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Sep 11, 2001, 5:54pm

We have been enjoying the luxeries of VIRTUAL REALITY Universes &
Worlds... And in these communities we don't ever have to see many of
the things that beset the real universe and the real world called
EARTH.

But what has happened in New York City [AND YES... It does affect
Broadway] is tottaly not ok. And the things that happened in
Washington DC is still not OK. ALSO what happened in PA is also not OK.

ALL of this CRAP [In this times i am sure that you will allow for these
words] to continue. BUT for the most immediate things will be for all
the people that are NOT seriously affected by all of this to join hands
and PRAY for LOVE and PEACE. And when whoever is found that caused all
of this mess they should be hunted down until dead.


REAL STREET NAME = Gerald Kieffer

Sep 11, 2001, 6:15pm

That may have been the most eloquent thing to ever come from your
fingertips. Still, I'd like to think there was no single person who was
*not* somehow affected by all of this. We must pray, not just for the
victims and families, but for the sanity and resolve of this nation. Now
is the time that we need to show the world that we will not be
intimidated by terrorists and that we *will* find who is responsible and
deliver them swift justice.

[View Quote] > We have been enjoying the luxeries of VIRTUAL REALITY Universes &
> Worlds... And in these communities we don't ever have to see many of
> the things that beset the real universe and the real world called
> EARTH.
>
> But what has happened in New York City [AND YES... It does affect
> Broadway] is tottaly not ok. And the things that happened in
> Washington DC is still not OK. ALSO what happened in PA is also not OK.
>
> ALL of this CRAP [In this times i am sure that you will allow for these
> words] to continue. BUT for the most immediate things will be for all
> the people that are NOT seriously affected by all of this to join hands
> and PRAY for LOVE and PEACE. And when whoever is found that caused all
> of this mess they should be hunted down until dead.
>
>
> REAL STREET NAME = Gerald Kieffer
>
>


--
Goober King
Saddle up... Lock and load... We are at war...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Sep 11, 2001, 6:56pm

Thank-You Goober

I will stand behind my real name = Gerald Kieffer
and NOT a screen mname in times like this as this happened to a very
real universe & world.

I wish the best of everyone that is still alive & not having any
relitives or friends that were caught in that mess any any way.

This is a time that we all must come together in all Universes & Worlds
and help us all deal with this mess.


"goober king" <rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote in
news:3B9E6ED9.4020301 at acsu.buffalo.edu:

> That may have been the most eloquent thing to ever come from your
> fingertips. Still, I'd like to think there was no single person who
> was *not* somehow affected by all of this. We must pray, not just for
> the victims and families, but for the sanity and resolve of this
> nation. Now is the time that we need to show the world that we will
> not be intimidated by terrorists and that we *will* find who is
> responsible and
> deliver them swift justice.
>
[View Quote]

Sep 11, 2001, 7:44pm

Hmmmm .... "join hands and PRAY for LOVE and PEACE. And when whoever is
found that caused all of this mess they should be hunted down until dead."
What an interesting concept of "LOVE and PEACE" you have. Did you think this
through before you posted it or did you simply want to get your holy opinion
in everyones face?

Considering the huge loss of life and the global ramifications of the
inevitable retaliation, I think it would be more prudent to keep your
personal views to yourself and leave people to have their own private
thoughts on the matter.

AW encompasses many different cultures, beliefs and sympathies, some of
which are mutually exclusive. It IS a virtual community, free-er from the
malices and persecutions present in the real world - based partly on
escapism. While I share billions of other people's abhorence and sympathies
in this matter, this isn't the forum for anyone to get on their soap box and
push their beliefs, their politics and religious tendencies down the throats
of other members.

Geesh!



[View Quote]

Sep 11, 2001, 9:14pm

[View Quote] What holy opinion? Are you perchance one of the less than 5% of the worlds'
population that actually believes there is no God or some radical left wing
Church/State separatist?

>
> Considering the huge loss of life and the global ramifications of the
> inevitable retaliation, I think it would be more prudent to keep your
> personal views to yourself and leave people to have their own private
> thoughts on the matter.

I believe that's what this thread was for... to express those throughts

>
> AW encompasses many different cultures, beliefs and sympathies, some of
> which are mutually exclusive. It IS a virtual community, free-er from the
> malices and persecutions present in the real world - based partly on
> escapism. While I share billions of other people's abhorence and
sympathies
> in this matter, this isn't the forum for anyone to get on their soap box
and
> push their beliefs, their politics and religious tendencies down the
throats
> of other members.

He is NOT pushing any beliefs, politics, or religious tendencies. He is NOT
saying that you have to pray, be saved, blah blah blah. What he is saying
is that whoever did this deserves justice and death. He is saluting those
who died and were injured today, and those who saved lives. You do the
people of the United States a disservice by posting this in this thread. If
you are looking to start a religious war, take it to Palestine where people
are dancing and celebrating in the streets. Now tone it down before I get
ticked off!
--
Chris
Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master?
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

Sep 11, 2001, 9:18pm

The people that caused all this mess in the USA should go free with
just a little warrning of "Please don't do that again?" Hardly. To me
i would support an all out WAR if that is what it takes to punish these
others that have no concept of life. It would be like someone going to
your house & all of your friends houses and relitive houses and killing
everyone EXCEPT you and saying to you Heheheheee!!!!!

now what would be your response... I LOVE YOU?

No you would want to have their heads on some platter and feed to the
sewer rats that live under some city street. At least you will be
taking care of some poor animals.

BUT for all of the rest of us that are left here with the living that
we should all join hands and pray for love and peace that nothing like
this should ever happen to them as wheat took place in MY HOME STATE...
I live in New York State. But i do live some 300 miles [482 km] away
from New York City [Syracuse, NY]. BUT our "Boys From Syracuse" are
one of the nations largest F16 Military Air Force bases in the USA and
took part of the bombings against Saddam... And today they were called
again [according to our local news apx 30 of them] were put into the
air throughtout the day. I am APPALLED by seeing this happen in my HOME
STATE and my HOME COUNTRY. that is why i would love to see anyone that
was responsible for the cause of this mess to be hunted down until
dead.


"grimble" <grimble2000 at btinternet.com> wrote in
news:3b9e85d5 at server1.Activeworlds.com:

> Hmmmm .... "join hands and PRAY for LOVE and PEACE. And when
> whoever is found that caused all of this mess they should be hunted
> down until dead." What an interesting concept of "LOVE and PEACE" you
> have. Did you think this through before you posted it or did you
> simply want to get your holy opinion in everyones face?
>
> Considering the huge loss of life and the global ramifications of the
> inevitable retaliation, I think it would be more prudent to keep your
> personal views to yourself and leave people to have their own private
> thoughts on the matter.
>
> AW encompasses many different cultures, beliefs and sympathies, some
> of which are mutually exclusive. It IS a virtual community, free-er
> from the malices and persecutions present in the real world - based
> partly on escapism. While I share billions of other people's
> abhorence and sympathies in this matter, this isn't the forum for
> anyone to get on their soap box and push their beliefs, their
> politics and religious tendencies down the throats of other members.
>
> Geesh!
>
>
>
[View Quote]

Sep 11, 2001, 9:51pm

Yes, some sick bastard somewhere in this world orchestrated this attacks and
he deserves to fucking die in the most painful way we can muster. A little
irony would be nice too. A US bomber pilot, his plane critically damaged
orders the rest of his flight crew to eject, and pokes himself right through
that fucker's office. They find his skeleton days later pinned beneath the
nosecone of an American B-1B. The last radio contact with the aircraft was
the pilot screaming "FOR FREEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!"


[View Quote]

Sep 11, 2001, 11:34pm

Everyone is entitled to his or her own oppinion, and they are permitted to
post it on these NGs. Calm down.

BCG

[View Quote]

Sep 11, 2001, 11:44pm

Oh well, here we go....

First off, I meant no disservice to the US emergency services or the people
that were directly affected by the attack including the thousands of dead
and injured. For some reason you chose to take the post that way, which you
are entitled to do I guess, but its dumb if you ask me - read the words. And
if you can find a "salute" to anything in the original post as opposed to a
reactionary rant, then well done!

"5% of the worlds' population that actually believes there is no God"
implies that you think that people's beliefs are black and white - one of
the roots of extremist views in itself. I have no convictions either way
about God's existence - but no God plays a part in my life. The two
contentious lines of the post were just indicating my irritation that those
who DO feel the need to have a God in their life expect or call on others to
share their beliefs.

I am mainstream English, lived in the UK all my life and as such am a
supporter of Democracy and Capitalism. I am as shocked by this attrocity as
anyone - I spend 50% of my time working within 150 miles of NYC so its a lot
closer to home for me than it may initially seem.

As for comments like "whoever did this deserves justice and death" is just
hypocrytical. Whoever did this didn't do it just because they were bored one
Tuesday morning - they believe that the US has comitted a crime for which
they feel they need to be punished. Even our western over-enthusiastic media
acknowledge this. The act itslef is extremism gone mad, but so is an instant
call for fatal retaliation except that can hide behind a semi-justifyable
mask after the events.

What scares me is what comes next ... Dubya will have the unconditional
support of 80% of key European nations for both hunting down the culprits
and, to some extent, in executing the retaliation. However, what the hell is
the US going to gain from taking out a few extremists? Very little I would
imagine. Dubya has recently disclosed a list of what he discribes as "Rogue
States" ... basically Middle Eastern countries that he doesn't like because
they have a beef with the US. Its reasonably certain that the retaliation,
in order to get the desired message across, will NOT be focussed to the
perpetrators - it would have to be swift and it would have to be public. The
US have been here before (Reagan ... Tripoli ... no proof ... ring a bell?),
and THAT scares me because there are too many of these countries that would
love to join in the melee to get a piece of America for its trophy cabinet.
And guess what ... we ALL get dragged in!

An extremist reaction to an extremist attack is going to cause more problems
in the long term than it solves in the short term. Time for Dubya to show
that he has the balls to stand up to his Generals ... 'cuz otherwise we're
all f**ked because you could see what the head of the Joint Chiefs was
thinking when he said that the US military was "ready". They do like to play
with their maps and models those guys.

BTW ... all the reports I have seen, on four different news channels,
clearly stated that the vast majority of palestinians were NOT happy about
either the attacks on the US or the impending retaliation. They are more
concerned about the additional hell this will bring into their lives. Israel
already seem to have used the apparent need for increased security as an
excuse to attack and take over a palestinian town. Any that were
"celebrating" are no doubt pretty pissed that the US refuse to show an even
hand in the Middle East and condemn the attrocities performed BY Israel as
well as those performed AGAINST Israel.

Sep 12, 2001, 12:08am

Well... That is my opinion of what has happened to some major tragedy
that has beset MY HOME STATE and MY COUNTRY. It would be the same if
it was most anyones country and a city or town or villiage near to
where they live. BUT in my case it happened to MY HOME STATE and MY
HOME COUNTRY got attacked by idots bent on human destruction & building
destruction and human spirit destruction. and i'm one of those that i
feel sick that these idiots did this. If anyone hired these attackers
then i would want them string up until dead. Tim McVey can't do anyone
any more harm as he is now DEAD. And that is why these idiots need to
be hunted down and when found KILL THEM DEAD.

And that is why i do not hide behind a screen name...
I'll go in there with my STREET NAME.
Gerald Kieffer


"bcg" <Aquisclone at aol.com> wrote in
news:3b9ebbaf at server1.Activeworlds.com:

> Everyone is entitled to his or her own oppinion, and they are
> permitted to post it on these NGs. Calm down.
>
> BCG
>
[View Quote]

Sep 12, 2001, 1:37am

Bloody hell then. Since you have all this pent up frustration with the
United States, don't take it out on JFK2. That's what I'm saying. Why
should the innocent pay for the perceived wrongs of a few? My government is
not at issue. It's not perfect. Nobody's is. If what you're saying is
that America was asking for it, I've got news for you.. Nobody deserves
what has happened today. I mean nobody. Ten thousand estimated dead I
wouldn't wish on Bin Laden himself. And those dead didn't even do anything!
All they did was show up to work.

Your attack on JFK2 and what you perceive to be his beliefs is at issue
here. Don't deflect attention from that.
--
Chris
Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master?
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

[View Quote]

Sep 12, 2001, 1:53am

Very well spoken

--
"_
|
/\
\ /
__/ /_

Sep 12, 2001, 5:50am

Geesh! NO ... I'm just looking through all the single-minded crap that's
going on right now. I appreciate that everyone in the US is horrified, as
any nation would be at a time like this, but making calls-to-arms like that
is just plain narrow-minded and dumb.

NOT being American, I can see a bigger picture without the personal
distractions.and the quandary that now faces the western world as a whole.
There is no sense in trying to believe that the US media is going to give
anything but subjective coverage to this so I wouldn't recommend basing your
views the "facts" they provide unless you want to get caught up in patriotic
hysteria (which is yet more extremism).

Somewhere in there you see "pent up frustration" with the US ... again, NO.
If you read it properly, without the disfigured slant that you insist on
putting on it, the only references I make to any US activities past and
present are:

(a) Reagan bombed Libya on the basis of a SUSPICION that Gadaffi was
responsible for a much, much smaller scale attack - this is history. A
Republican acting in response to an attack on the US and wanting to
retaliate - basically the position we are faced with today. Assuming Bin
Laden is responsible, the US have made it clear that if Afghanistan stand in
their way then they will wage war on them too. This isn't a threat against
Bin Laden or even the Taliban ... its a (very dangerous) threat against
Islam - something that will destroy the multi-racial societies in many
powerful countries around the world (many of which are allied to the US) and
inevitably end in disaster. A very high price to pay for US vengence.

(b) Bush has shown from Day 1 that he has little knowledge of viable foreign
policy and at a time of war, unless he grows some morals, common-sense,
foresight and a hefty pair of testicles, then the military will be running
the show. The absence of politics at a time of conflict is ALWAYS a bad
idea.

(c) An uneven hand in the middle east - which just backing up the point
regarding your ill-informed comment about all the palestinians "dancing in
the streets".

The US government IS an issue, since OUR fate now rests in their hands.
Hopefully, not just in the hands of the likes of Henry "gimme some action"
Shelton because that will be a catastrophic day for the world. The Cuban
Missile Crisis was only resolved through JFK (a Democrat) standing up to the
military and avoiding the incursions and air strikes on the silos, so lets
all hope that Bush can break with the war-mongering ethic that US
Republicans have a reputation for deal with this situation in a manner that
is appropriate to the global good. Now is NOT the time for American
patriotism and lust for vengence to dictate the fate of the rest of the
world.

As for my "attack" on JFK2, I believe you stated in your first reply that
this is a place for sharing views. Well, in my view, it was an unnecessary
self-righteous rant that doesn't belong in in a global forum. Also, if JFK2
is a God-fearing American, how does a call for violent revenge fit in with
his religious beliefs? Is that blunt enough for you?



[View Quote]

Sep 12, 2001, 12:12pm

[View Quote] I'm going to assume for a moment that Osama Bin Laden is the culprit here,
which he likely is. He has MANY terrorist actions against the US to his
credit.

3 US Embassies
1 USN Destroyer
1 Failed attack on WTC NY
3-4 destroyed buildings in WTC NY, including both towers
1 attempted attack on the White House which ended up hitting the Pentagon
instead
1 attempted attack on Camp David that ended up in a Pennsylvania field
At LEAST 10,000 people over a decade murdered

If this is not a situation that warrents the full military intervention of
the entire world to stop attacks on innocents, American or not, I don't know
what is. Sure, he's only one man with one organization. Who cares if he
keeps killing Americans, it's an American problem. But what's to stop others
from following his example and putting planes, car bombs, god knows what
else into London, Paris, Moscow, Berlin, Bejing, Tokyo, maybe even your
home town. If the United States were the only nation subject to terrorism,
the US would no doubt act alone in retaliation, but SOMEONE needs to show
the sick fucks of the world that they can't do whatever the hell they please
to anyone they want.

If he had killed soldiers that were actively threatening him, it would be
another issue entirely. But, offensive action against civilians is forbidden
by the Geneva convention, and is a war crime. NOBODY that kills innocents
should be allowed to live, and though he played no direct hand in the murder
and sat in his office in Afghan watching it unfold on TV, he is still at
fault.



It's not an American issue, it's a world issue. You can't EVER expect peace
with this kind of ASS killing hundreds in seconds and thousands in hours.

Sep 12, 2001, 5:50pm

When i state that i want all of these people that did this mess in New
York City which just happens to be MY USA Country as well hunted down
until dead i only want the people that pulled the gun and fired so to
speak. Someone that was standing there shouting NO NO DON't are the
innocent people that should not be hunted down. They like us in the
USA dislike this mess. Only those that actually OR the GOVERNMENT
LEADERS that allow to say to some crimiinal "HI Good Pal!" "You May
Stay In Our Country Forever" and if that government leader is a
peresident or some lesser government official... THEN they are
included. In every country you will find many hundreds upon thousands
and even millions that dissagree what their government does. These
people are the innocent ones that shold not be harmed. ONLY those that
actually are allowing the real criminals [KILLERS} to go and KILL
others for whatever reson. AND they don't have any reguards to life.
From babies to little kids to older people are killed, maimed, sickened
as i am yesterday and now, and people that used to be quite healthy
will forever be maimed in some way by these idiots... THEY ARE THE ONES
and any GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS that are housing these criminals are the
ones that should be hunted down until dead. ALL OTHERS.... The
innocent people in whatever country that houses the criminals are to be
spared. They do not want these people in their mists but they often
can't do much because the governments officials have the most say who
stays in a country and not & not some citizen of that country. I don't
want to see any innocent citizen counted in a blanket overall guilty as
the government may be. NOPE NOPE NOPE that is wrong. ONLY the NAMED
government officials that are actually allowing for the criminals to
stay in a country and the criminals themselves.

AND because so many USA people have been killed here in my NEW YORK
STATE and in my USA COUNTRY i will not hide behind a screen name and
thus will proudly display my real street name instead.

REAL NAME = Gerald Kieffer



"grimble" <grimble2000 at btinternet.com> wrote in
news:3b9ebdf8$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com:

> Oh well, here we go....
>
> First off, I meant no disservice to the US emergency services or the
> people that were directly affected by the attack including the
> thousands of dead and injured. For some reason you chose to take the
> post that way, which you are entitled to do I guess, but its dumb if
> you ask me - read the words. And if you can find a "salute" to
> anything in the original post as opposed to a reactionary rant, then
> well done!
>
> "5% of the worlds' population that actually believes there is no God"
> implies that you think that people's beliefs are black and white -
> one of the roots of extremist views in itself. I have no convictions
> either way about God's existence - but no God plays a part in my
> life. The two contentious lines of the post were just indicating my
> irritation that those who DO feel the need to have a God in their
> life expect or call on others to share their beliefs.
>
> I am mainstream English, lived in the UK all my life and as such am a
> supporter of Democracy and Capitalism. I am as shocked by this
> attrocity as anyone - I spend 50% of my time working within 150 miles
> of NYC so its a lot closer to home for me than it may initially seem.
>
> As for comments like "whoever did this deserves justice and death" is
> just hypocrytical. Whoever did this didn't do it just because they
> were bored one Tuesday morning - they believe that the US has
> comitted a crime for which they feel they need to be punished. Even
> our western over-enthusiastic media acknowledge this. The act itslef
> is extremism gone mad, but so is an instant call for fatal
> retaliation except that can hide behind a semi-justifyable mask after
> the events.
>
> What scares me is what comes next ... Dubya will have the
> unconditional support of 80% of key European nations for both hunting
> down the culprits and, to some extent, in executing the retaliation.
> However, what the hell is the US going to gain from taking out a few
> extremists? Very little I would imagine. Dubya has recently disclosed
> a list of what he discribes as "Rogue States" ... basically Middle
> Eastern countries that he doesn't like because they have a beef with
> the US. Its reasonably certain that the retaliation, in order to get
> the desired message across, will NOT be focussed to the perpetrators
> - it would have to be swift and it would have to be public. The US
> have been here before (Reagan ... Tripoli ... no proof ... ring a
> bell?), and THAT scares me because there are too many of these
> countries that would love to join in the melee to get a piece of
> America for its trophy cabinet. And guess what ... we ALL get dragged
> in!
>
> An extremist reaction to an extremist attack is going to cause more
> problems in the long term than it solves in the short term. Time for
> Dubya to show that he has the balls to stand up to his Generals ...
> 'cuz otherwise we're all f**ked because you could see what the head
> of the Joint Chiefs was thinking when he said that the US military
> was "ready". They do like to play with their maps and models those
> guys.
>
> BTW ... all the reports I have seen, on four different news channels,
> clearly stated that the vast majority of palestinians were NOT happy
> about either the attacks on the US or the impending retaliation. They
> are more concerned about the additional hell this will bring into
> their lives. Israel already seem to have used the apparent need for
> increased security as an excuse to attack and take over a palestinian
> town. Any that were "celebrating" are no doubt pretty pissed that the
> US refuse to show an even hand in the Middle East and condemn the
> attrocities performed BY Israel as well as those performed AGAINST
> Israel.

Sep 12, 2001, 6:06pm

In this seperate note I personally do not have any family or relitives
that are affected in the NY World Trade Center mess...

BUT i do have on my ICQ list someone by the name of
RADIOACTIVE SLUG [screen name] who lives in Canada has a cousin that
was working at or near the 100th floor of The World Trade Center #2 at
the time of the plane crash. NOT only that but his neice's dad was on
the plane [to the best of his & her's knowledge] that actually hit The
World Trade Center #2.

AND I was chatting with him all night long consoling him and
councelling him in his grief. He even threatened to walk if necessary
to NYC and say he is in the Canadian Army so they would allow him to
get in there closer than regular people so he could do a hand search
for his cousin & his neice's dad if that was possible.

He came tottaly unglued no matter what i could have done about 4am
Eastern USA time earlier today and he has not been on-line since. So
right now i have no way to contact him as i believe he is somehow
trying to act on his belief on trying to find his cousin in The World
Trade Center #2 building. His source of news was CNN.

So YES.... I do know someone that is on my ICQ list that is involved
with The World Trade Center #1 & #2 Attack On The USA.

THERE might be another victim as well...
FriendPA lives in PA but has a daughter that goes to school in New York
City. SHE could be having much problems right now trying to find her
daughter. FriendPA has a world in AW called NewYork World
So yes... There is someone that has a VR World in the universe called
Active Worlds Universe that is involved with the REAL Universe and the
REAL World called "EARTH" and The World Trade Center or one of the
schools near that location.



"grimble" <grimble2000 at btinternet.com> wrote in
news:3b9ebdf8$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com:

> Oh well, here we go....
>
> First off, I meant no disservice to the US emergency services or the
> people that were directly affected by the attack including the
> thousands of dead and injured. For some reason you chose to take the
> post that way, which you are entitled to do I guess, but its dumb if
> you ask me - read the words. And if you can find a "salute" to
> anything in the original post as opposed to a reactionary rant, then
> well done!
>
> "5% of the worlds' population that actually believes there is no God"
> implies that you think that people's beliefs are black and white -
> one of the roots of extremist views in itself. I have no convictions
> either way about God's existence - but no God plays a part in my
> life. The two contentious lines of the post were just indicating my
> irritation that those who DO feel the need to have a God in their
> life expect or call on others to share their beliefs.
>
> I am mainstream English, lived in the UK all my life and as such am a
> supporter of Democracy and Capitalism. I am as shocked by this
> attrocity as anyone - I spend 50% of my time working within 150 miles
> of NYC so its a lot closer to home for me than it may initially seem.
>
> As for comments like "whoever did this deserves justice and death" is
> just hypocrytical. Whoever did this didn't do it just because they
> were bored one Tuesday morning - they believe that the US has
> comitted a crime for which they feel they need to be punished. Even
> our western over-enthusiastic media acknowledge this. The act itslef
> is extremism gone mad, but so is an instant call for fatal
> retaliation except that can hide behind a semi-justifyable mask after
> the events.
>
> What scares me is what comes next ... Dubya will have the
> unconditional support of 80% of key European nations for both hunting
> down the culprits and, to some extent, in executing the retaliation.
> However, what the hell is the US going to gain from taking out a few
> extremists? Very little I would imagine. Dubya has recently disclosed
> a list of what he discribes as "Rogue States" ... basically Middle
> Eastern countries that he doesn't like because they have a beef with
> the US. Its reasonably certain that the retaliation, in order to get
> the desired message across, will NOT be focussed to the perpetrators
> - it would have to be swift and it would have to be public. The US
> have been here before (Reagan ... Tripoli ... no proof ... ring a
> bell?), and THAT scares me because there are too many of these
> countries that would love to join in the melee to get a piece of
> America for its trophy cabinet. And guess what ... we ALL get dragged
> in!
>
> An extremist reaction to an extremist attack is going to cause more
> problems in the long term than it solves in the short term. Time for
> Dubya to show that he has the balls to stand up to his Generals ...
> 'cuz otherwise we're all f**ked because you could see what the head
> of the Joint Chiefs was thinking when he said that the US military
> was "ready". They do like to play with their maps and models those
> guys.
>
> BTW ... all the reports I have seen, on four different news channels,
> clearly stated that the vast majority of palestinians were NOT happy
> about either the attacks on the US or the impending retaliation. They
> are more concerned about the additional hell this will bring into
> their lives. Israel already seem to have used the apparent need for
> increased security as an excuse to attack and take over a palestinian
> town. Any that were "celebrating" are no doubt pretty pissed that the
> US refuse to show an even hand in the Middle East and condemn the
> attrocities performed BY Israel as well as those performed AGAINST
> Israel.

Sep 12, 2001, 8:02pm

Punishment.

And I prefer to be called a patriot. Call that extremist if you wish, but
nationalism and patriotism aren't dead yet. I'm prideful of my country.

If there's one thing you haven't realized yet, is that for better or for
worse, you don't tell Americans what to do. They get defensive. Kind of
like I am. =P

My thoughts on this are as follows: I've waken up a bit to see what past
administrations have done. But it doesn't make sense to attack the
government. The government is run by the people. It should NOT be held
responsible for what a previous administration did. If one is upset about
something that happened in the past when the USA was under the helm of a
previous administration, take it out on the administration, not the federal
government. The government and the administration that drives it are two
different things. The government is the vehicle in which the administration
uses to get things done. That's how it works across the pond.

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Sep 12, 2001, 8:48pm

You don't get it, history has shown that the way the US gets rid of enemies
is by basically destroying their country, gov't, people, and culture, and
rebuilding it based on American values. It happened to Germany and Japan.

We get rid of the threat by destroying the source. That's the only sure way
of making sure things like this will never happen again.

Also, your general sentiment about how the rest of our allies don't want to
be dragged into our conflicts: the point of alliances is to stick together.
If we act as one, we bring greater unity and stability to the cause.

I'm just about ranted out.

-BirdMike

[View Quote]

Sep 12, 2001, 8:53pm

Wing, obviously you're not alone in wanting to see an end to this vile
terrorism - its a view that I would hope is shared by the vast majority of
western-minded people. However, the nature of the US retaliation is a
concern. A war against terrorism is a war that will never end unless it is
stamped out in one swoop, otherwise it will only escalate. By definition,
innocent people will be the targets for terrorist activity and more and more
innocent people would die unless the RIGHT retaliation is exacted.

This is a relatively new experience for Americans. From a personal
perspective, I endured a number of years of working and living in central
London as a terrorist group, who had differnet views to Britain, were
exploding nail-bombs in pubs on busy Friday lunchtimes, bombs in litter bins
in crowded shopping areas, car-bombs outside densely populated commercial
buildings, etc. These things were happening week-in-week-out in pubs that I
frequented, shopping areas that I used and near buildings that I worked in,
so I know what its like to be terrorised. London was a closed shop for many,
many months with checkpoints manned by armed police, brandishing H&K
sub-machine guns, around the city perimeter.

They were killing innocent people and doing it without even so much as any
unconditional condemnation from one of our supposed allies. It is NOT an
experience that I would wish to go through again and certainly not on any
increased scale. Its all very well saying "go and kill the people
responsible" when its on the other side of the world. America's allies in
Europe are connected via land to these people and not protected by at least
3,500 miles of water to the East and West. America has experienced this
particular tragedy, horrific as it is, but either there should be either NO
retaliation or TOTAL retaliation. If its going to happen, it cannot be
half-hearted and must go all the way and get them ALL or it could condemn
millions of people around the world to more tragedy and misery. As I said in
another post, this is not the time for the American lust for vengence to
dictate the fate of the rest of the world.

I think Europe has experienced more than its fair share of civilian
casualties in the last 100 years. Check out the horrific scenes from the
mass carpet bombing of major European cities in WWII by both sides - there's
a big difference between fighting a war on your own doorstep and firing
smart missiles from miles and miles away. History has told that the only
successfuil way to end terror campaigns is to give both sides a forum in
which to express their grievances. Islam is a powerful force in the world
and the fundamentalists have plenty of lieutenants ready to take over where
their current leaders leave off. All or nothing or disaster ... and I would
be surprised if anyone truly believes that total anihilation of these people
is actually possible.

These are very real concerns and I have spent all the time I am going to
trying to express a very strong sense of anxiety for the future should the
retaliation be carried out in the manner being called for by an
understandably outraged nation.

No more thesis-lengths posts from me, but I hope at least some people can
appreciate that this is not a matter of one nation or group of nations
exacting revenge on a specific terrorist organisation. It is potentially a
huge influence on the life we live today and the values and state of freedom
that we all regard so dearly.

BTW ... what makes you think that The Pentagon wasn't the target for the
Washington plane? The White House seems such a token target with both The
Pentagon and The Capitol Building in close proximity - both far more
influential and representative of American might. Its an honest question ...
just wondering if there was information I'd missed or whether it was just
media speculation.

Grims.


[View Quote]

Sep 12, 2001, 9:13pm

Patriotism isn't a sin, its admirable (in moderation) ... but patriotic
hysteria IS a form of extremism. Everyones views get warped when they are
touched by such an attrocity, but such huge decisions cannot be influenced
by it.

I accept your point that the people change from administration to
administration, but the ideals that drive the Democrats and the Republicans
evolve very slowly. It is these ideals that mould their reactions. Democrats
react differently to situations than Republicans ... that's why their not
the same party. Unless the Reps have reinvented themsleves since Reagan, I
believe that they are driven by similar beliefs to their predecessors -
hence the comparison.

"you don't tell Americans what to do" ... I'm not even starting on that
issue ... I've said enough.

[View Quote]

Sep 12, 2001, 9:22pm

If I am reading this right, you're basically describing Ethnic Cleansing on
a genocidal scale. Scary really. And I don't think that you want to be
preaching about backing up your allies. The US goes remarkably introverted
when it comes to a decision on battling inherent evils that conflict with
their own materialistic interests.

BTW ... do you have ANY idea of the size of the (currently relatively
dormant) enemy you are facing? Islamic sects have a huge amount of influence
throughout America's enemies in the middle east. I don't think even the
combined efforts of the whole of NATO has the resources to "get rid of the
threat by destroying the source" in this case.


[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2001, 1:50am

It's not ethnic cleansing, its retaliation. The thing we need to wipe out
is this belief that it is a "holy" act to kill thousands of innocent people.
I didn't mean to convey ethnic cleansing at all.


[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2001, 2:21am

LOL. Fair enough. :)

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2001, 2:27am

He's talking about semi-assimilation. Basically the government is converted
to something non-threatening while the culture and the citizendry at large
are left alone. Seriously grimble... that's the only way you get rid of
people like that and their wannabe subordinates. Like Hitler, Mussolini,
Bin Laden, etc...

And Japan isn't a fair comparison. =P It was either us or them. Survival
of the fittest.

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2001, 2:37am

It's been confirmed by Intelligence that the plane that hit the Pentagon
only hit its secondary target. Its primary target was the White House, but
it was going so fast it overshot it. The plane that went down in
Pennsylvania was the act of some heroic passengers on the plane. Apparently
they cut the fuel lines and the plane fell from the sky instead of hurtling
into the Pentagon or trying to sidle up to and ram Air Force One in mid-air.
Nobody but the President and Intelligence know what the threat against Air
Force One really was, so that was just an educated guess.

And grimble, Bush is barely 7 months into his Presidency. But I'm confident
he'll think everything through before he acts.

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2001, 10:04am

In my home city they have released a number TO GIVE TO THE DISASTER
VICTIMS OF NY CITY & PENTAGON TERRORIST ACTION AGAINST THE USA USE THIS
NUMBER

315-472-0638

IF YOU LIVE IN THE CENTRAL NY AREAS

BUT this is a little funny today as i've been hit by over 10 calls
since WIXT-Channel 9 & WHEN-Channel 5 & WSTM-Channel 3 in Syracuse
released it about 5am Eastern USA time today as many people are only
human and they do make mistakes and this one sure takes the cake for
me...

315-472-0628 [That number is my home phone ONLY] and as you can see....
I'm getting the Give Help Line people.


[[[ The number 2 is close to a 3 ]]]

I don't really mind it though as i'm very cherefull even when i get
awaken up at some stupid hour in the night or day or anytime i think
the hour is stupid. I'm allways chereful. BUT i can see that if i do
any LIVE Internet Broadcasting i'm not going to be using my home line
as a request line for awhile though.

SO now in a way i have been brought into the events of the New York
World Trade Center AND The Pentagon Attack On The USA issues...

"jfk2 builder" <jfk2 at jfkmusic.com> wrote in
news:Xns91199EA9CB66Bjfk2jfkmusiccom at 166.90.181.12:

> We have been enjoying the luxeries of VIRTUAL REALITY Universes &
> Worlds... And in these communities we don't ever have to see many
> of the things that beset the real universe and the real world called
> EARTH.
>
> But what has happened in New York City [AND YES... It does affect
> Broadway] is tottaly not ok. And the things that happened in
> Washington DC is still not OK. ALSO what happened in PA is also not
> OK.
>
> ALL of this CRAP [In this times i am sure that you will allow for
> these words] to continue. BUT for the most immediate things will be
> for all the people that are NOT seriously affected by all of this to
> join hands and PRAY for LOVE and PEACE. And when whoever is found
> that caused all of this mess they should be hunted down until dead.
>
>
> REAL STREET NAME = Gerald Kieffer

Sep 13, 2001, 10:59am

My friend who is no longer a member of Active Worlds BUT is still my
ICQ friend gave me this news from Australia today about the WAR ON THE
USA -----------------------------------------------------------
ÅñÐûïÑ LøTHåRïø: (8:21 AM) An Australian woman who was on the plane
about to hit building #2 rang her husband... AFTER IT HIT and BLEW up
she rang up AGAIN, she survived the crash... Then the phone cut off as
the building crushed...


"jfk2 builder" <jfk2 at jfkmusic.com> wrote in
news:Xns9119DDFCE7877jfk2jfkmusiccom at 166.90.181.12:

> Well... That is my opinion of what has happened to some major
> tragedy that has beset MY HOME STATE and MY COUNTRY. It would be the
> same if it was most anyones country and a city or town or villiage
> near to where they live. BUT in my case it happened to MY HOME STATE
> and MY HOME COUNTRY got attacked by idots bent on human destruction &
> building destruction and human spirit destruction. and i'm one of
> those that i feel sick that these idiots did this. If anyone hired
> these attackers then i would want them string up until dead. Tim
> McVey can't do anyone any more harm as he is now DEAD. And that is
> why these idiots need to be hunted down and when found KILL THEM
> DEAD.
>
> And that is why i do not hide behind a screen name...
> I'll go in there with my STREET NAME.
> Gerald Kieffer
>
>
> "bcg" <Aquisclone at aol.com> wrote in
> news:3b9ebbaf at server1.Activeworlds.com:
>

Sep 13, 2001, 4:15pm

to prevent such things from happening, you DO realize that lifes *must* be
taken? the lifes of evil terrorists, that manipulate good fated people to
think they're heros selected by their Gods, but they are not, they are
everything BUT heroes, they are beasts at the end of the day. if the people
behind the forming and training of new terrorists are killed, they won't be
able to do more harm... what is a 100 lives to millions of possible inocent
civilians that get killed in terrorist actions? (killing these people is a
long term "investment" in more peace and security in our world). I
personally support any actions against terrorists and nations that support
them in ANY way.

KAH

[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2001, 2:58am

Yes i do know that to prevent these thinsg from happening again that
many lives must DIE and i'm all for the GUILTY be put to death. But
it's those that have nothing to do with this except that they may be
standing at the wrong spot when the bomb should drop and they will be
killed along with the enemy will die... THOSE are the innocent deaths
that i don't want to see killed. BUT as in any wars that are declared
by any nation or group or anything i do realize that many innocent
people will parish along with the guilty....

AND for them i do feel for them and i'm deeply sorry that they may be
the next innocent victim as us Americans were in The World Trade Center
and The Pentagon were when the 4 terrorist hyjacked planes either hit
their mark completely OR went burried in some corn field BUT took the
lives of the innocents on that plane...

AND THIS is why on my opening thread i said that we must all PRAY FOR
LOVE AND PEACE BUT KILL YHOSE THAT CAUSED THIS WAR....

The prayers for Love & Peace are for all the rest of us to help all of
us that are left with the living to cope with loses and for some
unification athat we are all people on this world called EARTH and we
must all [OR WE SHOULD ALL] think of ourselves as brothers and sisters
of each other and not as some alien to be destroyed.

The only aliens that should be destroyed are the aliens that think it's
OK to kill and maim and injure and hurt others for the reasons that
they need it for pleasure, or other SICK BIN LADIN excuses. These are
the ALIENS that should be put to death as they have no valued excuse to
remain alive amongst us only to do major harm to us for some stupid
sick reason by Bin Ladin ways.


AND while i'm doing all of this i'm proud to post in my REAL STREET
NAME as many people in the USA and in New York State [All of which are
my HOME] have died with their real names.

Gerald Kieffer


"kah" <kah at kahbot.com> wrote in
news:3ba0f7a7$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com:

> to prevent such things from happening, you DO realize that lifes
> *must* be taken? the lifes of evil terrorists, that manipulate good
> fated people to think they're heros selected by their Gods, but they
> are not, they are everything BUT heroes, they are beasts at the end
> of the day. if the people behind the forming and training of new
> terrorists are killed, they won't be able to do more harm... what is
> a 100 lives to millions of possible inocent civilians that get killed
> in terrorist actions? (killing these people is a long term
> "investment" in more peace and security in our world). I personally
> support any actions against terrorists and nations that support them
> in ANY way.
>
> KAH
>
[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2001, 4:39am

By the same token, what they did was justified in their eyes ... attacking
the "Evil American Empire" ... and they regard ALL Americans as equally
guilty of the crimes they perceive. They just happen to be a minority and so
their actions and methods are abhorent to many, many more people. To them,
any retaliation will be seen as further crimes. Go figure.

[View Quote]

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