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Dec 18, 2001, 2:12am

I disagree with this statement - the community isn't going downhill; it's
becoming divided. Everything changes with time. Just because many of the
90s organizations are becoming inactive doesn't mean that there aren't newer
community groups sprouting up to replace them.

The reason these groups aren't being heard is because Activeworlds is
attracting a different clientell nowadays. Whereas AW used to be mainly for
the older crowd, many members of the younger generation are now joining AW.
Whether you personally feel that that's good or bad is up to you, but the
average age in AW has dropped and is still falling.

The problem with this trend is that there are many chronologically gifted
members of the community who look down upon the younger crowd for some
reason or another. If someone who's 30 or even 20 starts an organization,
then it's perceived as legitimate, while a similar group that's led by
someone age 15 or 16 is shunned. Similarly, the younger crowd for some
reason or another shuns organizations that are led by middle-aged citizens,
and those organizations fall apart due to lack of interest. Thus, both
groups are set against each other, even if it's not a conscious battle.
Everyone has expressed this opinion at one time or another. Newbies are
affected by a similar disdain: people look down upon newbies because many
of them, in their inexperience, appear childish and juvenile.

That said, whereas the older generation created the lasting organizations
and landmarks of AW in its earlier days, most of the long-standing
organizations I see today are headed by younger members of the community.
To prove this, look at the length of the two most recent threads relating to
AWTeen, the TrekkerX debate and the XelNaga debate. I agree that a lot of
what was posted there shouldn't have been posted to the newsgroups, but
there are more replies to those threads in one day than there have been
since in a week or longer! And after those threads were done, more began
about forming a new government - how many organizations do you know where
the members care enough to want to improve them in such a drastic way?
These threads aren't limited to AWTeen - I was just using them to prove a
point. There are other threads where younger members of the community start
towns or cities or begin new worlds, and generally those debates last much
longer than all the others.

There are also many younger community leaders who don't post on the
newsgroups, and therefore these organizations aren't known by those who do
post here. When such posts about these communties are made, long-time
posters tell the owners to "mind their own business" and to stop cluttering
the newsgroups with their "garbage." One poster said that we don't discuss
AlphaWorld in particular here; yet, several posts were made in the thread
below about how AW and Mars could be improved, while those related to
improving other worlds were flamed! The newsgroup charter says nothing
about which particular communities in AW should be discussed on the
community newsgroup.

In short, the community isn't going downhill. The community is greater than
ever, yet many members refuse to accept that those younger than them can
create lasting organizations. I do feel, however, that the community will
initiate its downfaull by continuing this unjustified age-related prejudice.
It is my sincerest hope that everyone, not just citizens of a particular
age, can once again work together to help improve Activeworlds and restore
the community feeling. Exactly how is another matter, but a new building
world with different objects or a different event isn't going to magically
solve the problem. As the problem developed over time, the solution will
also take time.

I posted this message in a separate thread because it's completely different
than the others in the previous thread, and because after witnessing this
change for several months, I'm interested in hearing opinions on this topic.

[View Quote]

Dec 18, 2001, 4:00am

It doesn't take a psychology major to see why there's such a vast divide
between the "older" and "younger" clientele of AW. It's simply a matter
of perceptions and maturity. The older crowd sees the younger group as
"idiot kids", running around doing whatever fancies them until their
attention wanders somewhere else (And hey, it's their prerogative to be
that way). Meanwhile, the younger crowd sees the older group as a bunch
of no-life old fogies who are way too anal about AW and need to "lighten
up" (Hell, they may be right on some instances). As long as these
perceptions persist, then this divide will only continue to grow.

Unfortunately, there's only two ways to fix this: 1) The older folks
"dumb down" to the younger level or 2) the younger folks "grow up" to
the older level. Of course, both sides are too set in their ways (and in
some cases aren't even capable of changing even if they wanted to) to
bring about this change.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not real crazy about the younger
clientele, myself, but years of experience with said clientele haven't
exactly made the best of impressions on me. I've been in AW for over 5
years now, and of those five years, I've been running UTN for almost 3.
In that time, I've seen tons of towns, worlds, and orgs come and go in
the blink of an eye. Why? Lack of commitment. Who? On the whole, the
majority of them were the younger citizens (the "12 yr olds", as I call
them). The basic reasoning was that either a) They didn't become popular
fast enough, b) it stopped being "fun" or became "boring" or c) they
just plain forgot about it and moved on to something else (blame it on
short attention span if you must).

There's a large difference between taking an interest in the community
(e.g. AWTeen-ers wanting a new government) and actually committing to
it. Tell me, of the people who are clammoring for a new government, how
many of them are willing to actually be a part of it (besides
participating in votes)? How many of them are willing to take the time
to commit to a job such as the one Core does? I predict not that many
(Note: I said "commit" to the job, not just wanting to sign up for it).

Granted, there have been exceptions to the rule (SW City, KAH's
operation, and ABN come to mind), but unfortunately, they have been in
the minority. Until the younger generation can prove that it's willing
to step up and be an active, *committed* part of the community, the
older crowd will continue to scoff at them, because in the back of their
heads, they automatically assume they will fail. At the same time, the
younger ones see the old ones "wasting" all their time in AW being busy
with who-knows-what and are therefore percieved as "uncool", rarely
realizing that if it wasn't for all the old people running around,
they'd have nothing to do in the first place.

So what's the solution to all this? I don't claim to have the answers,
but I'd like to think a little education goes along way. Perhaps if the
younger ones knew *how* exactly to get involved in the community, then
perhaps we'd see more successful, younger orgs and communities (As an
example, Cosmo saying he wants to model, but doesn't know how. There are
ways to learn, y'know!). Of course, in order to do that, the younger
generation needs to display a willingness to learn, and the older
generation needs to bridge the gap and let the younger ones know that
help is at hand.

It's what I tried to start with the Community Building dept in AWUniv,
but unfortunately, due to lack of participation, it as so far gone
under-utilized. If any of you older folks want to see this divide
shortened, then why not help out? Help teach a course, or even start one
of your own! Let me or kellee know and we'll set you up pronto!

Sorry for the plug, but until anyone else comes up with a better
solution, that's all I can think of. Now the question is, how willing is
the older crowd to step up and break out of the "anal" shell? C'mon,
folks. I know a lot of you guys have plenty of talents to offer, but
have just been "too busy" or "can't be bothered". Frankly, I'm
predicting that I won't get much of a response, regardless of what I
say. Still, if you people are so worried about this "divide", then I
challenge you to prove me wrong.

[View Quote] > I disagree with this statement - the community isn't going downhill; it's
> becoming divided. Everything changes with time. Just because many
of the
> 90s organizations are becoming inactive doesn't mean that there
aren't newer
> community groups sprouting up to replace them.
>
> The reason these groups aren't being heard is because Activeworlds is
> attracting a different clientell nowadays. Whereas AW used to be
mainly for
> the older crowd, many members of the younger generation are now
joining AW.
> Whether you personally feel that that's good or bad is up to you, but the
> average age in AW has dropped and is still falling.
>
> The problem with this trend is that there are many chronologically gifted
> members of the community who look down upon the younger crowd for some
> reason or another. If someone who's 30 or even 20 starts an
organization,
> then it's perceived as legitimate, while a similar group that's led by
> someone age 15 or 16 is shunned. Similarly, the younger crowd for some
> reason or another shuns organizations that are led by middle-aged
citizens,
> and those organizations fall apart due to lack of interest. Thus, both
> groups are set against each other, even if it's not a conscious battle.
> Everyone has expressed this opinion at one time or another. Newbies are
> affected by a similar disdain: people look down upon newbies because
many
> of them, in their inexperience, appear childish and juvenile.
>

> <snip Brant rant>



--
Goober King
He DOUBLE dares you, so nyah! :P
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Dec 18, 2001, 4:39am

GK, maybe the reason that the community building program hasn't taken off is
because of lack of advertising? I myself has forgotten about it until you
mentioned it. *sheepish shrug*

Anywho, while I wish I could say something profound and meaningful here, and
I can't think of anything at the moment, let me just tell you that this
divide isn't the only symptom to our problem.

There is also a larger user base of Active Worlds than there was 5 years
ago. With a larger user base, you get more diverse people and more
diversified opinions. Most people will stick to those opinions and the
potential for conflict becomes greater. There's nothing we can do about
that. In fact, I submit that this generation gap is just a manifestation of
this. As more people come to AW, the more we perceive that there are more
idiot newbie teenagers than mature adults. Why? Cause these noobs tend to
stick out more in our minds because quite frankly and in all sincerety, many
have big dirty mouths.

A woman, who has the excentricity of L'uxianna Troi, is a client at the
computer shop I work for and has Active Worlds 3.1 on her computer. That
pretty much tells you she was a tourist. Now I live out in the middle of
nowhere in a town that is comparable to the hillbillie villages of yore in
southern missouri. Please tell me how she got a hold of Active Worlds? To
conclude this wild tangent, AW is reaching a far wider audience than we give
Rick and JP credit for. It's not just the web savvy teen-geeks, but web
savvy adults as well. :)

We can't go back to the good ol' days. There's no way we can. But we can
adapt to this new age and try to make a better community out of AW that way,
instead of attempting to regress to an earlier state.
--
SW Chris
"Go grab the warsh off the clothesline b'fore the dew sets on it."

Dec 19, 2001, 8:50pm

[View Quote] I've never seen adults anyone as an "old fogie". What exactly *is* a fogie,
anyways?

> Unfortunately, there's only two ways to fix this: 1) The older folks
> "dumb down" to the younger level or 2) the younger folks "grow up" to
> the older level. Of course, both sides are too set in their ways (and in
> some cases aren't even capable of changing even if they wanted to) to
> bring about this change.

I disagree - differences are what *make* the community. Why change?

> I'll be the first to admit that I'm not real crazy about the younger
> clientele, myself, but years of experience with said clientele haven't
> exactly made the best of impressions on me. I've been in AW for over 5
> years now, and of those five years, I've been running UTN for almost 3.
> In that time, I've seen tons of towns, worlds, and orgs come and go in
> the blink of an eye. Why? Lack of commitment. Who? On the whole, the
> majority of them were the younger citizens (the "12 yr olds", as I call
> them). The basic reasoning was that either a) They didn't become popular
> fast enough, b) it stopped being "fun" or became "boring" or c) they
> just plain forgot about it and moved on to something else (blame it on
> short attention span if you must).

I'm not social or ambitious enough to run any kind of organization or town,
in reality (tried - failed). I do my best work just building somewhere off
by myself. Again, these kinds of differences are what makes the community
interesting.

> There's a large difference between taking an interest in the community
> (e.g. AWTeen-ers wanting a new government) and actually committing to
> it. Tell me, of the people who are clammoring for a new government, how
> many of them are willing to actually be a part of it (besides
> participating in votes)? How many of them are willing to take the time
> to commit to a job such as the one Core does? I predict not that many
> (Note: I said "commit" to the job, not just wanting to sign up for it).

And you would? Some people just have other things to do (note: not better,
*other*) than devote much of their time to such a project. That doesn't mean
that they don't fully support their words. Try to remember that this is not
the real world we're talking about.

> Granted, there have been exceptions to the rule (SW City, KAH's
> operation, and ABN come to mind), but unfortunately, they have been in
> the minority. Until the younger generation can prove that it's willing
> to step up and be an active, *committed* part of the community, the
> older crowd will continue to scoff at them, because in the back of their
> heads, they automatically assume they will fail. At the same time, the
> younger ones see the old ones "wasting" all their time in AW being busy
> with who-knows-what and are therefore percieved as "uncool", rarely
> realizing that if it wasn't for all the old people running around,
> they'd have nothing to do in the first place.

I find conversation with adults *much* more apealing than conversations with
my age group, and, on a whole, the adult community does look down upon the
younger generation. An ancient prejudice, but it's going nowhere fast.

> So what's the solution to all this? I don't claim to have the answers,
> but I'd like to think a little education goes along way. Perhaps if the
> younger ones knew *how* exactly to get involved in the community, then
> perhaps we'd see more successful, younger orgs and communities (As an
> example, Cosmo saying he wants to model, but doesn't know how. There are
> ways to learn, y'know!). Of course, in order to do that, the younger
> generation needs to display a willingness to learn, and the older
> generation needs to bridge the gap and let the younger ones know that
> help is at hand.

I agree. The negativity between both groups is astounding - that needs to
change.

> It's what I tried to start with the Community Building dept in AWUniv,
> but unfortunately, due to lack of participation, it as so far gone
> under-utilized. If any of you older folks want to see this divide
> shortened, then why not help out? Help teach a course, or even start one
> of your own! Let me or kellee know and we'll set you up pronto!
>
> Sorry for the plug, but until anyone else comes up with a better
> solution, that's all I can think of. Now the question is, how willing is
> the older crowd to step up and break out of the "anal" shell? C'mon,
> folks. I know a lot of you guys have plenty of talents to offer, but
> have just been "too busy" or "can't be bothered". Frankly, I'm
> predicting that I won't get much of a response, regardless of what I
> say. Still, if you people are so worried about this "divide", then I
> challenge you to prove me wrong.

People seem to subconciously look for differences, no matter what. I doubt
that the narrow-mindedness will cease.

Dec 20, 2001, 1:22am

Luc and MM replied saying that they thought the event was a great idea and
to get started organizing it. I'm going to tenatively schedule it for
either December 29 or 30.

The point of the event, shred, would be to prove to both groups that these
stereotypes aren't true and that these misconceptions help nobody. We'll
just have to see how it goes :)

[View Quote]

Dec 20, 2001, 2:11am

[View Quote] > Luc and MM replied saying that they thought the event was a great idea and
> to get started organizing it. I'm going to tenatively schedule it for
> either December 29 or 30.
>
> The point of the event, shred, would be to prove to both groups that these
> stereotypes aren't true and that these misconceptions help nobody. We'll
> just have to see how it goes :)


Exellent idea, Brant. Good luck, you'll need it :-)

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