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Jun 25, 2002, 9:23pm

Exactly, thats why I told you a reread it and realized you did say it in opinion

- YP

[View Quote] -Agent1

[View Quote]

Jun 25, 2002, 9:24pm

doh, next to the end "I can convincing" is meant to be "I am convincing" [trying to]

[View Quote] - YP

[View Quote] --Bowen--

[View Quote]

Jun 26, 2002, 12:20am

What has he said that is so bad?

- YP

[View Quote] --Bowen--

[View Quote]

Jun 26, 2002, 3:05pm

I know Insanity as a friend, he and everyone else willing to donate and helps the community
forthright should be allowed to judge the community, just as anyone else. But "let in" was my 2
word equivalent of you saying "only highlighting some associations. You know it makes me wonder
how insanity got those past CYawards". In what way does he lack credibility and integrity? I'm
hopefully looking for fact reasons, or personal encounters. If one of them is about ambivalent
not getting her refund, well, it was mentioned in the contract only 30 days for a refund, and a
business should go by the contract they set out, so that reason isn't valid as to lower his
credibility and integrity.

- YP

[View Quote] Glitter



[View Quote]

Jun 26, 2002, 3:15pm

How can you say the Cy's have no credibility in the eyes of many? Count the people who have
pounced on Insanity for his business practice, its only 15 or so people, the Cy's attract an
attendance of 200-300 people. AlphaBit needs to do nothing to restore the credibility of the
Cy's, it's still there except for this 15 or so people, and all she and the rest of the
community can do to fix that is to show you the facts, facts count more than word of mouth.

- YP

[View Quote] Glitter


[View Quote]

Jun 26, 2002, 3:33pm

First of all, the Cy's committee is over 40-50 people, it's truly a great event in the end and
has been for years. It is one of the most stable community events, one person you believe is
dishonest you believe is in the committee will not affect it. Several community organizations
have people in them who the majority of people think is dishonest, but the event itself turns
out a honest event. Insanity is a fully trustworthy and honest person, he donates objects to the
community, and volunteered to help in the Cy's. I see nothing dishonest associated with
Insanity, he got accused of stealing an avatar, in which the person said they were taking
Insanity to court, well where's the outcome of this? If there were an outcome besides his
innocence, then maybe that would qualify as a dishonest factor. He ejected someone from a world
for 5 minutes, the owner demands refund after 30 days, says her money was taken, and feels she
doesn't own her world anymore, if you think ejecting someone for 5 minutes from a world you host
is a qualifying dishonest factor, then so be it.

- YP

[View Quote] Glitter



[View Quote]

Jun 26, 2002, 7:37pm

Perhaps you've not met him in person, he does have morals and is a decent man, in what way did
he take money? If his client asked for a refund after 30 days, yet in contract it stated no
refund after 30 days, then well, it is simply the client's fault. I don't believe anyone has
lost any money in him, except for one person, but it was their own fault. So therefore, he is
not a crook.

- YP

[View Quote] I also seem to remember inquiring as to your health, as I'm not a sadistic person and don't wish
anyone ill health..... I also asked you to back up your claims of this "serious cardiac
surgery"
with some manner of proof.... As, Honestly, You've quite a track record of half and untruths
here...... Hell, I even offered to not make another post AND post an apology, had you proven you
were ACTUALLY ill..... I wish no ill on ANY person.... But alas, you never responded to
THAT...... perhaps there was no way you COULD....... BTW, I dont give a hoot about the Vice
Secretary, Dick Cheney....... HE is a man with impeccable credentials and DEMONSTRATED morals
and
maturity........ you on the other hand...... well, lets just count all the dollars that
people
have lost involving you....

Also........ Hate is a pretty harsh word there Lars...... I never alluded to "hating"
you........ I
just think you're a crook....... ( allegedly, of course)

Oh yes...... almost forgot....... I'm not a kid, genius...... in case you forgot from the LAST
bunch of nastiness you posted here..... (might wanna read back some and refresh your failing
memory)
I'm 33 years old, and an electrician / datacom systems installer..... but I suppose my MANY
YEARS
of schooling don't count as an education, huh ?? Maybe if I work real hard I can host worlds
and
make gor sequences and be an actor sometimes.....

Save your presumptuous egotistical crap for someone here who MIGHT be impressed...... or just
blinded by your smoke screens, attention shifting antics, and generally outrageous self
aggrandizations.......

And If you WERE ill....... I sincerely hope you're feeling better...... I'd assume you were,
since you can write posts like that.....

Jun 26, 2002, 7:38pm

Too bad its something you cant live with, but cant live without... lol

- YP

[View Quote] I've already seen Politics almost ruin one chat program (and kill an
otherwise originally very worthy organization in that same program).
Regardless of what side you are on, or what your opinion you may have, let's
not let Politics destroy Active Worlds!

Barbara of Amberlin
aka Barbara Eisner aka Barbarae

Jun 26, 2002, 8:44pm

If such is true, you can send him to court, or contact the better business bureau, if you don't,
then it's merely words, since you and Insanity have conflicting stories, if you take him to
court and win, you'll get more believers of his so-called fraudulent business practices

- YP

[View Quote]
[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 4:00am

Well, BBE is free to complain to, and ambivalent told me that, but of course you need a
response - I just emailed her and asked if she did got any response, my guess is she didn't yet.

- YP

[View Quote] regards

Glitter in Australia

[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 4:14am

First of all, litter kitty (thanks AlphaBit!), I am a guy, second, I wouldn't defend evil.
Insanity says that the hosting AND sale of products could not be refunded due to the 30 day
refund policy. Ambi says [I think?] it was less than 30 days, therefore she contacted the BBE. A
response from the BBE, or some other form a proof. Do they have innocence before PROVEN guilty
in Australia? Well, seems in the NG's it is innocence before rumored guilty. I am simply saying,
and my reason for defending Insanity, is that he is innocent! Now, give some proof (valid
non-word-of-mouth-or-a-persons-story kind of proof), which would prove, that he may be guilty.
If it appears he his guilty, I wouldn't think that me defending him made me look like an idiot,
I would nonetheless feel proud I defended innocence before proven guilty which exists in my
country (USA).

- YP

[View Quote] YP is confusing the hosting with the sale of products ... two seperate rip
off events YP ... read the story before you defend the criminal.

[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 6:15am

Let me make an example... Bob's Birdhouses makes birdhouses. Bob's birdhouses has a contract
stating no refunds after 30 days. You order a custom birdhouse. You are told it will take 45-60
days. When the birdhouse is done, the Bob steps on a roach. You then cancel your birdhouse and
want a refund, well, can't get a refund according to contract. You lose money because you got
pissed off for Bob stepping on a cockroach.

- YP

[View Quote] (G)litter


[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 5:51pm

Insanity told me he said it would take 6 or so weeks to finish the avatars, if which is true,
and you sent your money in advance after you ordered and after 30 days, regardless of how long
it took to make them, if it was after 30 days, and you cancelled, you can't really expect a
refund and he told me he was almost finished them.

- YP

[View Quote]
[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 6:02pm

What the hell are you talking about? It was after 30 days, Insanity was almost finished them. If
Insanity had given a refund he himself would have lost time and money. Insanity said he would
finished them regardless if she cancelled. Regardless of your consumer guidebook crap, there are
laws protecting business's too, a judge would look at this and be on Insanity's side. Most
business's doing custom products require you send in money before work starts.

- YP

[View Quote]
[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 6:09pm

Insanity told me he would finish them regardless if she cancelled, so maybe he just might.

- YP

[View Quote]
ok I'm done pondering....hehehhehe just a thought here.....
Filmkr....If you are not returning the moneys cause you've put too much time
into the avatars....then why not just give them to her since they must be
almost complete? it makes no sense to say "I've put too much time into
them to refund her money", then have nothing to show for your time. This
just stikes me as questionable.

Leo :) aka BinaryBud
[View Quote] what i demanded a refund of is the $160 i paid him in advance for 5 avatars,
which he never delivered. he refuses to refund my money, and he refuses to
deliver the avatars. that's more than a 'dishonest factor' -- that's a
crime -- it's called fraud.
[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 6:11pm

Regardless of the existence of a contract for the avatars, you cancelled when most of the work
was complete, if he had refunded you, his business would have lost money.

- YP

[View Quote] check the facts before you run your mouth

Jun 27, 2002, 8:38pm

no, I mean if he refunded you after most of the work was finished, his choice was to put it up
for public sale or free, but since it was custom he may not want to do that. If he refunded you,
one could say you took his time just as easily. Nothing you can say would justify him needing to
refund you.

- YP

[View Quote] (note to self. Nominate: Write in: Most imbecilic post in an active worlds
newsgroup: Young Phalpha)


[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 8:40pm

Btw, how is my post imbecilic? It appears to be a perfect example of the use of human logic. If
you do wish to nominate me, be sure to use the Cy Awards nomination form, but you might want to
change imbecilic to logical. :)

- YP

[View Quote] (note to self. Nominate: Write in: Most imbecilic post in an active worlds
newsgroup: Young Phalpha)


[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 9:47pm

Laws vary state to state, and I doubt you'd find anything as to direct as to make Insanity
fraudulent, a judge would look at this, see that the client cancelled when work was almost
finished and expected a refund, the judge would be in favor of Insanity. There is nothing I am
missing :) If you do find laws, it might apply to stuff that is already made, not custom made.

- YP

[View Quote] No Av's sent..... I.E. no delivery.... plain and simple, as the facts stand and the law
recognizes,
this IS fraud.....

Jun 27, 2002, 9:53pm

Actually I haven't paid him a penny. I am just looking at the facts and anyone else who would
look at the facts would realize he doesn't owe you a penny, if he owes you anything its only the
avatars, but you seem to not want them, that is not his fault. I don't buy products from him. If
a business had done fraudulent practices towards me, I would make a complaint to the BBE or
other legal possibilities, not have everyone believe my hearsay. I'm glad it's amused you :)

- YP

[View Quote] lmao. i can see why insanity wants you for a friend. lmao. how much has
he bilked you out of? convinced you that you had to pay him, without giving
you any goods, or 'his business would lose money'? or 'take his time'?
ROFLMAO. i bet you're his favorite customer. oh my god my stomach hurts
from laughing. thanks, YP. i needed that.


[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 9:58pm

Your example is quite wrong buddy :) Your example compares service to custom made product. He
had the product almost finished, your service was never done, so you keeping the money is fraud.
Him keeping the money is not fraud, only thing Insanity owes ambivalent is her avatars which he
spent time on, but, she does not want it. If she requests them in a few months, but does not
deliver, he might then be guilty of fraud.

- YP

[View Quote] Think of it like this......

If I was hired to install a computer network for a customer, Took payment from them, then never
came
back on the day I promised to. They called for months, wondering when I was going to do the
installation. finally they informed me that they were cancelling the contract and wanted their
money
refunded. I call back and say NOPE.... I'm keeping your money, because it's past 30 days ( or
whatever ) And I was almost ready to come do the job, I've purchased all the materials, done all
the
necessary planning and hardware research, etc. etc. . is this NOT fraud ? They never took
possession of, or recieved said services or goods. Therefore I AM guilty of fraud... HAD I
actually
come and began the installation, and they DID recieve services or goods, then things change..
thats
where litigation or arbitration comes into play..... you can't say it's not right just because
you
think that's unfair of the customer or because my business is going to lose money.... It's very
simple... I am in business, If I DO this, my rear is going to end up in court...... the reasons
some people DON'T pursue legal recourse to being defrauded are generally due to their ignorance
of
the consumer protection laws, the small amount of money lost, or the exorbitant legal fees
amassed
during such litigation....... this is where dishonest "providers" many times, get away with such
crimes.......

just because you dont like it, or think it's not nice, really, honestly doesn't mean a
thing.....
the law is the law...... that's just the way it is

JB

[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 10:02pm

I can read quite clearly without your capitalized words, no need for them. I have realized the
contract for avatars didn't exist; however if you'd read a few posts above, you'd find out she
would still be out of her money because she cancelled when the work on the avatars was almost
done, I was wrong, but my point still stands that it was her fault she lost her money.

- YP

[View Quote] JB



[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 10:07pm

There is hundreds, possibly thousands of hospitals and health centers in the US, two hospitals I
know of only let you know that information over the phone if you have proof you are a relative
or friend. Also, not every hospital has a cardiac care unit, you should know that, so possibly
calling all hospitals in the area might not have had him, where I live the closest hospital with
a CC unit is Silver Spring or DC, which is about over an hour drive from Frederick.

- YP

[View Quote] You may choose to disbelieve, that's your right and priviledge, but I'm saying it's true....
from
experience.......

JB

Jun 27, 2002, 10:11pm

BBE = BBB

[View Quote] - YP

[View Quote] lmao. i can see why insanity wants you for a friend. lmao. how much has
he bilked you out of? convinced you that you had to pay him, without giving
you any goods, or 'his business would lose money'? or 'take his time'?
ROFLMAO. i bet you're his favorite customer. oh my god my stomach hurts
from laughing. thanks, YP. i needed that.


[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 10:13pm

Your almost finished avatars are located on his harddrive because you had cancelled delivery,
remember? :)

- YP

[View Quote] > 2. Never refused delivery of avatars.
yup you did. if you didn't, where are my avatars?

> libelous comments
libel involves lying. i haven't lied.

the person has seen
> the avatars she had ordered and approved of their texturing and added
features
now that is an outrageous lie. i never saw any added features. you told me
you were trying to tack curls on their heads, and couldn't get it right.
you made references to 'improvements' of the fairies, but other than the
curls, never even told me what those other features were. then you told me
you had 'lost' the fairy files, and would have to start over again. you
never again told me you were doing any work on the fairies of any kind.

> with exception of one avatar . She claims nothing was ever done.
uh yeah. i claim nothing was ever done on it cause you those were the words
out of your very mouth -- that you had not done any work on the scorpion
king avatar, but you 'thought you were getting your thoughts together'.

> is that the person sends such vulgar e-mails, no one would care to read
the> trash.
oh yeah. gosh. what was it again? let me look it up. ah. here. you
must mean when i said you could take all the newsgroup posts you told me you
have been collecting and shove them up your... oh. that's it. i used the
heinie word. gosh. i'm sowwy.

if I > recall, stated she would never even accept them if sent to her.
yeah i'll accept them. so long as they are completed as ordered, discussed,
and agreed to. here -- i'll even go you one better -- i'll even take $160
worth of non-custom avatars of my choice. just say the word. i'll pick em.
you send em. i'll send you a statement that i am satisfied.

allow us a counter> suit for all the slander and libel as well as the
intentional interference with> business relations of our customers among
other things.
oh dear god. slander and libel are based on LIES that cause damage. TRUTH
that causes damage is not prosecutable in any way shape or form. so because
it is the truth, and i can prove it, i can freely say, verbally or in
writing, that you defrauded me out of $160. doesn't matter if it gets your
panties in a wad. doesn't matter if you lose every customer you have.
because it is the truth, and i can prove it,

> the person has violated licensing rights by sharing the avatars with
other> worlds. Therefore we are owed licensing fees for those avatars she
distributed> unlawfully.
blatant lie. i sent one avatar to one person for 10 minutes to test it.
that is not 'sharing with other worlds'. that's a 10 minute test. you said
it was fine. i have the chat log. he deleted the avatar after the test. i
sent you confirmation. i have that recorded too.
the other avatar i sent to someone is the one i bought from you specifically
for the purpose of giving it for a gift. you said that was fine. in fact,
you said that was kind. i have that recorded too.
now an example of a license violation is that you sent one of my custom avs
to someone as a gift to use in their world. not to test. not with my
permission. THAT's a license violation. now you understand the difference?
luckily, the person recognized what was happening, and deleted the av from
her world.

Jun 27, 2002, 10:54pm

Whoa, really? my god, I never knew that, my context of that word was "Evidence based on the
reports of others", stop insulting my intelligence, you will get nowhere, and get nothing, and
like it

- YP

[View Quote] hear·say Pronunciation Key (hîrs)
n.
Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
Law. Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and
therefore generally not admissible as testimony.


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


hearsay

adj : heard through another rather than directly; "hearsay information" n : gossip (usually a
mixture of truth and untruth) passed around by word of mouth [syn: rumor, rumour]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University





Therefore what ambivalent says is NOT "hearsay" plain and simple...... as you're hearing this
FROM
"the personal knowledge of a witness" and directly from the party involved...... i.e.
ambivalent
( THE person who was involved in the situation ) She is making a statement of facts, from her
point
of view..... or you may call it an accusation...... but it just is not hearsay.....

JB

Jun 27, 2002, 10:58pm

Well, mine didn't. I think your wrong on that, a hospital telling whether you are there or not
to a stranger would seem very unlikely.

- YP

[View Quote] --Bowen--

[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 11:14pm

Where in your example did you say that? There's a big difference of consultant/engineer to a 3d
modeler. Knowledge and experience are rather equivalent, knowledge is gained by research,
experience is gained by action. Experience of course I can't get on my own yet, but knowledge I
can. Don't give me that age shit, you have no more of a degree in business law than I do.

- YP

[View Quote] Anyway, You have to realize that there are people here with REAL business experience... we're
not
all teenagers....... maybe once, but that was a long time ago ;O)

Jun 27, 2002, 11:16pm

They also look at your drivers license and ask your relation, if you say your some person
wanting to see if he's really there to see if he's faking being in the hospital, you know as
well as I do they would raise some eyebrows.

- YP

[View Quote] --Bowen--

[View Quote]

Jun 27, 2002, 11:22pm

When all you have is first person account and a chatlog, "hearsay" would seem a right word
regardless of it meant to not be first person usage.

- YP

[View Quote] My replies aren't meant to be insulting, just statements....... I'm sorry if you felt insulted,
it
wasn't intended........ and my use of capital letters is targeted to put emphasis on a
particular
word...... much as you'd emphasize certain words when you speak....... in real life.......

JB

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