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Apr 21, 2001, 1:02pm

"You're not paying $80 to 'flick a switch for a background'..."

Ok, then where do I change the background so visitors can see my background
without me paying at least $80 or someone else paying at least $80?

"...you're getting your own world to build in"

That is great, but I don't want my "own world to build in" and all the
frills that come with it. I just want one thing, to change the background.
Doing that is not worth $80. I'll pay, but not $80. I propose %75 of the
citizenship to be the fee for this, $15.


"Activeworlds requires that the world owner be able to control the world
background because otherwise many effects in lots of worlds would be
ruined."

Please identify to me exactly how "effects in lots of worlds would be
ruined" in a 3d program like Activeworlds if a download feature were used to
change background for a citizen's spot in AW worlds. This is not addressing
ownership of a world. This is where you pay a citizenship fee and build in
AW worlds and want to change the background. Again, there should be a fee,
but not $80.

"If you don't like the world background, complain to the world owner."

I have, and I am addressing it as well here.

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Apr 21, 2001, 1:04pm

"The world background is an attribute of the world; if a world owner decides
to let you build, you may."

I am not talking about citizen owned worlds. I am talking about AW worlds
where citizens pay AW to be able to change backgrounds.

"Being able to build and being able to change the background are totally
different."

Yes they are, but they should both be allowed if you are a citizen building
a town or building in AW world.


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Apr 21, 2001, 1:07pm

Yes, but you got to choose which LP's you bought. Activeworlds is choosing
what LP will be played and they are playing it for us 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, 4 weeks per month, and 12 months per year.

Or were you referring to Active Worlds being stuck on one track? Cause then
I could see where you are coming from.


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Apr 21, 2001, 2:31pm

That is pretty much what I am proposing. So long as a citizen who has paid
$20 (plus some possible extra charge for this feature)could change the
background and not have to buy a whole world.


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Apr 21, 2001, 2:34pm

I think you have to own a world in order to do what you are saying. I am
suggesting AW offer a way citizens who do not want to pay for a whole world
can pay a reduced fee (from the $80 for the minimum world)to allow this to
happen.

If it has to be with a bot, then I'll learn how to do it with a bot. If AW
can set it up without needing a bot, then that may be more preferrable to
those who don't want to learn it with a bot. Doesn't matter to me
personally.


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Apr 21, 2001, 3:09pm

Feel free to submit any data here for me too look at. As long as you make
references and don't show anything for us to see, we will have to mind read
what you are thinking to conclude the same thing you are referring to, and
that ain't going to be easy.


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Apr 21, 2001, 3:13pm

I paid for citizenship, and went ahead building. I wanted to change my
background and ran into a snag.

Oh well, that's where my money stops. I won't pay Active Worlds until I see
them give what I want. You can burn me once, but you can't a second time.

I am glad I didn't buy a world and true space. That has saved me $150 which
I can use for some tasty sushi, hehe.

Bottomline, Activeworlds is good. However, their pricing is not reasonable
when you consider limitations of choice. I came to build here, and I want
to build. That includes the background.

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Apr 21, 2001, 4:27pm

"Its not YOUR background its everyones background."

If people post a picture and have it clickable, everyone can download the
picture into a reserved spot for background assignment if they want. I am
not asking AW to take my background and force anyone else to use it. If AW
makes ANY pic downloadable then it is a choice of everyone to use or not
use.

"If you want your OWN background, stop being so cheap and buy a world, but
dont expect to change the background in a public world open to all:)"

That was never my intention. To reinforce my point, it would be a download
option. You download pic 1 and use it as a background. If you want pic 2,
download pic 2. You choose which background you want instead of Active
Worlds choosing it for you. That doesn't have to be a $80 minimum cost. It
can be a reduced fee of what I propose %75 of a citizenship ($15).

"If you want your own background, do the picture object thing and build a
wall round your house so you can be in your own private world."

That was a thought, but if you look at the pictures available to us in AW
world, you will see the only ones big are see through giving a shower
curtain effect. They aren't solid pictures.

I would love (strike that), I would hate to tell my clients I webdesign for
that they are just being cheap because they want a particular background to
their page without paying for a bunch of extras they don't need or want on
their site. Not sure I would continue making much business with that kind
of attitude.

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Apr 21, 2001, 4:37pm

If you take a closer look at what I am saying, you will get a more accurate
proposal. I am not requesting 1 particular image be forced upon citizens as
Active Worlds is doing now and what your response seemed to categorize me
under.

It is very much the opposite. You could have your picture where your area
is. People come to it and there could be a sign or a picture sample like in
the objects yard with pics whereby people could preview your picture. If
they didn't want that picture as a background, then they simply don't click
the button and leave things the way they are.

People do this all the time with skins on winamp, and in chat programs such
as odigo. There are even sections you can submit your own.

This is definately doable and at no time do I want any one pic to be forced
on anyone.



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Apr 22, 2001, 2:25am

"Do you charge more than $80 for a website?"

A website yes, to just change the background no. I don't see what you are
trying to get at by asking that.

"If so then why not pay $80 for a world/website and you can do what you
like, as your customers can when they buy one of your websites."

That assumes I need all the stuff a world has to offer. Rephrasing myself
from before, If I did a website and added extra things my client didn't need
nor want and charged them for it, how would that make me look to other
customers? (I am not a mechanic, just joking folks LOL)

"If you DON'T charge at least $80 for a website, then get real and don't
expect everyone else to be as dumb as you to not charge."

Ok, so you are saying AW wants/needs at least $80

They should then offer services which add up to that $80 and not make it the
next dollar amount after buying a citizenship. That is just poor marketing
to an economical customer.

I want to weigh the services and choose what I want to pay for. If AW wants
to have at least $80, I will to pay $69.95 for true space to use my own
objects in AW (Alpha World, Mars, Wild AW, etc..) and $15 for the ability to
change the background in AW (Alpha World, Mars, Wild AW, etc..). The total
comes to about $85.00. This is a useful package to me, and even though I
don't really need True Space it will however give them the $80 you appear to
be arguing they would need.

I would have no problem with that, but right now everyone that comes to
Active Worlds is in a catch 22. If you buy true space, then you can create
your own objects. However, all they say about True Space is that it "is
available to citizens" but they say nothing about needing a world first in
order to actually use it. Same thing with a world, if you buy a world, you
have to pay more for a program to make objects. I don't want people double
dipping in my wallet when I go to the checkout counter. AW can try that
tactic all they want, but that will give me more of a reason to not buy a
world or TS yet. My advice, save your money until they offer a combo. That
is a more honest approach.

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Apr 22, 2001, 4:42am

"No, I understand, if you want to change a backdrop in a world by clicking,
you can do it if you purcahse the world and program a bot."

That will be $80, I am not paying that much just to flick a switch so I can
use a background. I think that feature can be put in place at a reduced fee
making a win win situation for both citizen and Active Worlds.

"There wont as far as I know, ever be a feature to change someone elses
backdrop, in a world that does not belong to them."

If by "someone elses" you mean citizen, I do not want to change another
citizen's background. I was addressing worlds that Active Worlds has like
AW and AWteen.



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Apr 22, 2001, 4:48am

"Bzzzzt wrong.. you dont need a world in order to use truespace for 3d
modelling, its a stand alone program."

I never said you couldn't use truespace by itself, but when you do "use
truespace for 3d modelling", that is as far as you can go. You can't bring
those objects into AW world or AWteen. That is where they get you. You
then have to buy a world if you want to use it for building.

"Bzzzztttt wrong.. you can build objects in notepad, you dont need an
additional program."

Are you serious? Where is this feature in notepad to allow me to build
objects with, let me get this straight, you are saying "notepad"?

Notepad helps keep track of file names, I don't think you can actually build
objects in it.

"Now go get your facts straight...."

I say the same to you, unless you can show me how to build objects in
notepad, I doubt you have your facts straight.






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Apr 22, 2001, 6:13am

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Apr 22, 2001, 6:22am

"You talk a lot of stuff about things you do not understand."

That is what people do a lot. To better understand what you don't know, you
discuss it among your peers. I don't see anything wrong with that.

"And trying to explain it does not help unless you try to understand."

Have you tried to explain it?

"You do not even know what notepad is and try to discuss world
server stuff?"

As far as a citizen is concerned, within the use of the Active Worlds
program to build in worlds like AW and AW teen, I don't see where notepad
comes into play outside of tracking filenames and actions. Perhaps there is
a higher level use for world owners that is not applicable in this instance.

If you know of somethings that notepad can be used for by citizens in worlds
such as AW AWteen, feel free to mention them.

"Forget it unless you are willing to learn some
basics about AW technology."

I am here, willing to learn about the basics of AW technology.



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Apr 22, 2001, 7:05am

I was talking about AW and AWteen. Read the thread. I was not addressing a
world I could own.

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Apr 22, 2001, 8:17am

I am sure authorship as your would win a nobel prize in the FICTION
category!!! Just make up whatever interpretation of my words you want
without reading the intent. I am having just as much amusement that someone
who claims to have hands on experience as you isn't willing or won't
recognize what I am presenting.

Now, on a practical level let's see what newcomers to AW probably do:

1) download AW
2) install AW
3) sign on as tourist
4) learn to build with objects in AW object yard

If you are saying I can use "notepad", I am using quotes to stress, to build
objects then you are not applying its usage to AW or AW teen. Active Worlds
as I understand uses paths to accept or reject objects to be used in a
particular world.

Therefore, whatever capabilities I may have or in this case do not have with
notepad to create said objects you mention within your posts are not useful
for a citizen who wants to build in AW or AW teen since at no point does
AW's path go or will go to an object created by that citizen.

I would like to see someone respond in a more practical manner than just
claiming to know a lot of technical stuff that can't be useful to a citizen
in AW or AWteen.

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Apr 22, 2001, 9:41am

If you read each of my threads you will see what I was thinking because I
typed them out. If you just target the ones you responded to and copy one
of my sentences in my posts or just a set of them then you are taking them
out of context and not getting the full picture.

This is mainly why I am not addressing your posts in more detail here
because they don't relate to worlds like AW and AWteen. I would rather
stick AW and AWteen since that is where I want to build at.

My response to the initial post dealt with background changing in worlds
like AW and AWteen manually vs. a bot, and I mentioned it many times
repeating myself in many places to insure people who might only read one or
two posts would still get the main point that I wanted to change backgrounds
at a lesser fee than $80. As the posts grew, I had to section out stuff to
clarify specifics so that the person I was responding to could get a clearer
understanding of my point of view. It's all there, you just have to look at
the thread.


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Apr 22, 2001, 1:40pm

"You are not paying $80 to change someone else's backgrounds..."

I agree, I am not.


"...THIS IS NOT CURRENTLY A FEATURE!"

I hope it never becomes a feature.


"If you own a world, you can do what you like with it."

Whoohoo, but I am not milking AW's pockets in order to do it. I have
already proposed what I feel is a fairer price. I even emailed Active
Worlds on how they could market a combo of services and get more money.
Selling a world initially at $80 is way too much for someone who just wants
to change the background, which brings us to your last comment.

"If you don't like AW's background, set up a local path that overrides it
with one you can live with."

Are you saying people who visit me will see the change as well when I set
this up (without them doing any extra work from the norm)?




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Apr 22, 2001, 2:11pm

"Your logic is flawed. Changing a background on a webpage is like being the
one with access to a world's attributes and changing it there."

If I am a webdesigner for a client, then I make the changes not the client.
My logic isn't flawed because I am equating the webdesigner with a builder
using Active Worlds REGARDLESS if they own a world or not.

Now, to make "flawless logic" from that section of your post, I will assume
you are equating webdesigner with specifically a WORLD OWNER, not just a
builder using Active Worlds. In that case, we are talking about 2 different
things, the way it is now (which you seem to be projecting) and what I am
proposing could be in the future.

"What you're proposing would allow anyone to change the background image of
any "public-use" website (IE - Not when the page is created, but when they
view it)."

The only way that last part of your post can be logically valid is if the
visitor is in fact the builder who has the account rights to the location
with the background or has the private password. Otherwise, they can NOT
make any changes regarding that area and are someone who is merely viewing
the build (including background) and NOT making a single change as you are
asserting. The builders are the ones who would be supplying the backgrounds
for download. To equate this with webdesigning, say I make 2 sites. One
site is flash based, and the other is html without flash. The visitor to
the site has a choice to pick either page, and thus viewing background 1 in
the flash page, or viewing background 2 in the html page. The visitor
didn't change the page in any way when they went to see it.


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Apr 22, 2001, 2:26pm

Well, at least we are getting closer to talking about the same thing. But
we just quite aren't there yet.

"Why should you be able to alter their perception of the world?"

If I made a build, then I am the one with the "intended" perception not the
world owner who may not even know I made the build. Why not present that
build (including background) to the person and if they want another
perception then they can become a builder and make a change. If you made a
build in AW or AWteen and wanted a background with pink and purple polka
dots, even though I am not too crazy about pink and purple polka dots, I
would view your build with the pink and purple polka dots background because
that is how you intended it.

"If they want to see it, tell them how to create a local path as well..."

That is something I will have to do for now seeing that people are saying it
is possible. If I made the changes would those changes be stored in the
Active Worlds directory? If so, then I probably just zip the files and have
people download the zip and use that. Then the changes will be automatic
for them, but I am not sure if that is possible or not yet.


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Apr 22, 2001, 5:25pm

"Ummm . . . right. The backdrops of worlds such as AW and AWTeen were
put there by a citizen."

I would like to see someone like Roland confirm that. Until then, I beg to
differ. I don't think a citizen put "backdrops" (background?) there unless
they were given special rights beyond the norm.


"If you want to change a backdrop buy your own damned world."

For $80? ok, give me $80 and I will do it. Then, I have some swamp land to
sell in Florida, you are sure to love it.


"And don't give me that crap about "$80 to flick a switch" and blah
blah blah. You don't have any valid points to your argument."

Well, you are sure showing your valid points with all the blahs. I think I
need to take notes on your extensive use of the word "blah".


"This feature most likely will not be added, just drop it."

I have been telling people on AW about this wonderful thread and people seem
to agree with me. Why should we have to pay $80 for a bigger package if all
we want to do is change the background? It may not be a valid point, but it
sure is a valid question.

To support this valid question, I will provide valid points to validate the
validity and therefore validate my thoughts on the issue which you say I
can't validate.

1. A world offers various unique features that a non world owner can not
have access to.
2. Changing background/backdrop is one feature that a world offers.
3. Therefore, the ONE feature of changing the background is PART OF THE
TOTAL number of features found within the world's unique features.

If a feature is part of a whole set of features, then it should not carry
the same value/dollar amount that the set of features has. It should hold a
value = PART OF THE TOTAL. This is just common sense and a valid point when
addressing costs involved with selling services to Active World's citizens.








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Apr 23, 2001, 12:18pm

"Since this is the Bots newsgroup, and I posted a suggestion that perhaps
one
could create a bot to do this (in private worlds...), it belongs here..."

I agree 100% that you posted in the right area.

"The fact that marcus is to dense to understand that you get what you pay
for... IE:
You buy a world, you buy the rights to change anything you want."

I see you used the word "rights", this indicates you are indicating more
than 1 right is offered when buying a world, which can further be speculated
is unique to just world owners. I am trying to find out why we can't pay
for individual rights at a reduced fee, still getting what we pay for and
not getting rights we don't need.

"You buy a citizenship, you buy the ability to have citizen rights."

And one of the citizen rights should be the right to change the background
even if you are not a world's owner.

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Apr 23, 2001, 12:30pm

"Being able to change the backdrop of someone elses world is not something
that we would likely support - and, AW is a world for everyone."

You apparently do not understand what I am asking. Let me clarify. I do not
want to change someone else's world. This has nothing to do with another
person's world. I am discussing AW and AW teen in which we can build for
free there or as a citizen.

With that said, if we could change the background for our area, it would not
effect everyone else like you have stated you have done at times to "spice"
things up. It was chaos, because you guys did it wrong. You made the
change effect everyone. That is not what I am proposing. I am asking to
have it limited to the area in which the person's build is. It can be set
up as a download so that if people do not want someone's background they
simply do not click the button to download that background. They can then
continue using whatever background they currently have.

"I am sorry you are dissatisfied with the world pricing, we aim to provide
the best service we can, and believe that we offer a product worth the
amount that is charged for it, our pricing structures are always being
reviewed as we progress, so perhaps one day there will be a better solution
suited to your needs"

I never said I was dissatisfied with the pricing of a world. I said the
world offers things I do not need, therefore I am requesting a fee relative
to the feature concerning the change of background which can only be
attained through purchasing a world now.

By telling me this is not at the top of the list for Active Worlds to
consider is telling me flat out you don't give a damn towards the citizen.
I sure hope other citizens do not read what you just posted because I
honestly don't think you meant it, nor do I think Active Worlds wants to
ignore the suggestions a citizen may give to improve their system.


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Apr 23, 2001, 2:04pm

"If you want to change the backdrop in my world, you get banned."

*****I apologize if you don't think I am responding fully to your post. I
feel a response to the section I just quoted will sufficiently touch on the
rest of your post*****

We are talking about 2 different things. If you have a world, I would not
attempt any change of background there. My position addresses worlds like
AW and AW teen which are considered public. The ability to change
backgrounds there, NOT in citizen owned worlds, could allow and should allow
citizens to download a background they want their visitors to see.

So far the only ones who seem to disagree with me are those who have already
paid for a world. Those that I have chatted with who don't own a world would
be more than willing to pay a reasonable fee for just the feature to
download backgrounds for their area and have them set up for their visitors
to download also, functioning like sounds do now. They just don't need a
world.

I wonder if this is because you guys actually see my suggestion as a good
idea and wish you could have had that option before purchasing a world.


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Apr 23, 2001, 3:27pm

"You really don't get it do you marcus. AW and AWteen are public BUILDING
worlds. That means that they are private world (owned by Acom) open to
public building."

No, I don't get it. How can a world be private and public at the same time?
That would negate what each term is defined by.

(taken from http://www.m-w.com)

PRIVATE - 1 a : intended for or restricted to the use of a particular
person, group, or class <a private park>

That sure sounds a lot like what AW and AWteen is functioning as currently.

PUBLIC - 6 a : accessible to or shared by all members of the community

I don't feel being told there can only be one background is giving me access
to several, nor is it allowing me to share my background/backgrounds.

Despite those definitions which I did not make up, I think it would be wiser
to conclude AW and AWteen are not private nor are they public exclusively,
but rather consist of a mix of public and private features. The issue of
the background being changed is a public issue, however right now Active
Worlds is deciding to deal with it in a private manner whereby the owners
decide what the background will be always, and not allowing the public
consisting of the citizens to take part in this decision.

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Apr 23, 2001, 6:28pm

Building objects and building WITH objects in AW are 2 different things.

Learn to read the context of what people are trying to say guys, not just
the 1:1 correspondence of what you want it to mean.



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Apr 23, 2001, 8:25pm

"...I can tell you, that this one is *not* ever going to be anywhere high on
the
priority list"

Not putting words into your mouth, quoting here straight from the horse's
mouth.

If you want to retract that statement, feel free to at anytime and I will
assume it was not typed out with 100% of your undividend attention where you
could actually realized what was typed. We all say things at times we
didn't really mean. I am just asking you, is something a citizen wants at
the top or bottom of your list? Just please answer that one in your head and
let your consciousness take you to the answer.

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Apr 23, 2001, 9:43pm

Since I made my first post to holistic1, I have only tried to discuss the
issue of building in worlds like AW and AW teen, and I have never once
addressed a world owned by a citizen who has paid at least $80 for it when
doing so.

It is you not me who brought up notepad.

I wonder if you actually read the posts or just take target practice
blindfolded. I get a lot of attacks and namecalling and very little civil
posts from you actually addressing what I am trying to talk about.

Now moria, if you can respond to this post in a civil fashion I'll be more
than happy to continue discussing with you what I have been trying to get
others to recognize. If all you have to offer is insults and red herrings
which don't have a thing to do with what I am asking, I will simply turn my
attention to the others like builderz, facter, and fox who have shown an
ability to read and discuss without demeaning a person or situation.



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Apr 24, 2001, 11:14pm

I don't quite understand why a programmer can't make a program without a
help section. Oh, that would mean they would have to make a program user
friendly and seeing how non user friendly your post was, now I see why you
want non programmers to read a help section.


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Apr 26, 2001, 1:41am

"5) If you change the extention of a txt file to a jpg file and try to open
it it crashes."

When would someone want to change an extension of a text file to a jpg?
(just curious)



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