creating objects to create an arena. If all of the teams in Halflife fell apart, I'm sure that some people would be disgruntled, but most people would simply stay and play by themselves. In AW, the citizens create the objects and build the worlds themselves. If all the worlds by private citizens fell apart, then who would want to come to a Universe where there are no worlds or builds other than AlphaWorld GZ and other places made by AWC staff members? > [View Quote] sweJan 9, 2002, 1:50pm
Ya Goob. You tell him! Lol. Weren't you two best friends or something?
Well anyway AW. has over 800 worlds which were bought,so why would they care bout 3? You people have to realize that this isn't your fancy USA democracy crap no more. This is AW! Where protests don't matter :). And another thing, you can't expect AW to somehow make this universe work without any input from the community. We all have to get up, stop nagging, and help the community by telling your friends about AW, or advertising on your, and you friend's websites, or even street corner. Maybe even get your school to check out AW, and they can use it in computer classes, or for art and architecture and other stuff. SWE Nothing but a 15 year old. :) PS. hope u like my spelling Goob. Puncuated and spelt everything properly just for you. :) know stop complaining bout my spelling!!! [View Quote] holistic1Jan 9, 2002, 1:58pm
<snip>
[View Quote] > Nothing but a 15 year old. :) > > PS. hope u like my spelling Goob. Puncuated and spelt everything properly > just for you. :) know stop complaining bout my spelling!!! > We are proud of you...{pats swe on the head} :) Holistic1 [View Quote] goober kingJan 9, 2002, 3:44pm
Last I checked, friends were allowed disagree on things. Maybe it's
different in your neck of the woods, eh? :P And for the record, I wasn't just complaining about your spelling. :P [View Quote] > Ya Goob. You tell him! Lol. Weren't you two best friends or something? > > > Well anyway AW. has over 800 worlds which were bought,so why would they care > bout 3? You people have to realize that this isn't your fancy USA democracy > crap no more. This is AW! Where protests don't matter :). > And another thing, you can't expect AW to somehow make this universe work > without any input from the community. We all have to get up, stop nagging, > and help the community by telling your friends about AW, or advertising on > your, and you friend's websites, or even street corner. Maybe even get your > school to check out AW, and they can use it in computer classes, or for art > and architecture and other stuff. > > SWE > Nothing but a 15 year old. :) > > > PS. hope u like my spelling Goob. Puncuated and spelt everything properly > just for you. :) know stop complaining bout my spelling!!! > [View Quote] -- Goober King With friends like these... rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu goober kingJan 9, 2002, 8:57pm
I was complaining about your English, which includes all aspects of the
language, including grammar, punctuation, spelling, and sentence structure. I guess I need to complain about your reading comprehension skills too! ;P [View Quote] > ooh \:| and what else where u complaining bout? [View Quote] -- Goober King Wow... That was an Eep moment... rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu |