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May 29, 2004, 5:37pm

>But seriously CarolAnn, the entire thread Cy Results was total crap,

Yep-not what I expected for sure :-(


>political part was only a fragment compared to the BS produced mostly by
>Alaskanshadow and Rossyboy. I find it strange that a few political comments
>irritated you more than 100 posts of shouting and insulting?

I know it seems that way. It's not so-I came to read about the CY's and was
disappointed. Your's was just the last comment I read and the one I took
most seriously. Seiya was inconsiderate heading her post "CY Results?". She
should have headed it "CY Rants" maybe. I probably would not have read it,
it wasn't what I was looking for. (I did find Rossyboy's point by point
comments mildly amusing once I found out it was satire-I'm not sure why.)

Now I'm doing the same thing I complained about, but I really appreciate
efforts of the participant's and those who are truly dedicated to impartial
observance of AW member productiveness. And I certainly think very highly of
those who work very hard-and then turn around and give at least part of
their products (Objects, avs, bots, etc) away to AW for free.

I agree about Mars-it was a dirty trick...but not about tourist access in
general, even though it was nice to have, and a good public relations thing.
Giving it, then taking it away was sure bad for their image. Free samples
are just that-and we cannot expect or demand them. Nothing wrong with them,
for sure. I cannot expect the same, or even nearly the same, as the rich guy
down the street. Nor do I think the guy who has no funds who lives down the
other street should have what I work hard to afford (except basic human
necessities-he should have those imo). I have a lot fewer AW products than I
used to for those very reasons-I am not willing or able to pay for them.

>If you chose to make it into a political debate, that you must have a right
to do.

I hate political debates, let's talk "CY's" and "Mars" here, like the
heading says.

>At some point one have to choose if one want to me a nationalist or
>humanist; one cannot be both.

Yes I can. I want to try to keep it in my r/l only. I do believe what can be
broken can be fixed with enough time, effort and care, just like with AW. We
can hope.

>I think it is normal that people speak about politics in their everyday
>life, why would AW be different?

Ok, but maybe we should head those posts "Political debate".


>Is there any other topics one should avoid? Maybe weather, becuase someone
>might have a bad experience about a tornado or someone might like rain,
when
>some other hates it; it would be a potential topic for flames.

You speaking about my tornado is not insulting to me, unless you say I
deserved it.

>This list could be made as long as possible; every topic can be turned into
a flame,

>or then again, one can talk about things, even hard topics, in a more
constructive way.

I agree with each segment of that sentence. Let's eliminate the first part
and/or work harder on the last part. But maybe under a very clearly defined
heading.

>I would suggest you ignore comments that you do not like or then say your
>opinion; as you said , you do not want this to be a serious place, so why
>take the BS so seriously?

But the comments were under "CY" (the only reason I opened the NGs) and
"Mars". You know I am compulsive and had to read the whole thread out.



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Jun 22, 2004, 6:37am

Yep, your statements about voting, etc, are so true, and if anyone was
watching-really watching it all and not just the worst stuff, they'd see
that that process is happening right here(US), right now.

And the rest---in many cases it was European and other "foreign" arrivals
who brought those slaves to sell to the newly formed US. And who did
actually sell many of those Africans into slavery? Many Americans did it for
sure, but they were often European born.so, since they were just as close to
their "foreign" heritage as to their adopted American citizenship, who shall
we say is most guilty? Who else took advantage of the slave trade? Often it
was other Africans who sold their own countrymen. Slavery originated as a
joint effort, and often by those not born on US soil, but whew! We who have
been Americans for generations finally ended it! Not that it should ever
have taken place, but look where it eventually got the descendants of some
of those slaves..some of the top spots in the present US government. Is that
irony or what? Will you (not you Wizard, but the NG in general or commander
sisco) still argue for those slaves and their descendants? Care to comment?
But it was mostly their effort that got them there, so obviously the
opportunity is open to others besides WASPS. (The acronym was used so I
could make a distinction for this post.)

And if the US killed all the Native Americans, why does my US state have so
many Gambling parlors? "Native" Americans have been given such liberal
gaming rights and licenses here that all the casinos and gambling facilities
in my state are owned by them, and they have non-ending contracts. I don't
care of course, I sure don't want one, but don't say we killed them all off.
(And wait-come to think of it-where did I find a Native American to be
married to? He sure seemed alive at the time, as did his entire well-to-do
family.) By the way, that poor treatment didn't begin with long-standing
Americans either, but by those just off the boat from other countries.

So- to those who are still spreading blame for those things after all these
years, to many who weren't even alive when the worst of it existed, don't
forget to grab your share. Then it would be much easier to own up to mine
(ours).

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Jun 22, 2004, 7:00am

yep, yep! Just what people need to understand-and I've noticed that you have
a great knack for research...either that or you are smarter than the average
lioness. People have a responsibilty to make an effort to really understand
each other, not just by hearsay (and the culture and history of others)
before they can say even one word against them (we included, of course).
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Jun 22, 2004, 3:31pm

Of course...I should have said you had a great knack for research AND were
smarter than the average lioness :-) My problem here is-some statements
affect me so much that I need to reply Right Now, and don't have the
patience to stand back and hold my breath before replying. I do try very
hard to only state things I know are true (from previous education or
research) and leave out the things I am not sure of, though. Anyway, that's
why I try to only read or reply to these NGs once in a blue moon, except
when I want to find info about a distinct AW issue (read only)...there's
lots of good help here. It's nicer to see people's knowledge than their
anger. (I know-I should take a page from my own book)
By the way...blue moon: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bluemoon1.html It
has it all. Internet research capability IS fantastic when your head is
clear.
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Jun 22, 2004, 6:48am

I'd be glad to donate $100 (if I had it) for the opportunity to "listen to"
your crazy-but really funny-brand of humor, but tomorrow is not 23 July
here, only June 23-so ppl have another month to decide. Luckily for me, if I
couldn't donate, I don't have to worry about the punishment anyway. Good
luck in any case.

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Jun 22, 2004, 6:26am

You're right. On the internet-we take what we get. It is not a democracy,
just as you said. The US is, however, and if it works the way it should,
when things aren't going well, it can be changed by its citizens, and that
is what I see might be about to happen soon. But it's not an anarchic
society (in general), so it needs to take time to do it in an orderly way.
It doesn't happen "NOW", it is a process. There is no perfection. If people
want perfection they need only to die and go to their idea of heaven, if
they have one. If they don't, well, they'll just have to look at it like the
internet-and take what they get. But- Richard needn't have said: "No one
likes people who are full of them selves ie the USA." It implies ALL of the
people in the USA are full of them selves. He could have stopped with just
"people who are full of them selves", who could not agree with that?

He also said "Learn to spell english properly, if your gonna steal a
language atleast
learn to use it properly." But earlier we were belittled for NOT "stealing"
the metric system. Silly idea-stealing a language (and his statement there
was not exactly used properly either ie spelling, grammar).

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Jun 22, 2004, 3:37pm

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Jun 22, 2004, 7:07pm

[View Quote] Feel free to post this for me, as my citizenship has expired -- it is a
very well thought out rebuttal... didn't get a chance to proofread it
though before I fired it off:

The language English is for the most part, whole within all it's
dialects. The Americans have their own unique dialect (which includes
the slang), while British share the majority of their dialect with
Australia, Canada, and India (excluding slang). Now, there is no
difference between the written English that cannot be ascertained by
someone with a brain. The American dialect was meant to correct the
British dialect in the exact pronunciation of the word, and using the
correct standard English ruleset. Usually by removal of silent letters,
such as the ever famous u in honor, color, et al. (there are a few
other rules such as the S->Z principle which isn't really that important
-- but is more correct when following the rules of standard written
English).

The American dialect was also developed to seperate the United States
from the mother country. Rather than develop a whole new language, we
just outfited the language to what we saw fit. Just like we did to who
ruled our country. It is our dialect after all, not England's.

Although the American accent is flat, it is still a very unique accent
and there are extreme variations in it. One need only look within the
state of New York to see the almost complete inversal of the accents.

I think England should be less concerned with how well some Americans
use the American dialect of English and more concerned with how to cook
without using beans and eggs together. Or just beans on anything, for
that matter. The Germans should've dropped cook books on you. Now, go
eat your chips and stop acting like a zealous, British, political undergrad.

To argue the United States stole the English language is like arguing
the strawberries are always fresh when wild. Oh, by the way Richard, if
you're going to say "US" make sure to use the proper punctuation, ie
"U.S." as that's the _proper_ method in standard written English. I'm
not saying I'm perfect with it either, but it is an abbreviation, you
must treat it as such. Only the American dialect allows for you to use
no periods for abbreviation. But since most of us are on the internet,
we tend to use the easier way; and that includes the American
abbreviation system. Well... at least I'm not aware of any rule in the
Queen's English that allows for you to abbreviate without a period.

--Bowen--



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Jul 24, 2004, 2:37am

And I would have to add that he treads on dangerous water by assuming that a
good many of the natural citizens of this country are not as savvy as he is,
though (or because?) his residence is by the grace of a green card. Perhaps
many of us plan to use the bloodless voters ballot rather than some bloody
citizen uprising? Isn't that preferable? If only it could always be that way
everywhere. Hu, what do you want anyway? We don't need to read Active Worlds
news groups to have our eyes opened to anything besides what should be
contained here. I am sure that anyone who cares enough has his or her own
plan of action and this "insight" will not sway a single person even a
little bit. The others that don't care are probably laughing their avs off.

Hu, I welcomed you when you acquired a green card to stay in this country,
(why then did/do you want one?), not once but twice, but your foreign-born
status does not mean you can see things we cannot see. You have been here
how many years now? And it is by choice, you have options yet you chose to
stay. I am happy to see many people enjoy visiting or moving to my home, but
don't eat at my table then tell me the milk was curdled. I can see that and
will do something about it without being told. People resent having the
obvious pointed out to them, and then be expected to jump. If it is not
obvious to them, resentment is for unwanted criticism. So it is best leave
it to forums where it is sought out. Because you live so close to me, my
guess is that you and I are basically privy to the same public information.
I, too, am fully able to decide for myself what should and can be changed,
and what part I can and will play in it.

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Jul 24, 2004, 6:00am

Hi hu, My responses are intermingled with your questions in the most
friendly fashion.




We've already heard that elections are coming up. This particular one
happens every four years, no more than 2 terms each, for good reason. This
news group is made up of so many who don't live in the US that you shouldn't
even plague them with that tip.






Me? What have I done? I don't even believe in war of any kind. I am not
allowed (nor do I want) to kill my neighbor if I disagree with him, why
should Any government be? ANY. I just think there are ample forums out there
where people want to discuss this stuff. Let's you and I discuss what you've
been building lately. I remember you were quite good at it. You and
Dreamtime had some interesting things with unique concepts going there. I
hope you are still enjoying them. AW should be like a swimming pool or a
hiking trail..a place to unwind and relax until you have to get back into
r/l for another day of.real life.



government have
is



I didn't think it was, and didn't take it that way, but I'd prefer my
editorials on the editorial page.



that y'all hold so dear.




Nope. I didn't take it personally, nor did it sound anti-American except
that you didn't give us credit for enough intelligence to question what goes
on around us. And we shouldn't be discussing it here.







No doubt about it. Or anywhere that people are suffering. I felt that way
before March 2003 though, including about the civilians of Iraq. I've done
something actual about it-pitifully inadequate though it was. But let's
discuss it in private real life or even private AW worlds among interested
others.






No need. As you said, our pain is trivial.



defend



I have to say-I have always thought that was kind of silly myself. But as
you know, those borders were drawn long before you and I came along to set
them straight. Everyone seems to have them. I kind of get the feeling that
making borders is an almost ingrained instinct of man. We do it in all sorts
of ways; cities, countries, shower curtains, dog houses, private towns and
worlds in AW.




Ok hu. The whole world shares in that guilt in varying degrees, though, but
big business can be heartless. (as can individuals).






No hu, we live in Wisconsin. You KNOW where my milk comes from.



up a massive 30% of the worlds recourses. There are many more statistical
facts that I will not bring up here



ok. (then I don't have to respond I really hate being guilty of my own
complaint.)






I've been out of the clouds and in the trenches for years. Don't
underestimate my awareness.




Right. Let's see if it works.






If the Gov't is out of control-the vote means nothing. If the vote can
correct it, the Gov't is not out of control.




Cheers back,

CarolAnn

Jul 25, 2004, 12:32am

Drac, diplomacy suits you so well. As a reward you'll get no long-winded
retort from me, just a "Hi, how've you been lately :-)"
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Jul 25, 2004, 12:34am

Andras, about that bet- I know you weren't speaking to me, but when you
said:



>The USA is his/her (Hu's) country too - you have no right to claim it as
only yours.



(How is this so? He certainly is welcome to live here and air his views in
the proper forum, but if he wants an full-fledged part of it, he must pay
taxes and become a citizen, just like anywhere else. Then I also think he
should vote, and should encourage others to, in another forum where people
are looking for wisdom of this kind. If he already became a citizen when I
wasn't looking, I humbly apologize to him and welcome him again, and -out of
AW- will join him (in spirit) in trying to make things better) But my main
point was about your bet-



> I would bet my one year salary that Hu gave more to our country than %95
of the population!



Did you mean OUR country (USA) or your country? If you meant USA, can I take
that bet? The request is no reflection on Hu at all, what he does for this
or any other country is his own business, but I am so certain you are
incorrect that I am willing to "risk" the challenge. (As long as you mean
members of the population old enough to walk, talk, and make it to the
bathroom on their own.)

And while I'm on the subject of that group of people, were you comparing the
most highly skilled immigrants to the "least" Americans among us (every
society has them, you know) when you said:



well educated engineers, doctors, teachers, etc? Did you ever check the
requirements for an immigrant visa (sorry, it is called now permanent
residency :)?



And then when you said:



head :( I wouldn't talk about the teens that can't read and write even
after a college graduation.
I witnessed once when the electricity was out that the cashier burst in
tears because she couldn't calculate the change from a $10 bill for a $8.47
bill (she was 19 years old as she told)



Wouldn't it be more fair to compare our homegrown highly skilled with highly
skilled immigrants, and then compare the opposites, such as:






with the 20+ year olds that cannot compute figures in their heads? (Keeping
in mind, again, that every society has them.)



As far as the most valuable immigrants to us and the strict immigration
standards we have, I believe it is similar to the standards most countries
set. Should we not invite skilled practitioners into our society as long we
also allow and accommodate those who need more than they can return? Should
we welcome immigrants who come simply for the medical care, but then not
recognize the value of the immigrant doctors who heal them? Should we
welcome the oppressed, poor, homeless, fugitives, but not openly encourage
those others to come who would add their expertise to make this a better
place for the needier group?



And what about the issue of our president, and the upcoming elections when
someone stated that the voters, not Hu, would decide? (As if it needed any
explanation) You said:






Do you already know what we will decide? Yes? Then please let us in on it.
No? Then why do you act as if we aren't acting fast enough for you? If you,
Hu, or whoever else wants to have a particular outcome, become a citizen
like I'd have to do to vote in your country. Don't try to alienate those who
WILL decide by implying they are all too stupid or incompetent to make a
rational decision. Do you know a country that has not had pitfalls,
downfalls, pratfalls or less than ideal moments in its history? Then send me
a brochure, I have a vacation coming up.



Most sincerely,

CarolAnn

Jul 29, 2004, 4:18pm

Hu, look, I understand your concern with the conditions of the world
and the future for all its citizens, (arguably all reasonable people have
the same concern), but do you see at all what I mean about this being the
wrong forum? Lines like "personally im tired of hearing about this shit" and
"stuff it buddy...." and "Screw off Hu" should give you the idea that you're
wasting your breath here, and that you may even be putting off people you
say you are trying to reach, people who just might listen to you in a forum
where they seek out your kind of insight. Hu-do you sincerely want to help?
Take it where you absolutely know it will do some good. You and Drac have
implied that, because people aren't responding to you the way you think they
should, that they are stupid, and/or are apathetic. Well, just who are you
that they should oooh and aahh over information from you when they just
might be politically aware and active in their r/l, and come here for a few
minutes, or even hours, of head-clearing? I am serious.not kidding. How is
your info more important (please know, this is a serious question, not a
slight) than that which is already available to them that we should respond
favorably or else be considered fools? Drac mentioned something about people
who "keep voting" for Bush...well news to him I guess but he's only been in
that office one time. People who come here might want a break; they pay for
it, and might only resent strangers coming in here telling them how to
think. They know where to go for their political nourishment. If it isn't
the "right" place, someone in a virtual world's news group is not going to
convince them that he knows something they don't know. **People tend not to
listen to those who continuously tell them they are dense and uneducated.**

You say that at times like these even a playground's newsgroup needs to
be politically enlightened? (Or however you said it a few posts back). Then
the whole entertainment industry should be shut down 'til things get better.
When it gets to the point of people being compared to ostriches with their
heads in the sand because we don't get up and rally around an uninvited (for
political purposes only, Hu) political speechmaker in a virtual universe's
forum, it is going beyond ludicrousness, and extremely annoying and
insulting as well. I told you, we (the general population) have as much
brainpower as you do; we are just using a different part of it in here. (Is
it still allowed? If not, all recreational activities should come to a halt
until things get better.)

Also, it is extremely frustrating when some always choose to use the
argument that the original immigrants stole the pre-US territory from the
"native-Americans"! Either that or the 150 year old slavery issue is brought
up. If you do not see the difference between then and now on those issues,
then you haven't done enough homework to make enlightened judgments. Do you
realize how far removed from those events any living US citizen is?? A good
portion of us did not even have our roots planted here back then. You don't
also consider the more recent (though still distant past) population who
abolished and do not allow such ancient practices. None of us had any more
to do with that than you, a present US resident, did!! Just like you did not
have anything directly to do with the prisoner colonies that made up the
original, non-aboriginal (there's a poem in there somewhere) population of
your own Australia. It would never even occur to me to cut down Australia
(or you) because it's present non-native population was once made up
exclusively of thieves and murderers. Bring up present day when you must-in
the proper place, and I won't bring up leper colonies, slave colonies, what
the ancient Romans did, the 40's in Germany, all those reams of historical
stuff. We should learn from it and continue to make reparations for those
early evils until everything is right, but every succeeding generation
should not be considered eternally guilty (how long?) for the sins of the
past. That would do more harm than good. My own community was very
instrumental in helping runaway slaves; do I get to take credit for either
thing 150-200+ years later? And funny-why do those few bring up the bad and
never the good, there was nothing in those 200+ years? Sounds kinda
one-sided to me.

Until you offer to sit down, one on one, with the very AW cits that you
have been trying to reach, and compare our real world concern (and real life
activism--things we actually physically do for the good of whomever we can
reach), then maybe it would be more fair to just drop it from this place.

Why do I occasionally come in here and read this stuff? Guilty admission
here: I have my coffee, have a few minutes to kill, and wonder what could
possibly be said next. Same as anyone who does, I guess. Like reading Ripley
's Believe It Or Not.

Respectfully, CarolAnn

[View Quote]

Jul 31, 2004, 5:20pm

Hmm, although I personally think the US is ready for a change of leadership
to a more wise and responsible one, I think it would be interesting to see
someone try to counter the posts of Ferrucio's under this heading , (which
seem more general and not necessarily only about the present
administration). As long as the thing is going on and on anyway. He's been
very reasonable and intelligent in all his statements here, (read each
carefully and you will see that), never mean and nasty, so someone sure
couldn't take issue with that :-). It's easy to argue with dummies, but it
should be more challenging and rewarding to debate with someone who seems to
have some insight. (that is, it should be to an equally reasonable person
with equal insight and intelligence and feels secure in what he knows.)

[View Quote]

Jul 25, 2004, 4:45am

Absolutely Xelag, your first few lines have said it so well in just the same
way I have always felt it. I was bothered only when I got to this line:



> Or must one be USA-certified before receiving a human birth right? Seems
so :(



I hope that you did not "read" that in anything I said. If you did somehow
get that impression from my statement about Hu, I need to explain that
(besided that this was not a good forum for it) I was only talking about his
not having a right to vote here. It's not an opinion, it's just the way it
works. And that is only if he is not yet a naturalized citizen. If he has
become one, then he would probably be told that he should not complain
unless he DID vote in the past (if he was able to) and does plan to vote
again. In other words, if you see a need for change, do what you have a
legal right to do to change it before complaining. And make it nice. (But
all these arguments, insults, uninformed statements or even the informed
statements here just do not seem to have solved anything at all, and maybe
takes away some of what Active Worlds could be doing for at least a few
citizens of the real world who inhabit it. My first 2 years in AW were like
that :-(

You might have read an earlier post where I agreed, in theory, with Hu's
statement about borders. Somehow the idea of kings and queens, presidents
and dictators, ownership and control all seem so depraved (I couldn't think
of just the right word here), but I guess I can see how it came to that.
Some work harder than others and deserve the shelter they alone constructed,
the food they alone harvested, etc, but for one human to have control over
another human just does not seem right. Who made the first rule? A person
comes into the world with his body and mind only, so that's where his
control should end. (But wait, his parents actually could claim ownership,
and their parents..) But somewhere along the line it was decided that we all
needed to break into small groups and have "guidance". Or we would have
anarchy I guess, but that doesn't work, either. Who has the solution? I wish
we could all have blue cards that allowed us to go anywhere in the world and
have everyone else happy to see us. Now someone will say if it were not for
the USA the world would have that.

These conversations here never help, often hurt, and cause divisions that
will be hard to heal, and besides all that-they are off-topic (including
mine). People do not come here with the sole intention of healing the world
so they see things from a very singular point of view, and the pacifist in
me gets more and more jaded each time. I am sure I am not alone.





>I have always tried to see human beings as having the same
>full-fledged rights as other human beings. Laws differ from place to
>place, I leave that to the lawmakers. But in a discussion like this,
>green, yellow or red cards have no place: freedom of speech is not a
>USA right, it is a universal right, often denied.

>Laws and regulations are needed, surely, including green cards. But
>does one realise that, in fact, the USA is populated by invadors from
>Europe, and forcefully migrated populations from Africa, and people
>searching refuge? And that, in most cases, to the detriment of the
>people that lived in the land before these invasions? So who has
>green card? Don't all people living in USA now, whatever their origin
>or status, have the right to be respected? Or must one be
>USA-certified before receiving a human birth right? Seems so :(

>Alex

Jul 25, 2004, 10:05pm

[View Quote] And how abour acknowledging children (and adults) in the Sudan/Darfar
region, Bolivia, Dominican Republic and on and on. Natural disasters can be
devastating, too. Maybe an informational wall or something with a "You Can
Help" button for some situations instead of a memorial build would be good,
if anyone came to see it or really used it anyway. (I wouldn't hold my
breath though, people find out how to help if they are really concerned).
Funds and goods DO get through if you find an agency that you trust or that
has a proven record. Or that you have first hand knowledge that it works.
The word memorial kind of hints that it is too late to help (not that we
shouldn't remember them, too). Preventing or helping to restore means fewer
and smaller memorials.

Jul 25, 2004, 10:06pm

Sounds like tonsiloths, low grade infection, and swollen glands (between
corner of jaw and earlobe?)

Just my $90 worth for a 2 minute consultation.

Meantime, hope all is well soon.

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Jul 29, 2004, 4:07pm

Under "Search" in tab controls of your browser, you can look for a
particular kind of world. And you can save your favorites by saving it in
"Teleports" when you visit, and when you chose "remember" you can give it
the description that would help you remember its features.
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Sep 9, 2004, 5:04pm

On the same note, I'm wondering how, and why, Xelag happened to run across
these webpages..you might say that's scraping the bottom of the barrel for
topics here ;-)

Interesting stuff, though. I now probably know everything I'll ever need to
know about the tissue issue, but on the other hand, is it possible that they
could improve on it? I just can't think of anything.

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Dec 28, 2004, 6:21am

I know this kind of thing has been going on forever in here and everywhere,
seems small-time, but $25 is being asked AND the messenger is being killed
(hopefully her own intent was honorable) for asking a fair question, or I
would not have thought much or said anything about it. Is there not one
person in here who thinks the question a fair one, or is there not enough
honorable people who understands the issue?

An unsolicited, undoubtedly unwanted, opinion, based 100% on fact:

Taking a character or other identifiable (often intellectual) property
directly from a private copyrighted work of fiction such as a book, movie or
song, a work not yet in the public domain, and using that copyrighted
character or other identifiable property for private financial gain, is
absolutely copyright infringement, highly illegal, frowned upon and often
legally pursued by the actual owner of the intellectual property.

Using such a well known item for one's own financial gain, knowing it is
owned by some one or some company made rich by it, is probably often viewed
by the "borrower" in about the same way as when the bank teller accidentally
gives us 100 (place your monetary unit here) too much back when we cash a
check(que) at the bank(que?). We might think; "They won't even miss it",
"They don't need it-they're rich", "they get it off the backs of the poor",
"I deserve it", "I worked for it, too", "I need it worse than them" (."more
than most"), whatever.whatever.whatever..

The chances of being found out in this small time forum by big time owners
of the property are fairly small, but I know for a fact that it is done.

Speaking of this "small-time forum", why, after all, do people here use
passwordable object paths?? Why do object owners/makers here have a right to
own their stuff and lock it up, charge for it's use, but we have free use of
the property of DreamWorks' or anyone else who doesn't know that we are
borrowing it for our financial gain? How can we sell it, but not have to own
it first? It's only an eye-ball copy? Much like when I tried to sell my
eye-balled copy of Leo Tolstoy's "War and Peace"? But anyway-you can only do
that if you have the Modification Right. The modification right (also known
as the derivative works right) is the right to modify the work to create a
new work. A new work that is based on a preexisting work is known as a
"derivative work." I sure don't think Imagine did this with any malice or
sense of "ownership" or "right", but I do think she did it without really
weighing all the possible complications. I am sure many of us are unaware of
what is called a Reproduction Right. (No-not THAT reproduction). The
reproduction right here is the right to copy, duplicate, transcribe, or
imitate a work in fixed form.

By the way-wasn't there a copyright question about AW's use of the term
"Olympics" 2 or 3 years ago? Now THAT seemed petty, but I can't remember the
details.

Anyway-just wondering if there is anyone who understands an issue that
should be as important here as anywhere. Besides, I've been extremely
impressed by some made from scratch objects, and think AW would be just as
interesting with just those.





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Dec 28, 2004, 11:45pm

I know, Lady NightHawk :-( and certainly not commented on (by me at least)
solely (or at all) because it stemmed from Imagine's post. There is hardly a
more talented person in AW, whether we're talking about the ideas that come
straight from her brain or when she's been inspired from somewhere else, as
everyone is from time to time--not a shred of offense meant to her in my
statements. Obviously anyone mentioning unsolicited controversial issues
here is about as popular as the teacher chosen to tell the 14 year olds that
they can no longer have sex play at recess. Certainly not a popular or
accepted person, considered to be the enemy and a pariah by most, kept at
arm's length by the other teachers because they don't want to suffer hate by
association (even though they too know it is true), but the information is
real and common sense says it should already be known by anyone old enough
to do the thing being warned against. (DISCLAIMER: I am NOT comparing AWers
to 14 year olds wanting sex. Any similarity between any AW members, living
or dead, and the 14 year olds in my analogy are purely coincidental and
occasionally probable).

AW's own avs and stuff? Yep, who knows if permission was asked and granted.
Once someone made an av for me (not at my request and no payment to or from
me was required) using part of my name and the body of a well-known
character.I was flattered and thought it was cute. No harm done, no loss to
the owner of the character I guess, but they sure had a right to complain if
they wanted to. Too small to even mention? Who gets to decide that? Should I
have been aware of ownership issues? Of course, and so should have the
person who made it for me as a gift. To be honest though, at the time it
never occurred to me. I'm quite sure both Imagine and I, on the other hand,
would ask that anyone using our own intellectual property (objects and
avs --I should be so talented!--, writings, stories, poems, family cookie
recipes, self-made anything, etc etc etc) should seek permission before
selling same (or derivations of) for their own financial gain. Right?

To CP: you say- "Leave "her" alone."? That's not fair, it's a legit subject
and necessary "evil" (?) even here. Not a "debatable" issue; it is what it
is. About your "fair use" comment: the term "fair use" is unique to the
United States; a similar principle, fair dealing, exists in some other
common law jurisdictions. Private use of someone else's property for
financial gain, without permission, is never fair use, fair dealing, fair
game, or any other fair thing. Seems only fair and logical, but not my idea
so please don't yell at me. What if Imagine would have been unaware of this
info, but would have wanted to be made aware of issues compromising how she
was viewed? A person should be able to share nuetral, valid information in
an information-sharing forum without fear of being ridiculed. I sure am
grateful for all I learn here, (and anywhere else) and I bet she is, too.

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Dec 30, 2004, 5:45am

Well, that wasn't directed at me, but I hope it's ok if I give a response.

First, copyright and similar issues are not black and white, but "I didn't
know" is usually not an accepted plea in a court of law, so research is
usually required. Research, to an artist, is just part of the job-and I bet
you knew that. You can be pretty sure that the companies who pay out
skillions to be licensed to sell LOTR shirts, toys, greeting cards, etc etc
etc, don't want anyone else to be able to get in on it for free, no matter
in how small a way.

I personally can't say for sure if your stuff would pass all the tests, but
since you seem to have a talent that doesn't require someone else's
imagination to feed it (just inspire it sometimes), and since LOTR is simply
one man's version of an elvin fantasy, why can't your creations be strictly
products of your own elvin fantasy? Forget where you saw the structures and
people that your buildings and avs represent, name them something 100% your
own and make sure the eyes, doors, whatever-are strictly your own look. Did
you know that George Lucas's Star Wars' were inspired by LOTR? Hard to see?
Not entirely; it's there if you look. But no one could ever possibly call
him a thief because of it. Not sure if the difference between simple
inspiration and something that could be considered copyright infringement
are clarified, but please understand the question is just a question, not an
accusation. By the way-interesting, semi-related, website;
http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/Copyright.htm

CarolAnn

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Dec 30, 2004, 5:55pm

Of course. The issue isn't exclusive to Imagine, and whoever is responsible
for the Grinch avatar also is accountable for what they produce. I only
commented there because a legitimate question was asked, and the response to
the asker seemed angry. Maybe there was more to it than I knew-like conflict
between the asker and askee. If so-I wish I wouldn't have been reading that
day, because it would have been hard not to comment on that important issue,
something I myself have to deal with from one side or the other sometimes,
but I'd rather I wouldn't have seen it if there was some hidden friction in
the question.

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