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Apr 13, 2001, 6:56pm

Maybe there is or could be a feature to build it once in another location,
we'll call location B, and then where it was originally, we'll call location
A, is deleted. It then does the same thing but the other way, deleting
location B and putting it back in A but under the citizen's name.


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Apr 14, 2001, 10:09pm

Xelag,

You have an excellent program, but I just spent yesterday for the longest
time trying to figure out the sequence to build, survey, transform.

Only difference with me and barbarobossa is that I had someone help me a few
times. Eventually I got it, but it took a lot of trial and error, and your
help files are also excellent to define terms.

In order to get the sequence of clicks however, and what to type in it helps
to have a numbered step procedure.

1. survey

2. address squares that have to be checked and any text needed, and address
how to select just one sector. Don't worry about defining a "Zone" until
the person has successfully built a sector. I tried building a zone and
when I eventually got it up and running, it appeared it would take forever
to build.

3. as a follow up to 2, it is very easy to forget to build in the right
coordinates. So, making them build a sector first, helps in the learning
process. It doesn't say whether or not you could see the build as it was
building or if you had to wait the whole time before it was built. This was
discovered through trial and error.

4. To help in the sequence of learning, the student needs to know beforehand
that there are stages. You build, then you have to save a project, but then
you have to transform and bring a bot (which does help in the early stages)
to the location you want the build and SURVEY AGAIN!!! I have about 2
builds on top of my stuff duplicating objects. Thank God it wasn't put
somewhere else to the best of my knowledge. I later decided to destroy any
build that was failed which I could not see the copy of to insure this.

5. Checking the Transform at this point helped. If it's not done, I believe
the visual cue is that the individual squares for the cells do not turn blue
as they are being built (blue reflecting the default color scheme, if you
are reading this and didn't change color schemes then it is probably set at
the same default). This is the island the student wants to get to in order
to insure they are building in the right place, but maybe it would be nice
to first introduce changing the coordinates of where the transform will take
place.

6. Fine tweek the coordinates in the transform tab, like with shift.
AWSchool teachers aren't even supposed to teach using shift in their first
lesson, but oh well maybe Xelagot users deserve more upfront :-)

7. CHECK THE BUILD!!!! if it is not there and the student saw the phrase
"BUILDING IN PROGRESS", click the destroy tab, start, and then continue.
This will insure that they don't leave building reminants somewhere out in
the boonies.

This is just an overlay of the significant areas I saw when learning how to
build and destroy using your program. If I had a newcomer on the scene I
would have to access a 1 page synposis of the steps like this without any
hyperlinks or reference terms so they are on the right track.

My initial guess to B's problem is that they didn't do step 4.






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Apr 14, 2001, 9:03am

Whenever someone comes to a bots location including other bots I get a
status message. If they are moving, then they are constantly coming in and
out of each other's area a lot each day.

Is there a way to either increase the radius of the bots area so I only get
one status at each login or disable it entirely? I can see their names in
the world if they enter anyways, so having it tell me who is coming in and
out of one BOTS area a 100 times a day isn't necessary.

Apr 14, 2001, 9:29am

Sorry, I assumed there was a standardized way of displayed status.

I am by far no programmer. I use Xelagot, but I presume this is a common
issue that can be dealt with in any BOT program regarding the repetitious
update of people leaving and entering a bot's area just because they moved
around the edge of the BOT's limits.


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Apr 14, 2001, 9:39pm

"It would be nice if a bot owned by a cit with ED could get enter/exit
messages covering the whole world generated by the world server, but alas,
not yet."

Sorry, don't know what "ED" means in that message. I am not looking for
"messages covering the whole world". I am in AW world and I have bots that
give messages that I do not want. The reason this is because the bots like
you have helped confirm have a limited radius. Now every time they enter
and leave the edge of the radius, messages come up. I don't necessarily
want to change the radius for obvious reasons of chaos in heavily populated
areas. I think an option to simply turn the messages on or off would be
sufficient. The radius could stay exactly the same and no world owner
needed to change any parameters concerning the world.



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Apr 15, 2001, 9:49pm

I don't know how much clearer I can be.

I don't want any bot to tell me who is entering or leaving its area.




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Apr 16, 2001, 11:19pm

Xelag, no offense, you have a good program, but your help files just define
terms in case they are unfamiliar to people. THEY DO NOT TEACH. Before I
read about surveying, I read everything else in your help files to make sure
I was not going to miss anything. And then I read your section on
surveying. I did pretty well on my own until I got up to building. Then
someone was nice enough to walk me through this. I teach music, Japanese,
and web designing, so I have had some experience in the teaching process and
what a student needs in order to move on to the next step in a lesson.

A student needs a walk through, STEP by STEP procedure. If they are to click
something to achieve what you are teaching what do they click? If they are
to type something to achieve what you are teaching what do they type? Make
a numbered list containg all the steps like the following:

1. click "file"
2. choose "open"
3. Type in file name
4. Press enter

Students who don't need such "anal" information to learn or have already
learned can simply scan the essential steps picking up on what they need.
It's all on 1 single page, no hyperlinks to click. This also makes it nice
to print out.

You may want to put some time into setting up teaching lessons. I like to
build on one as much as I can. You teach steps 1-10 in Lesson 1 which
achieve task A putting as much detail as you possibly can. Then, you go to
Lesson 2, and teach steps 11-20 which expand on Lesson 1 to acieve task B.
Continue this process til you need to re-introduce a new Lesson.

You could have a glossary section with the pages you have already done for
easy look up to define terms.

Good Luck, hope this suggestion works

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Apr 19, 2001, 11:56am

Try to get AW to allow you have a background first. I emailed tech support
about this and after about a dozen annoying emails they finally responded
basically with a huge NO.

Unless you shell out at least $80 bucks for the cheapest world, they won't
allow it. And that I ain't doing it. $80 just to flick a switch to allow
backgrounds, no way no how, nada. I'll pay a reasonable price for it though
like say $15. That's 75% of a citizenship just to download one file and use
it for a background. AW should be more than happy to allow that. I know
many people who would take advantage of it.

However, as long as they stay stubborn and require $80 to get a world before
you can change just the background, I wouldn't worry about it.

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Apr 19, 2001, 6:29pm

"Am I missing your point here?"

I don't know, but the point I am making is simply Active Worlds charges way
too much ($80 minimum)just to allow us to change a background which is only
one file. If you don't like to look at it that way, then I'll word it
differently. If you just want flick a switch and change a background, they
require you to buy a package which allows more than controlling the
background image($80 minimum). I understand this package may be a savings
of the lifetime from what Active Worlds only offers. However, that assumes
I need the package. All I want is to change the background. Buying a whole
truck load of milk could be a deal and sold cheaper too, but it will go sour
and not only will that milk go to waste but the money spent as well. Just
buy what you need, hence Active Worlds is charging way too much in the eyes
of the consumer who just wants one of the features. I am a potential
customer for something I don't think will cost them nearly as much as I am
willing to pay them to allow that feature. They are just being stubborn
thinking we will cave in and buy a world at a higher cost. I bought my
citizen account and that's enough for now til I see the prices become more
realistic.

"Where else are you going to change a
background apart from in a world (?) ... and therefore the need to run a
world."

Yes, they set it up so you have to buy a world in order to change a
background. I fully understand that. I am voicing my opinion in regards to
that which supports trying to find a way in which we can pay Active Worlds
to provide a feature which allows us to change the background without having
to spend at least $80. I don't mind a fee, I mind the $80 fee. I am
willing to pay Active Worlds %75 of a citizenship fee ($15) to see this
happen.

If others feel that there is only one service providing something they like,
or that one particular service only provides one service to them and they
are willing to pay for it then I support them in their decision to probably
buy a world in this case. It gives Active Worlds more money, and allows the
service to improve to hopefully one day where they can see forcing one
service and putting their eggs in one basket isn't the most economical
solution to increasing revenue. If you can get 100 people to pay part of
package A, and another 100 to pay the other part, you have 50 people
theoretically that bought package A. Right now, if I represented 1 of the
people they are down 1%. The other way, they could still get around by
1/2%. This doesn't address the people I have talked to who won't even pay
$20 for a citizenship. Possibly, if they knew they had more control they
would chip in the $20. Now, that is further money to fill AW's pockets.


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Apr 19, 2001, 6:39pm

Sorry, that's 100 people, not 50 near the bottom of my post. I apologize

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Apr 20, 2001, 1:25am

Ok then I assume this bot is in a world someone buys then?

You still end up paying for the world. That is the requirement and that is
the point I am making which someone asked me to clarify. Regardless if you
meant in AW or your own world, the conditions are the same and don't change.
You have own a world to change a background, hence shell out the $80.

I think that is great for AW to offer backgrounds. My response focused on
the requirement beforehand to buy a world before we can change the
background. It isn't that hard to allow this. It is a feature that they
are deciding to offer after requiring us to buy a world. Sound is a lot
harder to manage than 1 single picture for a background and they seem to do
a mighty fine job with that. It's downloaded to your system just like the
rest of the files. Just because you don't see it offered to other citizens
who don't own worlds doesn't mean it isn't possible.

If an Active Worlds guru (roland, hint hint) wants to step up to the plate
and tell us why it "can't be done" then we will know. A 3d program where you
can walk around and build things but you can't change a 2d background? I
don't buy it. This is the work of a marketing team not a technician.





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Apr 20, 2001, 1:39am

I appreciate your position. I have another position.

It may be raining in your neck of the woods, and it may be sunny where I am,
or vice versa. The "natural" ambience will be different. I would love for
the mayor of my city (in the real world) to pick one sunny climate and leave
it that way all day everyday and include drinks in the evening to enjoy the
night sky. I am sorry, but that probably won't happen outside of a dream.

Reality changes and that includes the background. Even a glance at a
weather map shows different weather patterns with clouds forming in some
areas, and not in other places. There is snow while there is not snow in
other parts. It is dark in some areas, and it is light in some areas. If
you travel, this change of scenary/ambience changes more rapdily, so should
the background in Active Worlds to reflect this "natural" ambience in a more
realistic sense and also so AW can get some more money from us, hehe.

I am willing to pay for it cause I would like a different background. I am
very happy with the objects I have in AW, and I have searched other worlds.
Now I am ready to pay for what I want, but not the extras.

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Apr 20, 2001, 1:47am

As for what can and can not be changed, Active Worlds decides that. It
isn't impossible to allow it.

And since you referred briefly on how to change a local path, I would love
to know how to do that and how someone else can do it who visits me then.
Maybe I won't have to pay AW anything for this service then. That's fine
with me :-)

I just thought if AW added this feature then we could click a button and
make it a one step process. It looks like from the World's Features
section, there is a path already in place. Why not leave that field open
and allow us to change that to say
http://www.domain.com/directory/filename.jpg just like we can do with create
picture htpp://...

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Apr 20, 2001, 1:50am

Yes, you are right. You have to buy a world first. All I want is to change
a background, I don't want the extras. I am willing to pay a reduced fee to
make this happen. %75 of a citizenship ($15) should be more than enough to
put a switch in place so we can do that without shelling out $80 and get
things that some citizens don't want or need.

All I want is to change a background using a $20 citizenship and a small fee
for this ability.


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Apr 20, 2001, 4:19am

I am a not a programmer and don't know what "'command /ccopy <yourbackdrop>
<worldbackdrop>' or
'cmd /ccopy <yourbackdrop> <worldbackdrop>'" means.

I would like a visitor to teleport to my location and either 1) see a
background I have put up, or 2)have them click a download button like with
other pictures and have a background download that way.

I am not interested in just setting it up for myself. I would like others
to see it as well. Right not the only choice is to buy a world at $80 with
all its extras (limiting the number of citizens that can be there at onetime
doesn't seem like an extra me though).

I would rather pay a smaller fee, and just get the rights to change the
background. If this means we have to use a bot to make it work, I'll learn
how to use a bot to do it then. It doesn't matter to me.

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Apr 20, 2001, 4:22am

"I guess a
cool new feature would be to have something like a new "background" action,
which would change your own background when triggered...
or to find a way to be able to define different backgrounds depending on
what area you're visiting."

YES!!! That is one way of dealing with this background issue. Click on a
button, and then it downloads. Works for me. Just like you can make any
location your home, you could select any background for that world to be a
default like wallpaper on your desktop.

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Apr 20, 2001, 4:24am

I don't mind having it a permanent condition. Whatever works to allow us 1
single background to appear at 1 time would be good.

If this means people have to download it fine, if it means it is permanent
that is fine too. Whichever AW would want.

I just want the opportunity to change it at some point. Right now, $80 is
the only way to go.

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Apr 20, 2001, 12:00pm

Yea, doesn't he have better things to do like namecall and misjudge people
like you :-)


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Apr 20, 2001, 12:04pm

When I go to the supermarket, I don't buy 1 of everything on the shelves. I
like to choose what I want to buy. Active Worlds is filling the cart now
dictating what services we will get when we leave the checkout counter.

I am willing to pay my dues. I never said they should give it to us for
free. Charge something for the ability to change backgrounds. I propose
%75 of the citizenship fee, $15.


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Apr 20, 2001, 12:12pm

Well when this forum is called "holistic1"'s forum about only owning worlds
I will be more than happy to conform to your rules. It is called "bots",
which can be used in many public worlds as well as private ones owned by
citizens.

Therefore, I made a post that fit the criteria of the forum and people have
responded branching out to other areas. If you want your own forum, make
one. EZboard is very good, and you can erase whatever you don't want to
see. For here however, if you don't like something, move on.

As for owning a world, I have emailed AW telling them I did in fact want to
own a world. I felt the prices were too high and I offered a way they could
make more money actually by offering a $200 combo. If you read these posts
back to beginning of April you should see where I discussed it more in
detail. Hope you are you enjoying your world if you have one. Have a good
day.


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Apr 21, 2001, 2:36am

And like with many products you should be able to choose. If a webdesigner
offered to do a website for a customer and charged $80 to allow a changed
background of the customer's choice or pay a reduced fee of $20 where they
could not choose the background choice, do you think that webdesigner would
ever get that $80 let alone $20?

There are too many people out there willing to provide the same service and
at a more reasonable price. You couldn't compete. So, it boils down to what
is the customer willing to pay for and what can you charge for it? %75 of a
citizenship fee ($15) should be the price in my opinion and I have seen no
objections towards that.

If you want to pay the extra $65 to have that control, have fun and enjoy
filling up AW's pockets. I am not paying them $80 to flick a switch for a
background, $15 yes.

So far I have not seen them address the citizen's wants, and this is proof
they aren't listening.




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Apr 21, 2001, 2:48am

Your weather bot changed the background for everyone at one time. That is
not what I am proposing, though you are in the ballpark.

Please tell me why this can not be done. Set it up so people click on a
button to download a citizen's background.

I see you guys setting up a 3d environment so that we can rotate, move,
create, animate, "texturize", warp, teleport, flush, lol, etc... well you
get my point, but you can't allow us to change a 2 dimensional background?

Am I to believe we are at the edge of Active World's technology where
someone can not click a button (located at the citizen's area) and have a
background download (like pictures download) then? This would allow people
to change the background and it wouldn't interfere with other people's
areas.

Just like I have to wait for someone's objects to load, and pictures to
load, I don't see why we can't also wait for a background to load if we
want.

Of course the wish is to have it automatic (like have a bump command to
download it at the entrance of one's place), but if that in the eyes of a AW
technician would not be good, then I ask to put a button option so we can
allow our visitors to download it manually at their choice. If they don't
choose to download it, then they would see the background as the default AW
has.

AW can change whatever background they wanted to whenever they wanted to and
citizens would still have the option to keep it the way they want. It seems
like a win win situation and I don't see how it could not be done
considering everything else AW can offer.


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Apr 21, 2001, 2:54am

I did post in the wishlist earlier this month about it. I actually was
responding to a bot question and the group sort of went on this tangent,
hehe.

Anyways, You are recognizing exactly what I was thinking. Yes, allow it in
a limited area. I like the additional suggestions you made regarding
lighting.

As for porn, they will have to disallow the "create picture" action before
they rid that stuff.

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Apr 21, 2001, 3:05am

I don't know you and I don't know what you personally use to appreciate the
web, business, products, etc..

I will only tell you what I see. I do webdesigning and I know people who
look at my work and say "I like it Marcus, but the background should be this
color".

Am I to say, "Ok, that will be $80, let me change it"?

It's true I don't know AW's inner workings. If I did, I wouldn't be here
posting messages. I would be applying for a job so I could make the changes
and allow people to do this because I know they should have that option.

Are you telling me AW can create a 3d environment where we are rotate
objects, move, etc.. but we can't change one background?

I don't think it will tax them to allow it. It might even enhance our
builds making it better for AW. That means more people stay, and AW can try
to sell worlds to them.

Bottom line, $80 to flick a switch to allow change of background is way too
much. I propose %75 of the citizenship fee ($15) and so far I have seen no
objections from anyone regarding this price, even AW when they responded in
email and in here has not yet commented on the price issue.

Until further notice, this will lead me personally yo believe they are
snowballing us and thinking we will go buy a bigger package just so we can
use 1 single feature they aren't allowing us at a reduced fee. I am not
buying anything more from Active Worlds until they can show me personally
that they give a damn towards the citizen. Up to this point when I emailed
and I tried to discuss issues they have turned their head where other
services have listened and responded. That is why I am here, because it
appears they only listen to numbers and big wigs with the venture capital.

I have paid already for the service and I should be allowed to change the
background just like everyone else who are citizens. Until then, they won't
see another red cent.


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Apr 21, 2001, 3:07am

You posted the initial message, not me. I merely responded saying if you
can't allow them to change backgrounds without a bot, then don't expect them
to allow you change it with one.

Anything more, blame it on the devil }:-)


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Apr 21, 2001, 3:14am

Sorry, I thought I was reading Holistic1's response. He made the initial
post.

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Apr 21, 2001, 4:08am

Well,in case you are reading this, without us they wouldn't have worlds
sold. Without us, there wouldn't be people who would buy a world. And that
goes with anything else they choose to offer to sell.

If they feel turning off citizens is the way to sell something and make
money, they can have their true space and worlds all to themself. I am
offering a middle ground where those who do not and WILL NOT pay for a world
just to flick on a switch to change backgrounds can still pay AW something
to have this feature.

I am not going to pay $80 for a world to find out I need to pay another
extra $69.95 for true space to create objects.

I paid 20 for a citizenship and now find out they aren't allowing a change
of background. What would I find out is not offered if I go buy a world?
Well, for one thing, you can only have like 10 people unless you pay more to
visit your place at onetime.

In AW I could have 100 people for only $20.

There is no way, no how, nada that I am going to milk AW's pockets with
money until they provide me a service I am asking for. Charge me 75% of a
citizenship just to flick a switch so I change a background.

Every 6 citizens that want this will give them the cost of a world. If 100
are in AW at one time, that makes ~17 worlds AW could have sold. It's up to
them to try. Is the cost of allowing it going to hurt them? I don't see how
a 3d program such as AW could require that much more extensive research to
allow. It is economical, it is affordable, it is doable, why not do it?

People will not pay the total cost of a world just to change the background,
and that is one customer who will eventually walk away when their
citizenship runs out.





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Apr 21, 2001, 7:17am

LOL, some people take things they don't like at such a personal level.

If you paid at least $80 for a world and feel that is a fair price, then it
should be ok for someone to not pay the $80 because feel it isn't.

How else do you suggest someone make a suggestion? Please tell me how you
would make one and I will be more than happy to try that approach. I
already emailed Active Worlds. I messaged Roland. I talked to teachers in
AWSchool. I went to AWGate. I asked Bot programmers about this.

What else can I try without making someone offended, or are you just
offended because I made the choice to suggest something?


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Apr 21, 2001, 7:21am

That isn't what I said. Let me clarify myself.

We can move objects. To have that ability and not be able to change a 2d
background seems odd to me. It appears Active Worlds is deciding not to
allow it.

The objects was just a comparison. It seems a lot harder to be able to
create a program where you can rotate and move objects over laying a 2d
background.

I don't see "massive reprocussions". Please list them so we can address
them.


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Apr 21, 2001, 11:20am

"To address marcus point of view: I paid the $80+ for my world spent months
building it to the theme I chose and there ain't no way I want someone to
come and change it around to match their preference."

If you paid for a world, your theme should still continue and at no point am
I advocating tourists, citizens, Active Worlds people (pk's, gks', etc...)
to alter the background of YOUR world. If I came to your world and you gave
me space to build, I would not consider changing the background under any
conditions even if you did allow it. My "point of view" addresses worlds
that function like AW where a citizen doesn't own all the rights, but rather
people share. Please read on for more clarification.

"This is why my world is closed to the public. I get tired of hearing the
tourist complain about something they aren't paying for."

I do too. I am a citizen, and by being able to post here you probably
already know I paid my dues for citizenship. Furthermore, I am willing to
pay Activeworlds for the ability to have my own background downloaded when
people come visit my spot if they want. This fee I am proposing should be
%75 of the citizenship fee, $15. I am willing to pay, just not the $80.






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