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=?iso-8859-1?q?eep=b2?= // User SearchNon-Bot Ideas?Oct 7, 1998, 2:27am
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <yawn> Still bots, dude. I'd much rather have REAL AW improvements like better collision detection, TRUE sound mixing, the clipping problems fixed, better 3D card hardware support for faster frame rates, etc. All this bot stuff is just fluff to me. If anything, this bot stuff should be implemented IN AW itself, without having to use an SDK. Any shmoe should be able to do it without having to learn C and have their own world. I should be able to do this stuff in the action field along with everything else. [View Quote] > Just a couple of ideas. You know one of the frustrating things I am dealing with is trying to envision all the 3d work that I will be getting into to make these bots really work. Much of the work is on the visual side. Building the appropriate gestures, adding new avatars to take on new rolls. Adding objects that can be moved by bots. I back ground is programming so writting the intellegence is no problem. My learning curve is creating objects. Oh well time will tell. --------------6D055DAB629D32D7FE589AA3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML> <yawn> Still bots, dude. I'd much rather have REAL AW improvements like better collision detection, TRUE sound mixing, the clipping problems fixed, better 3D card hardware support for faster frame rates, etc. All this bot stuff is just fluff to me. If anything, this bot stuff should be implemented IN AW itself, without having to use an SDK. Any shmoe should be able to do it without having to learn C and have their own world. I should be able to do this stuff in the action field along with everything else. [View Quote] --------------6D055DAB629D32D7FE589AA3-- Non-Bot Ideas?Oct 7, 1998, 7:28pm
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah yes...and just HOW many people IS that, hmm? I count 27 different people who've posted messages in this newsgroup since it was first created. Has Roland taken a poll to see just how many people are actually USING the SDK? I doubt it. And I can guarantee you that only a SMALL % of the TOTAL AW population is. Where are the priorities? COF just seems to like to play and not really get any TRUE development done. How long do you think AW will last like this? [View Quote] > If you dont have anything constructive to say, go away. this NG is for sharing info and helping people with sdk. --------------FA070580E191BFDC3333AC89 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML> Ah yes...and just HOW many people IS that, hmm? I count 27 different people who've posted messages in this newsgroup since it was first created. Has Roland taken a poll to see just how many people are actually USING the SDK? I doubt it. And I can guarantee you that only a SMALL % of the TOTAL AW population is. Where are the priorities? COF just seems to like to play and not really get any TRUE development done. How long do you think AW will last like this? [View Quote] --------------FA070580E191BFDC3333AC89-- SDK updateOct 13, 1998, 5:17pm
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Add more non-bot application ideas... [View Quote] > property is still somewhat confusing. If anyone has any suggestions on how > I can improve the docs in this area, please let me know. --------------253EF5DE971B9CDDF666DE5C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML> Add more non-bot application ideas... [View Quote] --------------253EF5DE971B9CDDF666DE5C-- Anyone willing to help a fellow Programer in NEED? :)Oct 16, 1998, 4:08am
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right. So, basically, you're bullshitting as usual? So when're you gonna "hack" AW, eh? Hack the planet, you wanna-be! <flick> [View Quote] > Nevermind... I forgot, I have a friend who has Visual Studio 6.0... > That'll do for me, heheeh... --------------365703036103A224C8EC56C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML> Right. So, basically, you're bullshitting as usual? So when're you gonna "hack" AW, eh? Hack the planet, you wanna-be! <flick> [View Quote] --------------365703036103A224C8EC56C0-- Anyone willing to help a fellow Programer in NEED? :)Oct 16, 1998, 10:35pm
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Uh huh..sure it was, sport. Hack the planet, d00d! Are you an elItE WARez hACkER d0oD? Gee, your name is in HACkeR eLItE WarEZ MIXed caSe text so you must be! Golly... [View Quote] > If you say so... Eep...And yes this was me, I'm not proud of it anymore though, cause it was wrong :) --------------E5E7A679FB90B948D0427D1D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML> Uh huh..sure it was, sport. Hack the planet, d00d! Are you an elItE WARez hACkER d0oD? Gee, your name is in HACkeR eLItE WarEZ MIXed caSe text so you must be! Golly... [View Quote] --------------E5E7A679FB90B948D0427D1D-- bot request/additionJul 26, 1999, 9:43pm
If one of the existing bot programmers (like Faber or Ima) could add this to their bots, that'd be great. Otherwise, I guess yet another bot program. Anyway, what I want is a bot to be able to change multiple objects properties (actions/description) at certain times at the same time. For example, I want my streetlights in Hole to dim, turn off/on at certain times, simulating a day/night cycle.
Faber's Preston doesn't let me do this too easily or well so I need something more complex. Faber also doesn't seem to want to work to enhance Preston's functionality, so its development stagnates much like AW's does, which is a shame (annoying, actually). This is also why I think bot functionality should be built-in to AW instead of having to rely on external, 3rd-party developer programs. If anything, a more enhanced script language should be added to the actions to allow for SDK functionality within AW. Collision DetectionDec 12, 1998, 5:20pm
A sphere would be way too complicated when just the cube bounding box can be used.
[View Quote] > For a bot to avoid objects that stand in its way, it probably must do an > aw_query of its surroundings. AW_EVENT_CELL_OBJECT will give us the > AW_OBJECT_MODEL for the objects in adjacent cells. Perhaps the simplest > strategy is to treat an object as a sphere when calculating the space it > occupies. This means that to detect collisions the bot program must keep > and access a list of models and their MAXSIZE attributes for each world > the bot might inhabit. It would be nice if instead the AWAPI had an > AW_OBJECT_MAXSIZE attribute that was available in the context of > AW_EVENT_CELL_OBJECT. Collision DetectionDec 13, 1998, 4:16pm
Dunno if it's even implemented in the SDK, but RenderWare uses bounding boxes (cubes), and AW uses RW, so... Although AW's avatar collision isn't even based off avatar bounding boxes, but a 1mx1m square in the middle of the avatar. Lame, eh? Hence why really small avatars (<1m³) can't get close to many things horizontally. It really kills the effect of having a small avatar, too. :/
See http://tnlc.com/rw/rwx.html#collision for more info. [View Quote] > Where is this "cube bounding box" in the AWAPI? > > If the server has access to the cube bounding box for each object, then maybe the SDK > should make it available, or at least the dimension that is the maximum one. The max > dimension, or sphere idea, just would be simpler or faster to compute. I think a lot > of people want bot avatars to have the option of moving around objects, like other > avatars. Collision DetectionDec 15, 1998, 6:01pm
Uh, Andras? What's "coos"? Do you mean "coords"? Heh...I've been meaning to ask you ever since your readme.txt in rwxtract.zip. ;P
[View Quote] > info. If you insist to get all 3 coos, try rwxtract.exe from www.storage.co.hu/tools.html. You'll get the bounding box dimension Bot avatars...Dec 24, 1998, 8:03pm
Bah...that's what you said before 2.0 beta. I'll believe it when I see it...
[View Quote] > I have plans to significantly revamp the entire avatar handling mechanism > (including adding such things as custom avatars.) Hopefully this is > something I will be able to get to in the next version after 2.1. > Presumably, the custom avatar feature alone, if done properly, would allow > you to create custom avatars for your bots that no one else could use. Build 12 availableDec 31, 1998, 5:47pm
Just for kicks, have you actually been working on the next AW build and will you actually release anytime this century?
[View Quote] > Just for kicks, have you tried dereferencing the value that comes back in rc > as an int pointer? bot ideasJan 2, 1999, 8:30pm
Weather bots: moving clouds (maybe even a morphing algorythm or two to give the effect of actual clouds), storms (rain, snow, hail, cats and dogs, whatever), fog, etc. Woo! Sure would look more realistic than animated textures on polygons that go too fast or are too jerky if repeating frames...
Re: PRESS RELEASEJan 25, 1999, 7:48pm
Yes, considering when I tried to view more than 1 day of trading the 1st and 2nd day after Activeworlds.com's supposed first day of trading, I kept getting messages about data not being available or something...yet now it goes back to even before '92 (http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=AWLD&d=my)! Perhaps the data is for Vanguard Enterprises, Inc. but since they changed their name to Activeworlds.com, their trading history was kept. <shrug>
[View Quote] > I'm quite a bit puzzled. I thought activeworlds.com only exists since last friday, and from your link I found this one > http://chart.yahoo.com/c/2y/a/awld.gif > which shows quotation from quite a long time before. Is it the qutotation including the former company which bought COF? It seems it has been doing quite badly during the past months. account deleted! (and this post deleted!)Feb 8, 1999, 2:38am
What the hell is up with Rick and JP?? Did they delete my account because of the press release misconceptions I posted yesterday?
Most of what was in the message had already been posted in here before anyway! I really tire of this shit. I will be going to the Better Business Bureau (again), and I'm sure now that AW is public the BBB will be MUCH more likely to actually DO something... FILEINFO Utility for .IDX and .DAT filesFeb 8, 1999, 9:13pm
You wouldn't be trying to crack the world .dat files for their models now would you, Jim?
[View Quote] > http://www.faircom.com/download/fc_download.html > > at at at http://www.faircom.com > > "The secret of our portability is in releasing full C source > code. With c-tree Plus, your C programmers need only to > develop applications once, and port the same source code > to virtually any environment with no source code changes." > > at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at > > . <DIR> 01-01-98 12:39a . > .. <DIR> 01-01-98 12:39a .. > ART <DIR> 01-01-98 12:39a art > WORLD DAT 13,312 02-08-99 11:13a world.dat > WORLD IDX 4,096 02-08-99 11:13a world.idx > PROPERTY <DIR> 01-01-98 12:39a property > FILEINFO EXE 162,180 02-08-99 11:09a fileinfo.exe > 3 file(s) 179,588 bytes > 4 dir(s) 6,799.52 MB free > > C:\Active Worlds\cache>fileinfo world.idx > > c-tree Plus IFIL and DODA Extraction Utility. > > world.idx is an index file. > > Index node size - 512 > Logical file size - 4096 > Physical file size - 4096 > File mode - 64 - ctFIXED WRITETHRU > > Index files have no DODA or IFIL structures. > > at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at > > C:\Active Worlds\cache>fileinfo world.dat > > c-tree Plus IFIL and DODA Extraction Utility. > > world.dat is a variable-length data file. > > Logical file size - 12525 > Physical file size - 13312 > File mode - 68 - VLENGTH WRITETHRU > > Error getting IFIL, error = 401. > The FairCom ODBC Driver(TM) can not be used without the IFIL structure. > > Error getting DODA, error = 401. > The FairCom ODBC Driver(TM) can not be used without the DODA structure. FILEINFO Utility for .IDX and .DAT filesFeb 8, 1999, 11:09pm
For the WORLDS' models, zippy. Fail english grammar class?
[View Quote] > I guess I am confused. Who is they (or their) ???? > > In many of your postings you seem to take an "us and them" position. Who is "them" ? > > Have you ever considered that "we" are it ? > [View Quote] Bots vs 'usual' AvatarsFeb 15, 1999, 9:37pm
Um, Byte, it's not too hard to get the object server of the world you just entered, you know. Just look in the cache directory and see which directory is the newest. Duh.
[View Quote] > It is close to imposible for Roland to put collision detection into the SDK its self because he will have to allow the SDK to retrieve object paths which could be used by hackers or object stealers to get the address to a worlds object server, and plus there is cases when you do not need collision detect, but others you do... Bots vs 'usual' AvatarsFeb 16, 1999, 6:11pm
I must question this, as if the ability to uncompress objects in encrypted ZIPs is allowed, what's to prevent SDK developers from getting them?
[View Quote] > Roland, the AW browser must already have the code to do the object downloading and uncompressing in it. Is it not possible to include some of this in the SDK. This would give you the advantage of maintaining the same cache algorithms. There is just no rendering of the objects once you get them. Bots vs 'usual' AvatarsFeb 16, 1999, 9:02pm
If avatars only have collision detection based on http://tnlc.com/rw/rwx.html#collision (see "Avatars"), how are bots (still avatars) going to have any more ADVANCED collision detection?
[View Quote] > the gain would be bots acting a lot more "natural", or a bot which uses completely different methods for 3d display than the browser... Bots vs 'usual' AvatarsFeb 17, 1999, 5:50am
Well, I would rather have Roland implement better avatar collision detection, which then bots can take advantage of through the SDK. Avatars should at LEAST be using their bounding box for collision detect, not a bounding box that can't go smaller than 1m³. And gravity needs a little work too. When running (Ctrl and arrows) off things (hills for example), it seems like I am on the moon or something because I end up coasting much further than I should before actually hitting the ground. Then, if I stop moving, instead of momentum carrying be forward, I just fall straight down. This is physically inaccurate. Then of course the next step is to allow world control over the gravity setting (like allow the m/s to be changed; isn't gravity like 8.5m/s or something on Earth?).
Anyway, bots should be able to, because they're just avatars, be treated like any avatars (which already have collision detection). [View Quote] > Yep, point taken, you are right. Bots probably won't have a more advanced collision detection. > > Compared to actually no object recognition at all (and there for no collision detection whatsoever) it would still be a huge improvement :) > > but pure theoretical, bots that have access to the complete rwx file for both avatars and objects, could for sure implement their own detection, which can be much improved in comparison to the aw browser. > > access to the rwx files and maybe helper functions to parse them hands all those posibilities over to the bot programmer. > > right now there is nothing. and copyright issues might make this case stay that way. > > Eep² schrieb in Nachricht <36C9F918.BE2BE497 at tnlc.com>... > avatars) going to have any more ADVANCED collision detection? world light source controlFeb 17, 1999, 9:55pm
Is there any way to get control over the world light source through the SDK and have it move through day/night cycles? I tire of static light sources in AW...
world light source controlFeb 18, 1999, 5:07pm
[View Quote]
> Roland has repeatedly said that light sources would slow things down =
immensely (similar to the warning he gave regarding avs in scene). Howev= er, I really don't see why we couldn't be given control over our one ligh= t source. You know, I've found Roland often uses that "slowdown" excuse when he doe= sn't want to actually DO something. I remember asking him over a year ago= about the 32-bit z-buffering DLLs: "Oh no; they'd slow things down too m= uch so they're out." Then there was the 256x256 resolution texture DLLs: = "Nah, way too slow and they'd hog up memory. They're out." Then the avata= rs in-scene: "Would slow things WAAAAAAY too much." And we can't forget a= bout uping the cell data amount: "Performance would slow to a crawl." (Al= l quotes paraphrased.) Yet, gee, most of these things have been implement= ed in AW and although they DO slow things down a little, surely not to th= e overexagerated proportions Roland thought. And I have a piece-of-shit A= MD-K5-PR133AR (99MHz) CPU! On much faster P2's these "slowdowns" are not = as noticeable. This is why programmers need perspective from other people= (testers; quality assurance) while thinking about and trying to implemen= t these things. Control over at LEAST the STATIC POSITION, INTENSITY, and COLOR of the wo= rld light source is NOT going to hinder performance one iota. Now a movin= g (dynamic), dynamically multi-color-changing (gotta simulate sunrise/sun= set, right?), dynamically intensity (brightness) changing WOULD probably = make things a bit slower, but would look that much more cooler. And we ca= n't forget about moonlight and multiple light sources (streetlights, flas= hlights, lanterns, lighters, fires, torches, vehicle headlights, fireflie= s, etc, etc, etc=97oh and the light source object! Too bad RW doesn't all= ow light source declarations in RWX; imagine being a "being of light". he= h). in-AW object creation/editing?Mar 18, 1999, 6:07pm
Does the SDK allow in-AW RWX (object) creation/editing, specifically, visually, allowing to create objects within AW itself vs in an external program (Modeler, text editor, etc) then do all the humdrum mundane crap of zipping (with or without encryption), uploading to object server, etc.? I'd like to be able to do this and if someone is willing to create such a program (don't call it a bot; that's getting lame and overused/abused as a term), I will be willing to help design how it would work.
in-AW object creation/editing?Mar 18, 1999, 11:54pm
Woaaaaaaah, there, pardner. I just want a way to create objects in AW. I don't want some idiotic bot doing it (just one look at the stupid censor-eject bot tells me bot programmers don't know how to design correctly, which usually tends to be the case with most programmers in general).
I'd be interested in checking out your terrain generating program, however. Where can I get it? [View Quote] > Interesting that you should mention this, as I was thinking about posting > something similar as a bot idea. In short, yes it can be done. I've already > written a terrain generating program that outputs RWX scripts (objects), > including zipping and uploading them (easy for me since my web server is > local, but one could include or call ftp functionality). > > The bot idea includes two concepts that would be interesting to explore in > the AW context: > 1. A bot that creates objects based on a series of types, but with random > variations, and > 2. Simple genetic programming to aid the bot in creating objects that are > aesthetically pleasing to the viewer > > So, ArtisteBot hangs out in its virtual workshop and begins by deciding what > kind of object it wants to create from a palette of types that it has been > provided with. . .perhaps deciding that it will create an object made up of > multiple intersecting spheres shot through with long, thin pyramids. It > plugs random values into the appropriate parameters, calls the functions, > generates, zips and uploads the resulting object to the (private) world > object path. Then it displays the object and waits a while to see if it gets > any feedback from nearby entities. Based on the feedback it either > increments or decrements the probability that it will generate another > object using the same engines and the same combination. Then it chooses and > generates another object. . .and so on. > [View Quote] in-AW object creation/editing?Mar 19, 1999, 2:48am
Dude, what crack are you smoking?? It probably wouldn't INTEREST me?? Modular groundmaking programs most certainly DO interest me! I've been waiting for COF/AWCI to release their's for over a YEAR now. Lucio's is interesting but I don't have Excel. If your program can create modular ground, I'm DEFINITELY interested in it! I would like to get a copy of this from you, if you wouldn't mind.
[View Quote] > I don't have any plans to make the terrain generator program public, mainly > because I'm too lazy to spend the time creating a logical, much less > friendly interface for it. It probably wouldn't interest you, but you can > see examples of its output in D'Magia, especially at 12N 5W (and moving > westward) and at 7S 14E (moving up and southward). There is a series of > modular hill pieces that are available for download from the D'Magia site > http://www.homestead.com/dmagia/down01.html ) that were created with the > program. I've not mentioned them previously since I've not taken the time to > write any instructions, but they should be relatively self-explanatory. An > area created using them is in CVDS at 27S 23E (and moving to the SE). bot request/additionJul 26, 1999, 9:43pm
If one of the existing bot programmers (like Faber or Ima) could add this to their bots, that'd be great. Otherwise, I guess yet another bot program. Anyway, what I want is a bot to be able to change multiple objects properties (actions/description) at certain times at the same time. For example, I want my streetlights in Hole to dim, turn off/on at certain times, simulating a day/night cycle.
Faber's Preston doesn't let me do this too easily or well so I need something more complex. Faber also doesn't seem to want to work to enhance Preston's functionality, so its development stagnates much like AW's does, which is a shame (annoying, actually). This is also why I think bot functionality should be built-in to AW instead of having to rely on external, 3rd-party developer programs. If anything, a more enhanced script language should be added to the actions to allow for SDK functionality within AW. MULTIPLE SELECTINGDec 23, 1998, 11:37pm
They get younger and younger...creepy. Shouldn't your parents be monitoring what you do on the Net?
[View Quote] > I am new. I am also 10 years old. I wish that i could some how get a free > world or citizenship!!!I agree with you princess tia Mirrors.Jul 25, 1998, 4:06pm
http://www.worlds.net
[View Quote] > So tell us how to get to this WC. Do you have the URL? [View Quote] "Free" Camera Movement with the mouse ala Games like quake 1-2/unrealJul 21, 1998, 11:26pm
Something like that. See the Tomb Raider series for another example. You =
hold a key down ([Insert]) and, using the arrow keys, can pan the 3rd person perspective camera around. You can also look around while running/walking= and holding down the [Insert] key=97but only left and right since you're alre= ady holding the up or down keys to go forward or reverse. But I doubt AW will add something like that anytime soon. COF has much mo= re basic problems to work out... [View Quote] > I'm not sure if I'm following this one correctly. We have a mouse mod= e.. > where you can turn and walk with the mouse, and look up and down with t= he > keyboard. > > Is what's being requested a second mouse mode?.. Where you move around = using > the keyboard, but can also turn with the mouse, and can look up or down= with > the mouse instead of it moving you forward and backward? "Area's full"Aug 3, 1998, 11:54pm
No, builderz, advanced commands would NOT be lost. And, um...no, Dth. Lea=
ve the lame wizard crap out of this. Action commands can EASILY be simpli= fied in the Object Properties dialog with some basic GUI dialog design: Optional: a pull-down menu with the names of all objects (RWXes in ZIP fi= les) in the object server's "models" directory. Hopefully this wouldn't h= ave to be updated each time an object was selected. A pull-down menu with the triggers: "create", "activate", and "bump". A pull-down menu with the commands: "animate", "sign", "URL", "picture", = "sound", "noise", "visible", "warp", "teleport", "solid", and "name". If "animate" is selected, (optional) a pull-down menu with the name of al= l textures (JPG files) in the object server's "textures" directory could = appear. Hopefully this also wouldn't have to be updated each time an obje= ct was selected. Otherwise, a text entry field (edit box) where the textu= re name would be entered could appear. If "sign" is selected, an edit box where the sign text would be entered c= ould appear. Then 2 buttons with a "color" label above: "background" and = "foreground", where, clicking either, would bring, say, the color selecti= on dialog that appears in the menu: Options | World... | Backdrop Color |= "Change..." button option. If "URL" or "picture" are selected, an edit box could appear (with "http:= //" in front, but not IN the typing portion, since the "http://" is not n= eeded, but assumed) where the URL is entered. Additionally, with "picture= ", an "update" checkbox with a small edit box for the # of seconds could = appear. If "sound" or "noise" are selected, (optional) a pull-down menu with the = name of sounds (WAVs/MIDs as ZIP files) in the object server's "sounds" d= irectory could appear. Otherwise, an edit box where the WAV/MID could be = entered could appear. If "visible" is selected, a pull-down menu with "me" and "other" could ap= pear. If "other" is selected, (optional) if other objects are named in th= e area=97cell?--a pull-down menu with their names could appear. Otherwise= an edit box where the name of the other object's name could be entered c= ould appear. Also, a pull-down menu would appear with "on" and "off". If "warp" or "teleport" are selected, an edit box for the north-south coo= ridates, and east-west coordinates (with appropriate pull-down menus for = north-south and east-west), as well as altitude and direction edit boxes,= could appear. Similar to this: _# edit box_ <"N"/"S" pull-down menu> _# edit box_ <"E"/"W" pull-down men= u> "altitude": _# edit box_ "facing": _# edit box_ If "solid" is selected, a "on"/"off" (or "yes"/"no") pull-down menu could= appear. If "name" is selected, an edit box where the name would be entered could = appear. Multiple actions could be done with a "More" button, bringing up the trig= ger and command pull-down menus, with the argument edit boxes or pull-dow= n menus to follow, as needed. A "Fewer" button would remove extra command= s. The commands could be abbreviated to however AW could interpret them, wit= h as few bytes used as possible, but the GUI presentation of doing object= properties would remain simpler. [View Quote] > I think you'd need to have both text boxes (for those who prefer the > current method) and a wizard-like dialog box for commands... perhaps a > little button underneath where the 'Action' box is with a waving-wand > icon could be pressed to pop up something for commands made in much the= > same way mail filters are done in most mail programs (Netscape, Eudora,= > Outlook, etc.) > [View Quote] |
